Question about the Kais and their role

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
Kreldin
Newbie
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2010 12:48 am

Question about the Kais and their role

Post by Kreldin » Fri Jul 09, 2010 4:59 pm

I've never read the manga, so my knowledge of the Dragon Ball universe is pretty much limited to the anime and stuff I may read around the internet, from sites like dragonball.wikia.com. As a result I'm a little confused about the Other World deities like King Kai and so on.

From the English dub of Dragon Ball Z, I'm told that the King Kai we know rules over the North Quadrant, and the other there are East, West, and South Quadrant overseers, with the "Grand Kai" overseeing the entirety. I suspect that a Quadrant is a huge section of the universe, but I could be wrong. However, sites like dragonball.wikia.com say that King Kai rules the North "Galaxy," and so forth, indicating that there are only four galaxies in the universe... which strikes me as strange. Is this an error on their part, and if so, where did that come about?

If the former is true, and they are indeed quadrants of the entire universe, it makes sense that the Grand Kai is essentially the overseer of the entire universe. But then, I've always wondered where the Supreme Kai and the Grand Supreme Kai fit in. If the Grand Kai already oversees the entire universe, what more do the Supreme Kai do? dragonball.wikia.com has it as the Supreme Kai overseeing a large section of the universe, coinciding with their statements that the regular Kai just oversee a single galaxy... meaning there must be more than four galaxies (and therefore four Kai) if a Supreme Kai rules over an entire portion of the universe. Is this just a big error on their part, and if so, what exactly do the Supreme Kai do and what is their relation to the other Kai and the Grand Kai?

Finally, I've always wondered just how strong Grand Kai is. Was there any ever indication of this?

User avatar
Herms
Kanzenshuu Admin Emeritus
Posts: 10550
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 6:40 pm
Location: Jupiter
Contact:

Re: Question about the Kais and their role

Post by Herms » Fri Jul 09, 2010 5:09 pm

Here’s an explanation of the whole “4 galaxies” thing I wrote. And, well, I’ll just quote a big chuck of it:
The Series
The first time galaxies are ever mentioned in the series is when North Kaio talks to the Great Elder during SSJ Goku and Freeza’s battle. Previously, Kaio had always simply been called “Kaio”, and the guide oni who took Goku to the Serpent Road explained that Kaio “stood above all the gods in the universe”. However, Kaio introduces himself to the Great Elder as “the Kaio of the North Galaxy” (北銀河の界王/kita-ginga no kaiou; in Viz he says “god” instead of “Kaio”). There’s no real plural in Japanese, so “North Galaxy” could also possibly be “North Galaxies”.

It’s not until the Boo arc that Kaio’s line is expanded on. While Goku trains in the afterlife for the 25th Tenkaichi Budoukai, the South Kaio appears to observe his training. Rather than “galaxies”, the South Kaio talks about “Areas” (エリア/eria). Goku is said to be the first or second strongest warrior from the North Area, and South Kaio mentions his own South Area (in Viz, “Area” isn’t used, and they simply say “the North” and “the South”). It’s not clear how Areas relate to galaxies. Earth is also said to be in the North Area, so Areas aren’t just some division for the afterlife.

Shortly after South Kaio appeared in the manga (chapter 428, July 12th, 1993), all 4 Kaio appeared in the Afterlife Tournament filler arc, which premiered July 18th, 1993. In this arc, it’s explained that there are four Kaio, who rule the North, South, East, and West Galaxies, respectively (but the lack of a plural in Japanese kicks in again here: West Kaio, for instance, could be in charge of either the West Galaxy or West Galaxies). Above them is the Dai-Kaio, their ruler. It seems that Toriyama was fairly involved in this filler arc, since he drew a map of the DB cosmos for the first time so that it could be used for this storyline, and personally did the Dai-Kaio’s character design. In fact, the Dai-Kaio is mentioned in the anime about three months before he is in the manga: it’s not until Shin’s true identity is revealed that Piccolo explains that the Dai-Kaio is the one who stands above the 4 Kaio (chapter 440, October 11th, 1993). So Toriyama was almost certainly involved in coming up with the back-story for the Kaio for those filler episodes.

The Guidebooks
So basically, the series itself establishes the each Kaio rules the galaxy/galaxies of a cardinal direction, and that there are also “Areas” involved somehow. Toriyama’s map of the DB world labels the universe as being divided up along the 4 cardinal directions, but says nothing of galaxies. Essentially there are two possibilities: that there are 4 galaxies (NSEW) that are also called “Areas”, or there are 4 Areas (NSEW), that contain many galaxies. The guidebooks all go with the first option (when they don’t just leave the whole thing as vague as the manga, that is): Daizenshuu 7 twice says that there are 4 galaxies, and DBZ Son Goku Densetsu says so too. Daizenshuu 7 isn’t terribly helpful on explaining what if anything is the difference between a Galaxy and an Area: it describes both as ways the gods divide up the universe along the 4 cardinal directions in order to govern it, but says nothing on how the two terms relate to each other. Since it says that galaxies in DB are simply administrational units used by the gods, and therefore have little if anything to do with the real-world astronomical term, perhaps “Area” is the more accurate term that the Kaio use when talking among themselves (like with North and South Kaio), while “galaxy” is a more descriptive term they use when talking to the universe’s inhabitants (like with North Kaio and the Great Elder)?

The Kaioshin
With the Kaioshin, originally there’s just supposed to be one, who Piccolo says stands above even the Dai-Kaio, and serves as a god to the gods. Very shortly thereafter, when explaining about Boo, Kaioshin himself says that there used to be 5 Kaioshin, but all the others besides him were killed by Boo. It’s not until just before the final battle with Boo that Kaioshin expands on this: the 5 Kaioshin were organized just like the Dai-Kaio and Kaio, with 4 Kaioshin for the cardinal directions, ruled by 1 Dai-Kaioshin. Kaioshin himself was the East Kaioshin. The manga doesn’t say just what significance these cardinal directions have, however.

Where do the Kaioshin fit into governing the DB universe? It’s never explained in the series, but since the Kaioshin have exactly the same titles as the Kaio, and Toriyama’s map shows the universe only divided into NSEW with no sub-divisions, the simplest explanation is that they also govern the 4 galaxies/Areas of the universe. The obvious question then is what point do the Kaioshin serve? The manga only gives the vague explanation that they are the gods of the other gods, but the daizenshuu and SEG offer a little more to that, saying that while the Kaio only govern the universe, the Kaioshin govern both the universe and afterlife as well. What’s more, Toriyama explained in the SEG that the Kaio and Kaioshin are members of a race called Shinjin (Pit People), who are born from the fruit of the Kaiju Tree (World-Tree). Kaio are chosen from among regular Shinjin, while Kaioshin are chosen only from special Shinjin born from a rare golden Kaiju fruit. So the division between Kaio and Kaioshin is based on this natural division in the Shinjin race.
The term "quadrants" is exclusive to the Funi dub. I'm not too familiar with their dub, but I'd assume the term is simply equivalent to "galaxies"/"areas".

For some more info on DB's god system, here's another old post of mine.
Kanzenshuu: Is that place still around?
Sometimes, I tweet things
We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason.

Post Reply