Giran vs. Cymbal

[CatouttaHell]

This is Giran from the Anime filler where he fought, and actually managed to hit Tambourine. Piccolo Daimao said that Tambourine was many times stronger than Cymbal and was confident in sending him off to kill the murderer of Tambourine. So, who wins? My money's on Giran.

[Chibi Gohan]

I'd consider Cymbal better than Giran, but thats just my opinion.

[Fox666]

Hmm, Giran is not that weak in the manga. He caused some trouble for Goku in the 22nd Budokai (c'mon, Goku was a match for Kame-sennin!). He also took a kick from Taubourine in the face without much damage.

Off-topic: this even makes me wonder if Mr. Satan could handle Goku opponents in the 21st Budokai (Giran, Nam, etc)

But Cymbal was troublesome for Yajirobe (who had an even fight with 16 years old Goku) so he should be quite strong.

Piccolo Daimao said that Tambourine was many times stronger than Cymbal and was confident in sending him off to kill the murderer of Tambourine.

I wouldn't take "many times stronger" literally. It should be the same as Piccolo saying he wasn't using half of his power against Goku. Or at least it won't work in terms of battle power.

Either way, I would bet on Cymbal.

[dbgtFO]

Hmm, Giran is not that weak in the manga. He caused some trouble for Goku in the 22nd Budokai (c'mon, Goku was a match for Kame-sennin!). He also took a kick from Taubourine in the face without much damage.

It was in the 21st Tournament.

Off-topic: this even makes me wonder if Mr. Satan could handle Goku opponents in the 21st Budokai (Giran, Nam, etc)

He couldn't or at least there's no reason to think he could.

But Cymbal was troublesome for Yajirobe (who had an even fight with 16 years old Goku) so he should be quite strong.

Nah, Cymbal couldn't do shit to Yajirobe once the chubby samurai became serious.

I wouldn't take "many times stronger" literally. It should be the same as Piccolo saying he wasn't using half of his power against Goku. Or at least it won't work in terms of battle power.

Of course it won't, because it contradicts the all mighty Daizenshuu and we can't have that...

[rereboy]

Of course it won't, because it contradicts the all mighty Daizenshuu and we can't have that...

Not really... If you take those kind of statements in terms of battle power, it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense when we think about the the battle power numbers given to us by the manga later on.

For example, the manga gives Roshi a battle power of under 200 in is relaxed state (can't remember exactly what number it is since I can't check my manga right now) by having Bulma use a scouter on Roshi after the Radditz fight. And the manga also gave Piccolo Jr. a battle power of under 500 in his relaxed state during the Radditz arc, I believe. So, Piccolo Jr. in his relaxed state, in terms of battle power, is only about 3 times stronger than Roshi's relaxed state.

So... If Cymbal was at least as powerful as Roshi relaxed state (or even somewhat weaker), Tamborine, being many times stronger than him in terms of battle power, would be at least comparable to Piccolo Jr. in his relaxed state during the Radditz arc. Which is ridiculous.

The Daizenshuus have nothing to do with this.

[dbgtFO]

Of course it won't, because it contradicts the all mighty Daizenshuu and we can't have that...

So... If Cymbal was at least as powerful as Roshi relaxed state (or even somewhat weaker), Tamborine, being many times stronger than him in terms of battle power, would be at least comparable to Piccolo Jr. in his relaxed state during the Radditz arc. Which is ridiculous.

Who says Cymbal is that strong anyways?
He's probably around 21st TB participants...

The scouter detects all hidden ki(seen with Nappa and Vegeta), so Roshi's 139 number is Roshi, when at Full Power(you know that buff form he has).

The Daizenshuus have nothing to do with this

Daizenshuu 7 says that Piccolo Daimao(young)'s FP = 260, while Goku and Tenshinhan at the 22nd Tournament are at 180.

Piccolo Daimao(old) beat the same 180 Goku quite easily with not even ½ of his power, which contradicts the 260 and or the 180 value, since Full Power Old Piccolo would be way beyond 360, based on Goku's 180.

[rereboy]

Of course it won't, because it contradicts the all mighty Daizenshuu and we can't have that...

So... If Cymbal was at least as powerful as Roshi relaxed state (or even somewhat weaker), Tamborine, being many times stronger than him in terms of battle power, would be at least comparable to Piccolo Jr. in his relaxed state during the Radditz arc. Which is ridiculous.

Who says Cymbal is that strong anyways?
He's probably around 21st TB participants...

Even if Cymbal was just 50 in battle power (an average human is 5), if Tamborine is many times stronger than Cymbal (like 3, 4 ou 5 times), Tamborine would be 150, 200 or 250 in battle power.

