So, is it true....

[RockytheBear]

...that the filler becomes more tolerable and less frequent after the Namek/Frieza arcs? I'm watching DBZ for the first time and I gotta admit, it's quite a chore getting through lots of these episodes. Maybe I should just watch Kai instead? What are some of you guys' opinions? And while we're on the subject of filler, does filler even count? Is it regarded as "deleted scenes?" Or since it isn't in the manga and they're just stalling time for television, should it just be ignored as if it's not really happening? Thanks!

[VegettoEX]

The DragonBall series was an interesting case with regard to filler. Series from around the same time -- including plenty of other long-running shonen and shojo -- handled it all in different ways. You had things like Sailormoon where everything was turned into a monster-of-the-day where the occasional high story points were played out, but it was still the same basic story at the end of the day (well, then you have things like the first part of R which is entirely original, and the whole Chibi-Chibi thing... so maybe Sailormoon is more convoluted than it's worth for this discussion!). You had things like Ranma 1/2 where after a certain point, it just goes into its own territory, and then things like the OVAs go back to cover manga stuff. You've got things like Rurouni Kenshin which follows the manga closely, then has a tiny bit of brief original filler before it returns to follow the manga, and then it just does its own thing (completely ignoring the manga, which wasn't done yet) until it got itself kicked off the air.

DragonBall was different. The original manga story is, more or less, there in every single episode. While there are some stand-alone episodes, it's known for being continuous from episode to episode, and any original story arcs are typically VERY short (things like the Garlic Jr. arc are the longest it ever got). Otherwise, what you see in the manga is what you get in the TV series, usually drawn in exactly the same way with the same framing and everything! The filler in the show is usually just padding to scenes, rather than outright additions -- extra dialogue and attacks during major fights, for example.

Determining whether you personally "ignore" or "disregard" stuff that's exclusively contained in filler material is... well... it's a very personal decision!

There's a lot to take into consideration. Did Akira Toriyama have anything to do with said filler (as he did with some of it)? Does it even matter to you what the author's involvement was if it wasn't in the original manga in the first place? What do you plan on doing with the information from filler? Do you want to debate certain events with other fans, and if so, how seriously do you want to take those debates?

There's no such thing as an official canon for the series -- it's all up to individual fans. No-one, whether it's Akira Toriyama himself or Toei, has ever come out and outright said "We absolutely disregard these certain items and pretend they never happened while these elements over here we use and blah blah blah." There are timelines and such that integrate some things and other things, sure, but there's never been a steadfast, "Look upon me, ye' pitiful fans, and shake in horror as we hereby declare Garlic Jr. to be canonical to the original manga series, and oh, by the way, that's all we will ever go with from here on out!"

That's where the whole "I want to use X as evidence!" from Person A but "I disregard that and instead go with Y as evidence!" from Person B comes into play. It gets even crazier when you pull guide books into the mix .

So it's up to you. Find out how you enjoy the show the most, and knock yourself out. There are plenty of discussions about Kai that you can read up on in its own section, so I'd recommend heading over there for some insight (since it's a pretty big beast).

[hleV]

Well, if AT was asked to create an additional material for filler episodes, and he did that, doesn't really prove anything in my eyes.
Yes, some people may think that if Toriyama made something for (or was involved) DB anime series, it becomes their canon. Well, AT made character and other designs for some of the movies, fillers and GT. Movies don't even fit in the original timeline. Who knows, maybe in AT's mind Cooler really existed in DB, but definitely not the way he did in the movies. Basically, his designs may be based on something which really did exist in DB, but used by Toei for different matters. And GT, well, it's ignored by DBO. What else do you need to consider it non-canon?

[VegettoEX]

See, that's the problem. You're saying things like "it's not canon". That's not really how you use the word "canon", though.

The movies ARE canonical -- to themselves! The movies and GT all seem to exist in the same universe, too, so they're canonical to each other. Within that particular canon exist the DBZ movies and DBGT (at least Coola and such, anyway, since they're all in the Super 17 arc).

A lot of people seem to toss around the word "canon" when what they actually mean is "the continuity as it exists exists exclusively in the manga and without additions to it". Yeah, it's simpler to just say "canon", but it's not really comprehensive enough when you have a franchise like this with so many spin-offs that also doesn't actually have an officially-defined canon (such as, if I'm not making it up, things like Sherlock Holmes where certain stories are "officially regarded" as not being part of the canonical storyline for the character).

That's why I so adamantly push the idea that it's up to individual fan interpretation about what to accept as your own canon. For me, I take the Trunks TV special over the manga version simply because I like it more...! Crazy, right?!

