This is depressing.

Discussion specifically regarding the "refreshed" TV version of DBZ created in Japan for its 20th anniversary, including individual threads for each episode.

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Cootie
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This is depressing.

Post by Cootie » Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:20 pm

Well, I was so excited about this project.

DBZ with all the fat trimmed off and a new and accurate dub. This was my DREAM release since I am a "dubbie". I was so excited about this and couldn't wait to own the whole series in this condensed form. I bought the first two parts with glee and awaited the time when I could purchase the other two parts.

But now, I find out that they won't finish Kai and will just stop at the Cell Saga. What is the point in buying the rest of the series now? That is like releasing Star Wars Episode I & II and then leaving out the third. I wasted $60 dollars on a set that will never be complete, and now they are also adding a new score which further messes with continuity and flow.

Thanks for not finishing the series Toei. I am so happy you won't finish my dream set and I am also SO happy that I spent a good deal of money that has now gone up a wild hogs ass. What is the point in me even owning the parts I have now since it won't be complete.

*sigh* :?
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Re: This is depressing.

Post by Savage68 » Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:24 pm

You can't enjoy the Saiyan, Namek and Artificial Human arcs as much because you know that won't be watching the Buu arc in the same format? Isn't that a bit... illogical?

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Re: This is depressing.

Post by Rocketman » Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:50 pm

I know I can't enjoy it as much knowing it ends with Gohan as the hero.

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Re: This is depressing.

Post by Chuquita » Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:50 pm

Even though I'm more of a fan of the Japanese version, I can see where you're coming from, Cootie. If your goal is a complete, uniform set, having the release stop a good chunk of the way there after you've bought the product is frustrating. (See the Ultimate Uncut Editions by Funi.)

While it's not as severe, the only thing I personally have to compare it to is Viz's release of the manga. After the first 10 volumes of DB and Z, Viz decided to change the size of and design of the books. Then once they reached the Buu arc all sorts of weird and bizarre editing changes went into effect like "Djinn", "Vegerot", and the obvious H-word. I also think they edited out some things art-wise like characters giving the middle finger and a gun being erased? Not 100% on those last too because it's been a while since I've read them.


I did enjoy following Kai week-to-week, and there were parts of the Buu arc that I was excited to see again after such a long time (and in Kai's faster-paced format). It's a shame they put a stop to it before they could finish; but there's not much you can do.

I would like to mention that the fact that they're also calling the One Piece X Toriko manga crossover "Cross Epoch" does slightly irritate me. >_>
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Re: This is depressing.

Post by Cootie » Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:55 pm

Savage68 wrote:You can't enjoy the Saiyan, Namek and Artificial Human arcs as much because you know that won't be watching the Buu arc in the same format? Isn't that a bit... illogical?
I could enjoy it. But just not as much. Like how if they put out the first two Lord of the Rings films but didn't release the third. You can enjoy the first two, but the pain of never being able to own the third movie is a deep wound.

I wanted a filler-free DBZ with a good dub. And once I get my wish they end it even though the series is still making bank. I mean, they could've just finished. How much money does it take to pay a couple voice actors and cut footage. I mean, it isn't like they have to really animate anything or come up with a story.
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Re: This is depressing.

Post by Chuquita » Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:11 am

I think it's because not enough people in Japan were buying the DVD's for Toei to think it was worth it to continue. Lots of people watched Kai in Japan, but very few of those who watched went on to buy the DVD's.
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Re: This is depressing.

Post by Budogenkai » Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:44 am

Chuquita wrote:I think it's because not enough people in Japan were buying the DVD's for Toei to think it was worth it to continue. Lots of people watched Kai in Japan, but very few of those who watched went on to buy the DVD's.
True, but aren't the DVD's expensive as hell in Japan?

And before Toei says "Well, they cost a lot in order to fund the producing of the show.."

The show was already produced, all you did was traced the lines and added in music.
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Re: This is depressing.

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:23 am

Budogenkai wrote:The show was already produced, all you did was traced the lines and added in music.
The actors, the recording staff, and the writers still cost money. Expenses have to be paid.
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Re: This is depressing.

Post by Cootie » Sat Apr 02, 2011 2:19 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Budogenkai wrote:The show was already produced, all you did was traced the lines and added in music.
The actors, the recording staff, and the writers still cost money. Expenses have to be paid.
But, the show was still making a good chunk of money. And the show is SUPER successful in America. Doesn't TOEI get a cut off that cash?
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Re: This is depressing.

Post by Eire » Sat Apr 02, 2011 3:50 am

The amount of money sounds good to average anime fan, but not for producer. We talk about sums that seems crazy for anyone who wasn't involved in film-making.
I recall one case when popularity in USA resulted in making new series (Big O) but I seriously doubt if it can be repeated.
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Re: This is depressing.

Post by Budogenkai » Sat Apr 02, 2011 11:06 am

Eire wrote:The amount of money sounds good to average anime fan, but not for producer. We talk about sums that seems crazy for anyone who wasn't involved in film-making.
I recall one case when popularity in USA resulted in making new series (Big O) but I seriously doubt if it can be repeated.
The second season of Big O was crap but I digress..
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Re: This is depressing.

Post by LeprikanGT » Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:54 pm

I can kind of see what the OP-er was talking bout on not being able to enjoy the series when you know it is coming to a pre-mature dead end. I was beyond excited when I heard about Kai and then I didn't want to believe they would cut it short and now that the ENTIRE Buu saga is cut out, it just feels like some half Assed side project to boost revenue or something. I'm half way into collecting the Blurays and it almost seems pointless now.