And if Tamborine is 150, 200 or 250 in battle power, young Piccolo Daimao would be much stronger than that, since young Piccolo Daimao stated he more than doubled his power compared to his old self, which was already much stronger than Tamborine, which would make young Piccolo Daimao have, at the very least, 500 in battle power (even if Cymbal was 50, Tamborine 150 and old Piccolo Daimao 215, for example, which are very low numbers, more than double the battle power of old Piccolo Daimao would take us to around 500).

Meaning that young Piccolo Daimao would have to be stronger than Piccolo Jr. repressed state or as strong as him, if we take these statements as refering to battle power. Which is ridiculous.

Its simply a matter of logic and it has nothing to do with any numbers than the Daizenshuu provides.

[dbgtFO]

Its simply a matter of logic and it has nothing to do with any numbers than the Daizenshuu provides.

How can it be a matter of logic, when I can basically make his FP as low as 20 without contradicting anything?

Face it, there's no proof of how strong Cymbal really is, so saying that it's ridiculous trying to tie those statements in as referring to Fight Power, when there's no given range for Cymbal is ridiculous in itself.

Also Young Piccolo Daimao never stated his power doubled once becoming young. It was Old Piccolo Daimao, who stated, he wasn't even using ½ his power against Goku.

[rereboy]

Its simply a matter of logic and it has nothing to do with any numbers than the Daizenshuu provides.

How can it be a matter of logic, when I can basically make his FP as low as 20 without contradicting anything?

Face it, there's no proof of how strong Cymbal really is, so saying that it's ridiculous trying to tie those statements in as referring to Fight Power, when there's no given range for Cymbal is ridiculous in itself.

Also Young Piccolo Daimao never stated his power doubled once becoming young. It was Old Piccolo Daimao, who stated, he wasn't even using ½ his power against Goku.

If an average human is 5, then the lowest I can have Goku when he meets Bulma is 15 or 20. Are you telling me that Cymbal is that weak? Suit yourself, even if that doesn't make sense to me.

Btw, even if Cymbal was 20, assuming that Tamborine was 4 times his power (many times), Tamborine would be 80. If Old Piccolo Daimao was almost double that, he would be 150 (notice that I'm not even making Old Piccolo Daimao be double or more than double than Tamborine, which I logically could). And if young Piccolo Daimao is more than double that, he could be 335 (notice that I'm only making him 35 points over the double), which is already close to Piccolo Jr repressed state or "non-powered up with a makankosappo" state of when he fought Radditz.

So, even with Cymbal's battle power illogicaly low, it would still make Piccolo Daimao's battle power too close to Piccolo's Jr to my liking. It just doesn't make sense because the author didn't make the battle power system fit with previous power statements.

[dbgtFO]

I have at Goku at 10, I see no problem with that value, since regular Earthlings can't control ki anyways.

The thing is, Cymbal was created to look for Dragonballs not to fight, so there's no such thing as a required minimum for his power compared to the super human characters. All he needs is to be way stronger, than regular Earthlings, who ki wise are at 5.

So Tambourine ends up 3 times that = 60, while I have less than ½ of Old Daimao at 80.

And if young Piccolo Daimao is more than double that, he could be 335 (notice that I'm only making him 35 points over the double), which is already close to Piccolo Jr repressed state or "non-powered up with a makankosappo" state of when he fought Radditz.

Piccolo Daimao is not twice his old self...

I thought I made that pretty clear in my two previous posts...

[Kiyza]

This is one of the reasons I don't like battle power discussions in general. (Unless you're making lists that are supposed to be edutaining like many of the people in our thread for it do) It's just difficult to fit in statements from earlier parts in the story, things like how Piccolo Daimao says he's not even using half of his strength, strikes me as a little odd if you take into account that while young, he's at 260 and Goku at the time was 180. At half of his strength, while taking into account that he's older, wouldn't you think that he'd have a higher battle power? It's just when you examine it closely that I feel it really starts to make less sense. Of course, you could always say that, for the sake of argument, battle powers don't always correspond exactly with multiples and percentages, and there might be a steep cliff between different levels of strength when you're dealing with lower battle powers.

At the end of the day, though, I think that, for the sake of argument, it would probably be best to just ignore battle powers in this situation, considering we're never actually given numbers for Giran or Cymbal anyway. Instead, it would be better to analyze what's been said about their individual strengths, like how Tambourine is apparently several times stronger than Cymbal.

[Herms]

It's just difficult to fit in statements from earlier parts in the story, things like how Piccolo Daimao says he's not even using half of his strength, strikes me as a little odd if you take into account that while young, he's at 260 and Goku at the time was 180. At half of his strength, while taking into account that he's older, wouldn't you think that he'd have a higher battle power? It's just when you examine it closely that I feel it really starts to make less sense.

