What kind of people were the Saiyans, really?

[TonyTheTiger]

The Saiyans seem to range from absolute sociopathic monsters to jerks with hearts of gold, and everything in between depending on the needs of the plot. Of course this causes some serious tension when comparing early DBZ material to later stuff like Episode of Bardock where the audience is supposed to sympathize with a people that were once intended to represent the ultimate threat to the heroes.

I've come to understand the Saiyans as something like Spartans. Essentially human in every which way, capable of all the good and evil that comes with that, but raised in a culture that tends to marginalize or outright condemn certain emotions and behaviors that might be interpreted as weak. This is not alien, we see it all the time in both history and the modern world.

One thing about the "jerk with a heart of gold" interpretation is that many of our earthly cultures are heavily affected by it. As an American, I can say without a doubt that there's a slightly contradictory value system in which we highly respect the strength and steadfastness of the American male as an unmovable rock. We're supposed to be strong. Many other cultures are the same. But the American culture also tempers that with a great value for selflessness as seen in many of America's most prolific fictional heroes, again like many others. Be strong and don't show weakness...but the strong are here to protect the weak. If you have the former without the latter, you can end up with the aggression sans the compassion, ala the Saiyans...or the Spartans...or the Mongols...you get the point. Meanwhile, the Earthlings in Dragon Ball seem to value that same compassion many of us do.

I think it's telling that the times we see Saiyans stray from the sociopathy and show emotion and behavior that's more "human" is always when they're forced out of their culture, either physically or practically. Vegeta obviously, Bardock twice, first when he realizes his friends were betrayed and then again when he's hurled back in time, and perhaps Tarble. In other words, that maybe a good way to look at it is that the Saiyans are something of a cautionary tale for human behavior and at the same time a celebration of humanity. That all else being equal, the Earthlings got it right. For all the posturing and ambition of the Saiyan people, it took an Earthling outlook on life, the Earthling culture of valuing things like compassion and selflessness, to ultimately produce a Super Saiyan and free the universe from a tyrant. The Earthlings reflect us for what we should be and the Saiyans for what we could be. Which makes me think it's not quite so black and white as far as good and evil go.

[DarkPrince_92]

I consider them "Space Spartans".... with tails.

[shonenhikada]

They were equivalent to oppressed people, who were given racial slurs, and looked down by the tuffles.

[Herms]

I don't know, I think it's pretty consistently shown that Gok's nice because he's brain damaged, Gohan/Goten/Trunks/Bra/Pan are nice because they were raised on Earth, Vegeta eventually becomes nice because he lives on Earth a long time, while all the rest were bastard-coated bastards with bastard filling, but with a strong sense of comradarie among themselves (except for Vegeta, who jet didn't give a damn about anybody).

[Bussani]

I liked this post and more or less agree with it. Saiyans are a product of their culture, just like anyone else. I don't think they're fundamentally bad. I mean, they might have violent tendencies and love to fight, but despite everything, human beings have very similar natural urges. It's not black and white. I guess you can say that no one is a product of only their upbringing or their blood; for better or worse, we're all some sort of a combination of both.

[TonyTheTiger]

The only real difference I can see with the Saiyans is the whole "Saiyan children are naturally destructive" thing. But other than the fact that this is an obvious band-aid to address the continuity issue of Goku's origins (and we pretty much never hear of it again for any other character), it's not that outrageous. I wish I weren't able to make this comparison, but unfortunately we do know what happens to human children who are left without proper socialization and essentially become "wild."

[Saiga]

I honestly don't think Saiyans are any worse than humans are. There are plenty of human cultures you can compare them to and we have some humans that are far worse than the average Saiyan. I'd say that Saiyans going off attacking other planets is no different than countries invading other countries, it's just that the Saiyans were far more successful at it.

[Bussani]

The only real difference I can see with the Saiyans is the whole "Saiyan children are naturally destructive" thing. But other than the fact that this is an obvious band-aid to address the continuity issue of Goku's origins (and we pretty much never hear of it again for any other character), it's not that outrageous. I wish I weren't able to make this comparison, but unfortunately we do know what happens to human children who are left without proper socialization and essentially become "wild."

Yeah... I mean, I'd say human children are "naturally destructive". Imagine a human two year old with the power to blow up a house.

I do not want to live in that world.

[Piccolo Daimao]

The only real difference I can see with the Saiyans is the whole "Saiyan children are naturally destructive" thing. But other than the fact that this is an obvious band-aid to address the continuity issue of Goku's origins (and we pretty much never hear of it again for any other character), it's not that outrageous. I wish I weren't able to make this comparison, but unfortunately we do know what happens to human children who are left without proper socialization and essentially become "wild."

Yeah... I mean, I'd say human children are "naturally destructive". Imagine a human two year old with the power to blow up a house.

I do not want to live in that world.

Well, just look at Fat Boo. He was pretty childlike, seeing his killing of humans as a game, and decided to fight Gokuu not because Bobbodi ordered him to, but because he "hates good guys".

[sonikku956]

I honestly don't think Saiyans are any worse than humans are. There are plenty of human cultures you can compare them to and we have some humans that are far worse than the average Saiyan. I'd say that Saiyans going off attacking other planets is no different than countries invading other countries, it's just that the Saiyans were far more successful at it.

Well, yes, but I don't think humans have killed off entire intelligent species in recent times. The only two species I know of is Homo Neanderthalis and Homo Sapiens Idaltu, the only other humans species and subspecies or should I say "race" that we pushed to extinction but then agai, that was thousands of years ago.

I gotta ask, where did Saiyans come from anyway? If the Tsufurians we nothing but filler in the anime, did the Saiyans actually come from Planet Vegeta, or the rumored Planet Saiya, or even Earth?