Kind of like when Funi was releasin the UUEs and stopped mid-boxset.

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Re: This is depressing.

Post by Chibi Gohan » Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:52 pm

Chuquita wrote:I think it's because not enough people in Japan were buying the DVD's for Toei to think it was worth it to continue. Lots of people watched Kai in Japan, but very few of those who watched went on to buy the DVD's.


This... Kai simply didn't sell enough merchandise, which at the end of the day made Toei decide that it wasn't worth continuing.
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Re: This is depressing.

Post by Hujio » Sat Apr 02, 2011 2:06 pm

Budogenkai wrote:True, but aren't the DVD's expensive as hell in Japan?
I really hate this argument because it's all based on perspective. To you they're expensive because they don't cost that much wherever you live, but in Japan, that's just normal. CDs, DVDs, and Blu-rays, they're all expensive. They always have been and they always will be.
Budogenkai wrote:And before Toei says "Well, they cost a lot in order to fund the producing of the show.."
Do you have a source for Toei saying their products are expensive just to fund the show's production?
Budogenkai wrote:The show was already produced, all you did was traced the lines and added in music.
You're simply speculating that the show was cheap. We've had bits of information to suggest the series was much more expensive than most of us thought, as they didn't have the budget to hire many of the voice actors. They also had to pay for "remastering" the series, pay animators to trace scenes, pay Yamamoto for scoring the series, pay the voice actors, and etc. All that isn't cheap. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they were allotted a smaller budget since they weren't fully re-animating the whole thing. So it may have been cheaper than most anime today, but those anime series probably have much higher budgets.
Chuquita wrote:I think it's because not enough people in Japan were buying the DVD's for Toei to think it was worth it to continue. Lots of people watched Kai in Japan, but very few of those who watched went on to buy the DVD's.
Yeah, that's all basically been confirmed with Toei Animation and Bandai's fiscal reports. Everybody watched, but nobody wanted to pay for it.

Anyway, to the topic at hand, there's no reason to blame Toei for not finishing the series. Really, it's the fans fault. It just wasn't selling, so they had to cut ties. Since Cootie likes to use the Star Wars and Lord of the Rings analogies, I'll stick with that. You can't honestly tell me that you think New Line Cinema would have kept making Lord of the Rings movies if they weren't making them any money. American studios are the exact same way. I remember when the Spider-man cartoon abruptly ended. It's just hard as a fan of any series to hear what you love is going to end. Anime is a business, and many fans often forget that, or at least are blind to seeing something as merely a business decision. I'm not saying you can't complain, you certainly can't blame Toei for Kai ending.
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Re: This is depressing.

Post by dragondyle » Sat Apr 02, 2011 10:27 pm

Technically, Kai is complete. Toei ended it. It's not like it got canceled and never finished. Some shows acually get canceled on a cliffhanger. At least Toei put and ending to it.
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Re: This is depressing.

Post by Budogenkai » Sat Apr 02, 2011 10:28 pm

Hujio wrote:
Budogenkai wrote:True, but aren't the DVD's expensive as hell in Japan?
I really hate this argument because it's all based on perspective. To you they're expensive because they don't cost that much wherever you live, but in Japan, that's just normal. CDs, DVDs, and Blu-rays, they're all expensive. They always have been and they always will be.
This would make sense only if Japan somehow made more money in everything else. It's like wanting to go buy a DVD of a Hollywood movie and being asked to pay $40. Unless I get paid generously or there was a wide variety of options for used buying/renting, I would not pay those prices. I may be understanding this wrong though.
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Re: This is depressing.

Post by DinoChow » Sat Apr 02, 2011 11:25 pm

Daizenshuu EX went into all of this on Podcast #252, the reasons why DB Kai failed, and it more or less boils down to this simple fact: in fiscal years before Toei was producing Kai (2007 in particular), the Dragon Ball franchise brought in MORE revenue than it did since Kai began production and release. Yes, Kai was relatively cheap to produce - that's why Toei made it. But even at that cost, they were sinking into it more than they were making. The Dragon Ball franchise was financially stronger WITHOUT Kai. It sounds crazy, but it's simple: Kai brought market saturation that turned people off DB. It was just too much for a market already heavy with games, DVDs, toys, and countless other merchandise to handle. That's why Kai ended.

I'm not sad about Kai ending personally, but I do feel for the OP and anyone else depressed about it. I'm a Firefly fan. Trust me, I know how you feel......
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Re: This is depressing.

Post by Pokewhiz7 » Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:12 am

I've never even seen a full episode of Kai and I don't intend to invest in it. True, most of Z is filler, but I'd rather get the all of the Dragon Boxes and all of the manga simply because there's more content there and I've heard Kai really feels rushed (not in terms of quality but the story moving too fast). Even though the manga has no filler in it it moves at a much better pace.

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Re: This is depressing.

Post by Rocketman » Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:15 am

Pokewhiz7 wrote:I've never even seen a full episode of Kai and I don't intend to invest in it. True, most of Z is filler, but I'd rather get the all of the Dragon Boxes and all of the manga simply because there's more content there
A bacon, lettuce, tomato and shit sandwich has more content than a BLT.

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Re: This is depressing.

Post by Pokewhiz7 » Sun Apr 03, 2011 1:23 am

Rocketman wrote:
Pokewhiz7 wrote:I've never even seen a full episode of Kai and I don't intend to invest in it. True, most of Z is filler, but I'd rather get the all of the Dragon Boxes and all of the manga simply because there's more content there
A bacon, lettuce, tomato and shit sandwich has more content than a BLT.
That's implying all filler is shit, which it isn't.

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