While I never tire of pointing out that both in-universe and out-universe battle powers were never supposed to be some internally consistent or reliable RPG-like system, I think in pre-Raditz cases like this we could try and rationalize inconsistencies by arguing that the characters simply aren't thinking in terms of scouter numbers. After all, why would Piccolo's idea of "half my power" correspond exactly to "half of what a scouter would read by maximum BP as" when he's never even seen a scouter in his life?

[CatouttaHell]

I agree with dbgtFO, Cymbal really doesn't have to be strong. He was created to hunt for the dragon balls while Tambourine was created to kill all of the strong people in the world before they could learn the Mafuba. I don't think Piccolo Daimao actually thought of the fact that somebody strong could be in possession of any of the dragon balls.

Off-topic: this even makes me wonder if Mr. Satan could handle Goku opponents in the 21st Budokai (Giran, Nam, etc)

My personal opinion on this is: hell no. I honestly don't even think Mr. Satan could beat Blonde Lunch, let alone somebody in the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai.

But Cymbal was troublesome for Yajirobe (who had an even fight with 16 years old Goku) so he should be quite strong.

Yajirobe just had no idea what to expect from him, as he didn't seem to have met any strong guys before Goku and Cymbal. When Yajirobe got serious he pretty much cut Cymbal in half so fast Cymbal didn't even notice at first.

I wouldn't take "many times stronger" literally. It should be the same as Piccolo saying he wasn't using half of his power against Goku. Or at least it won't work in terms of battle power.

Cymbal doesn't have to be very strong. Piccolo Daimao's plan seemed to just be Tambourine taking care of killing all the strong guys in the world while Cymbal safely flew around retrieving the dragon balls while encountering opposition limited to random weakling humans.

[rereboy]

Cymbal put up a good fight against Yajirobe, who was on the same level as 22nd tournament Goku, and was able to dodge his attacks and make him hit the ground, besides making him resort to his sword.

Yajirobe, after realizing he is strong, even says "what a weird day... I mean, two guys that strong...", directly comparing him to Goku (yes, now I have my manga).

The fact that he didn't need to be that strong to find the Dragon Balls doesn't really matter when this evidence exists. Cymbal was not that much weaker than Yajirobe who was pretty much as strong as 22nd tournament Goku. Implying that Cymbal is anywhere near the level of Goku when he meets Bulma doesn't make much sense.

And dbgtFO, I`ve checked and in fact young Piccolo Daimao just said he powered up considerably. And you are also right in saying that Old Piccolo Daimao said that he wasn't even using half his power against Goku. I was confusing things.

So, let me correct my thinking...

Even if Cymbal is 20 (which is illogical but whatever) and Tamborine is many times stronger than him, then Tamborine can perfectly be 4 times stronger than him. Meaning he would be 80. Old Piccolo Daimao said that he wasn't even using half his power against Goku... So half of old Piccolo Daimao's power has to be superior to Tamborine's, so Old Piccolo Daimao is more than double Tamborine's power. Meaning he could be about 180. Now, for young Piccolo Daimao, lets assume that he he is not the double of Old Piccolo Daimao but not very far from it, like old Piccolo Daimao's power times 1.75, which would be 315.

Still very close to Piccolo Jr in DBZ...

And Cymbal, like I stated, is not that low, or else he wouldn't be able to put up a good fight against Yajirobe, but even if he was, it would still make Piccolo Daimao's power too close to Piccolo Jr.
Considering that Roshi in DBZ is 139, I would have no trouble placing Cymbal close to 100. It would make much more sense than 20 when looking at his fight with Yajirobe, which would make young Piccolo Daimao more than 1000 in battle power if we follow the statements as we would with battle power.

To speak on topic... I think its clear from how he resisted Yajirobe, that Giran wouldn't last very long.

[Fox666]

How can it be a matter of logic, when I can basically make his FP as low as 20 without contradicting anything?

Yeah, and Tao Pai Pai could have a battle power of 5.1 without contradicting anything.

This is Goku vs Yajirobe



This is Yajirobe vs Cymbal



This is Goku vs Tambourine



Keep in mind that Yajirobe used his sword against Cymbal (differently from his fight with Goku) and that doesn't count for battle power.

If you want my oppinion, Tambourine is not "many times stronger" than Cymbal in terms of battle powers, but the difference is rather small (like 120 and 140 or something in that line). Of course this purely based on perception of certain fights, it's not "proof" of something.