[jjgp1112]

One thing I was surprised with in the Original Dragon Ball is just how much filler there is - like how Emperor Pilaf was never even appeared until he stole the Dragon Balls originally, whereas in the anime he's there in episode 1. Or half of the stuff with Colonel Silver, or the whole deal with the Super Holy Water. Looking at the Kanzentai guides, the anime was usually 6-8 months behind the manga in terms of storylines, but as you got to Saiyan arc in Z, the gap gradually narrowed, likely due to the nature of the storylines and how much harder it would be to drop some filler mini arc in the middle of the Saiyan and Frie­za saga without fucking up the pace. By the end of the Frieza saga, 8 months became 8 weeks! When Frieza blew up Namek's core in the anime, the chapter that had the whole Planet blowing to bits was published just 2 days prior! And as Mike said, DB followed the manga panel for panel as far as the "main" material goes. Most anime usually have some level of difference from the manga, such as Yu Yu Hakusho. It follows the same storylines and progresses the same, but with some differences here and there, and maybe a few "in-between" stories will be omitted or completely changed.

[Nex Carnifex]

The filler in the saiyan saga, specifically the filler dealing with snake way, was very hard to get through

[Kendamu]

...that the filler becomes more tolerable and less frequent after the Namek/Freeza arcs? I'm watching DBZ for the first time and I gotta admit, it's quite a chore getting through lots of these episodes. Maybe I should just watch Kai instead? What are some of you guys' opinions? And while we're on the subject of filler, does filler even count? Is it regarded as "deleted scenes?" Or since it isn't in the manga and they're just stalling time for television, should it just be ignored as if it's not really happening? Thanks!

I'm not a huge fan of the filler in DBZ, either. The manga is actually how I primarily enjoy DBZ. That started because, back when I discovered it, it was much less censored than its TV anime counterpart in the USA. Up until about 2007-ish, I had never bothered collecting more than an episode here or there and a few movies. If it weren't for the DBox making its way to the US so inexpensively, I likely would've just kept collecting the R2 DB and DBZ DVDs just long enough to get my few favorite episodes on disc before forgetting the extremely long TV version altogether. It's a case of the entire 291 episodes being less expensive than importing a few episodes here or there, really.

My only problem up until recently with Kai is that it had an inconsistent score. Now that that's not the case, I'll probably start collecting it in the new Season Sets that are coming to Blu-ray this Fall. That'll solve most of my issue when it comes to animated DBZ and filler.

In the end, though, all of that doesn't really matter. Enjoying your free time should never be a chore! Just go with the one you like and be done with it. I like the manga with a side of Kai and the occasional original DB or DBZ anime. To me, the manga is essential and the rest is supplemental.

What do you like most?

[JulieYBM]

Mike mentions that different series' around the time handled anime-only content and staying behind the original comic all differently, which reminds me of the way this stuff is handled in the modern giants. Naruto wound up having to do two years of anime-only story arcs when they got too close to Kishimoto. Of course, this didn't stop the first year of the sequel series, Naruto Shippuuden, from spreading the sixty-three chapters of Part II arcs across fifty-three episodes. Although, now Studio Pierrot has completely revamped how they handle heading into anime-only arcs by allowing the comic adapted arcs to run at a smooth, quick pace, then heading into half a year of anime-only episodes. Pierrot also did similar with Bleach. Bleach's anime-only arcs tend to adapt two or three chapters an episode. Some adapt six chapters and episode. Only Dragon Ball Kai episode #3 ever tried to adapt that much in one chapter! Anyhow, while they've also had two or three year-long anime-only arcs, for the last part of the battle with Aizen they decided to break up the flow of the story by adding in one or two shot anime-only episodes. It was really interesting, because at the time they were only twenty chapters behind Kubo, while trying to maintain two chapters an episode. The war with Aizen had two breaks for long anime-only arcs (#168-189 and #227-265) just so they could keep behind Kubo but also adapt quickly. One Piece, on the other hand, hasn't really done a big anime-only arc since episodes #326-335. There's been two two-episode mini arcs (the Straw Hats go to a water amusement park or an alternate reality that takes place in fuedal Japan), a four-episode prequel to the tenth movie, and a two recaps, but otherwise Toei has stuck to a 1:1 pacing (or less) because they're about forty chapters behind Oda. This has seen the pacing suffer in quite a few critical areas (espicially with Toei using so few good animators or storyboard artists for the past two years). One Piece isn't in such a different situation from Dragon Ball, in some respects (although Dragon Ball consistantly had better animation). At 510 episodes, One Piece is just now starting to cover chapter #593 (the latest chapter being #634).

It makes me wonder, what would Dragon Ball had been like if it borrowed the techniques employed by Studio Perriot? The Freeza battle probably would still taken the series up to episode #107, but the content would be rearranged far more differently. A few episodes with two chapters covered, one or two episodes of filler before returning to another comic adapted episode or set of episodes. I could see, however, how this might be unwieldy back in the early nineties when the home video market was non-existant, though. Nowadays, modern anime hit home video quickly enough that the flow of the weekly broadcast can be broken up (like with Bleach) because fans can just skip the episodes they don't want on home video (well, not that the studios would allow that).