[Saiga]

I honestly don't think Saiyans are any worse than humans are. There are plenty of human cultures you can compare them to and we have some humans that are far worse than the average Saiyan. I'd say that Saiyans going off attacking other planets is no different than countries invading other countries, it's just that the Saiyans were far more successful at it.

Well, yes, but I don't think humans have killed off entire intelligent species in recent times. The only two species I know of is Homo Neanderthalis and Homo Sapiens Idaltu, the only other humans species and subspecies or should I say "race" that we pushed to extinction but then agai, that was thousands of years ago.

Which I chalk down to the Saiyans simply being more competent at slaughter than humans are.

[Herms]

I gotta ask, where did Saiyans come from anyway? If the Tsufurians we nothing but filler in the anime, did the Saiyans actually come from Planet Vegeta, or the rumored Planet Saiya, or even Earth?

Going just by the manga, there's no reason to think the Saiyans didn't simply originate on Planet Vegeta. The Z TV series also doesn't suggest anything else, despite introducing the Tsufruians. Then the OVA and GT have the Saiyans as invading Planet Plant/Vegeta from somewhere else, and the GT Perfect Files tenetively suggest their true home world may be what they hypothetically dub "Planet Saiya".

[shonenhikada]

I gotta ask, where did Saiyans come from anyway? If the Tsufurians we nothing but filler in the anime, did the Saiyans actually come from Planet Vegeta, or the rumored Planet Saiya, or even Earth?

Going just by the manga, there's no reason to think the Saiyans didn't simply originate on Planet Vegeta. The Z TV series also doesn't suggest anything else, despite introducing the Tsufruians. Then the OVA and GT have the Saiyans as invading Planet Plant/Vegeta from somewhere else, and the GT Perfect Files tenetively suggest their true home world may be what they hypothetically dub "Planet Saiya".

Wasn't it stated the saiyans came from the planet that was destroyed by the legendary SSJ; most likely the same planet bardock was seen in the OVA. Then then relocated to planet plant, which eventually becaome planet vegeta.

[TonyTheTiger]

I honestly don't think Saiyans are any worse than humans are. There are plenty of human cultures you can compare them to and we have some humans that are far worse than the average Saiyan. I'd say that Saiyans going off attacking other planets is no different than countries invading other countries, it's just that the Saiyans were far more successful at it.

Well, yes, but I don't think humans have killed off entire intelligent species in recent times. The only two species I know of is Homo Neanderthalis and Homo Sapiens Idaltu, the only other humans species and subspecies or should I say "race" that we pushed to extinction but then agai, that was thousands of years ago.

If you think of the Saiyans and their genocide of other species as a scaled up allegory for human relations, then it matches up perfectly. The planets in Dragon Ball seem to be mono-cultured. Our own world, on the other hand...not so much. So just scale it down from planets across a galaxy to continents across a planet. Now instead of one planet's inhabitants slaughtering another's, you have one nation's/empire's/region's inhabitants slaughtering another's. That has happened or been attempted sadly often in recorded history.

[dbboxkaifan]

Humans have a low power level but still have disgusting tastes and traditions which include slaughtering animals in arenas (bulls), giving horses drugs (horse races), animals in circus if not behaved appropriately are electrocuted and so on.

As for this fictitious outer space specie, they enjoyed killing whoever they pleased.

Can't decide if Humans are worse than Saiyans for all the animal cruelty they've been doing for all these years, and still in 2012, for example, bullfights still exist.

By the way, if God existed, sure as hell he wouldn't allow people to treat animals so ruthlessly.

[Herms]

Wasn't it stated the saiyans came from the planet that was destroyed by the legendary SSJ; most likely the same planet bardock was seen in the OVA. Then then relocated to planet plant, which eventually becaome planet vegeta.

No; that's a common fan rumor, but it's not actually based on anything. The planet in Episode of Bardock is identified in the special itself as Planet Plant (ie Planet Vegeta in the distant past).

[Rocketman]

Well, yes, but I don't think humans have killed off entire intelligent species in recent times.

Well yeah, but that's only because there are no other intelligent species.

[soulnova]

Which I chalk down to the Saiyans simply being more competent at slaughter than humans are.

Pretty much this. I do believe that if Saiyans had been in contact with human culture from birth, they would have been nothing more than some destructive kids and rebellious teenagers. Any bad apple would be dispatched soon enough. Who knows, maybe the Saiyan that arrived to Planet Plant were in turn exiled from their own society for being too dangerous.

[Hades]

I think that the Saiyans were just a humanoid version of Super Buu (huge appetite both for food and destruction), and if Buu had ever met them, it would be like the ending to Animal Farm (pigs looked like men and all that)

[Bussani]

Well, yes, but I don't think humans have killed off entire intelligent species in recent times. The only two species I know of is Homo Neanderthalis and Homo Sapiens Idaltu, the only other humans species and subspecies or should I say "race" that we pushed to extinction but then agai, that was thousands of years ago.

As others have said, there's a good chance that's only because there aren't any other "intelligent species" around for us to get into fights with. That said, I think the world has become a better place. It's still pretty corrupt, but most nations won't stand for truly inhumane actions, such as wiping out a whole population to get their land. We've got a long way to go, but we've definitely improved. However, that doesn't mean the potential for violence isn't still within us, so all this shows, really, is that a species with violent tendencies can overcome them when the culture and what's considered acceptable by society changes enough. Saiyans should be no different.

If you're not squeamish, I might suggest looking up the Nanking Massacre. I doubt anyone here could read about that and then say humans and Saiyans are completely different. We have just as much potential for evil as they have.