If you want some real evidence, Piccolo said he didn't knew there were humans that could fight the demon clan (considering his reference is Mutaito and his disciples)

Piccolo Daimao(old) beat the same 180 Goku quite easily with not even ½ of his power, which contradicts the 260 and or the 180 value, since Full Power Old Piccolo would be way beyond 360, based on Goku's 180.

There have been plenty of power-ups up to Piccolo Daimao:
- Kame-sennin had 139 at Raditz arrival
- Kame-sennin developed muscles for the 22nd Budokai (which he no longer have at Raditz arrival)
- Goku and Tenshinhan were significantly stronger than him
- Piccolo Daimao used less than half of his power against Goku
- Piccolo Daimao younger power has "no comparison" to his old self

So going just by the manga, you will end up at 500 or 600 for Piccolo Daimao, if you take "half of my power" as literally battle power. But I guess no one would believe on that?

For me it's clear than when Toriyama made up the number "139" for Kame-sennin, he didn't take in consideration that old Piccolo was at least twice Goku's power at the 22nd Budokai. So I am ok with the Daizenshuu or Weekly Jump numbers.

[dbgtFO]

After all, why would Piccolo's idea of "half my power" correspond exactly to "half of what a scouter would read by maximum BP as" when he's never even seen a scouter in his life?

Piccolo knows how much ki he has, a scouter detects how much ki you have, so when Piccolo says he's only using ½ his power it would translate to the same in scouter units.
At least that's what I figured.

Yajirobe, after realizing he is strong, even says "what a weird day... I mean, two guys that strong...", directly comparing him to Goku (yes, now I have my manga).

Yajirobe says:

Chapter: 139, P6.4
Yajirobe: “Today’s an odd day…I keep running across these extremely strong guys…”

Which just means he's not used to guys stronger than normal earthlings, he doesn't actually say Cymbal is on Goku's level or anything of that sort.

If you want some real evidence, Piccolo said he didn't knew there were humans that could fight the demon clan (considering his reference is Mutaito and his disciples)

That was Tambourine who said that:

Chapter: 141, P8.4-5
Goku: “Ah! You’re pretty tenacious.”
Tambourine: “I'm…impossible…There’s no way that us Demon Clan warriors…could be done in by a human…”

For me it's clear than when Toriyama made up the number "139" for Kame-sennin, he didn't take in consideration that old Piccolo was at least twice Goku's power at the 22nd Budokai. So I am ok with the Daizenshuu or Weekly Jump numbers.

The number 139 just represents Kame-sennin's Full Power.
Afterall scouters detect all hidden ki, so Kame-sennin's normal form isn't using all of the 139, just like Nappa, Saiyan Arc Vegeta and First Form Freeza will always be measured at their highest values, even though they are not currently using their full power.

[Senzu_Bean]

The scouter detects all hidden ki(seen with Nappa and Vegeta), so Roshi's 139 number is Roshi, when at Full Power(you know that buff form he has).

Not when you physical alter your body. Otherwise Vegeta, Zarbon and Freeza's scouter reading would be 180,000, close to 30,000 and 120,000,000 respectively.

And clearly you're over-analyzing the characters sentences just to try to prove Daizenshuu wrong. (how typical!) The fact is nothing suggests "many times stronger" means "many times the battle power". Otherwise Goku would be over one million by the time he fought Piccolo Daimao. And as everybody know ki isn't the entirely of your strength.

[dbgtFO]

And clearly you're over-analyzing the characters sentences just to try to prove Daizenshuu wrong. (how typical!) The fact is nothing suggests "many times stronger" means "many times the battle power". Otherwise Goku would be over one million by the time he fought Piccolo Daimao. And as everybody know ki isn't the entirely of your strength.

Roshi's full power is never stated to be able to be hidden from the scouter, so I have no reason to think it is.
It would also be ridiculous, if Toriyama didn't show they surpassed all of his power.

And the other point, lol, so what.
Do you have a problem with people going against the non manga values, when character statements would contradict them?

Toriyama himself says that ki size and its control means everything in battle anyways and doesn't specify, if this only applies to the latter part of the story, so that's pretty much proof coming straight from the author himself that ki means everything.

[Fox666]

Do you have a problem with people going against the non manga values, when character statements would contradict them?

Do you have problem with people going against manga values, when characters statements in the manga itself contradict them...?

[ggf31416]

I think power levels are not lineal but the square or cubic root of the actual ki strength. For example if it's square:
Child Goku 10 = (10/5)^2 = 4 times stronger than a farmer
Roshi 139 = (130/5)^2= 772 times stronger than a farmer
Freeza 530000 = 11236 million times stronger than a farmer
1.3x power level = 1.69 times stronger than the opponent.
2x power level = 4 times stronger