[Herms]

(such as, if I'm not making it up, things like Sherlock Holmes where certain stories are "officially regarded" as not being part of the canonical storyline for the character).

No, Sherlock Holmes is in pretty much the same boat as DB, with a creator who didn't care much for consistency or continuity and a purely fan-determined canon (the first time "canon" was ever applied to a fictional series like this). After Doyle's death, fans adopted the term "canon" to designate those Holmes stories which had "really" happened. This is an offshoot of the way Doyle wrote the stories, as if they were memoirs written by Watson of his adventures with Holmes, and in which Watson sometimes fudged the facts to protect the innocent or simply for dramatic effect (much to Holmes' annoyance). This allowed fans to pretend Holmes had a been a real person and to distinguish between the events as Watson described in the stories and the "real" events, which comes in handy when dealing with the various contradictions in the series. For one thing, the Holmes stories aren't set in chronological order, which combined with Doyle's admitted carelessness on dates leads to a very confused internal timeline. But fans could just blame mistakes like these on Watson either messing up or purposefully obscuring the date for various reasons, allowing them to use internal clues in the stories to decide when it must "really" have occurred. It's an odd approach to the idea of canon compared to what you see nowadays, but the main advantage seems to be that it allowed fans to discuss the contradictions in the stories without dropping their suspension of disbelief.

Anyway, "canon" for Holmes was entirely determined by fans. Typically all Doyle's Holmes stories are regarded as part of the canon, as opposed to the various unauthorized rip-off and imitation stories. The Holmes series doesn't have anything like DB's filler or movies, things put out at the same time as the original series and by the same company. It's really just a matter of Doyle's stories versus the equivalent of fan-fiction or bootlegs. However, certain Doyle stories (mostly later ones) are regarded by some fans as so absurd that they couldn't have "really" happened, and were just things Watson made up. Obviously this isn't a definition of "non-canon" that has any equivalent in DB or most modern franchises. There's also a few short, humorous pieces on Holmes that Doyle, whose place in continuity (if any) is debated. But there's nobody with the status to declare any story "officially" outside continuity (maybe Doyle's heirs, but they don't care about such things).

[TonyTheTiger]

I kind of like the way comic books handle it (and the more streamlined version Star Wars employs where it's ok so long as nothing contradicts the movies). The gist being "everything happened unless there's a really good reason why it couldn't have."

With comics it's pretty obvious why this passive acceptance is employed. People would go crazy otherwise. It's gotten to the point where even within stories themselves the conclusion might be "yeah, this plot happened but maybe not in every detail." A Dragon Ball equivalent would be suggesting that the Garlic Jr. saga happened but Haiya Dragon's presence may not have been entirely accurate. Or that DBZ Movie 1 happened but the detail over when Krillin first met Gohan can be fudged.

What Dragon Ball fandom tends not to do that comics do all the time is write off blatant contradictions as parallel universes. If Dragon Ball were a DC or Marvel product you can bet your ass Tree of Might would be Earth-4 or something where all kinds of other details changed to enable it to fit.

[RockytheBear]

Thanks guys for all your opinions to a newbie. Anyone care to answer the first half of my question? Does the filler ease up at all after Namek/ Frieza?

[Michsi]

Well ,there is an entire filler arc between Namek arc and the Android arc. I personally don't mind since I like that one and there are some other filler episodes I genuinly enjoy. I have to admit though that I'd skip most of them.

[FNF]

Oh boy. Wait till you get to some of the filler between the Trunks and Android sagas
One episode will have you in stitches...or get skipped.

Goku and Piccolo have a driving lesson

[Michsi]

Oh boy. Wait till you get to some of the filler between the Trunks and Android sagas
One episode will have you in stitches...or get skipped.

Goku and Piccolo have a driving lesson

Yep, that's one of the enjoyable ones

[oldboy88]

... I'm watching the series for the first time too, while doing some fitness, till 2 months ago i was a huge db fan that only have checked the manga in-and-out from time to time, its fun for me, but sitting down, and watching the series was never a interesting thing for me, in every case I'm more a fan of mangas. I´ve heard much bad things about Fillerstuff, Fillerepisodes, but if you ask me, I'm happy with it now, becouse its an official addition to the whole series, stuff about i didnt know all the time ... it makes me happy to see something "new" DB Related

[caejones]

The Goku Vs Freeza battle is about as bad as it gets, drag-wise, but the next arc has its share of annoyingly drawn-out things as well.
I'd say that it gets better, but your mileage may vary.