Gohan lifts more than Goku?

[TenshiGokuu]

I noticed while watching one of the episodes where gohan in the saiyaman costume was saving the world he was able to lift entire passanger jet( the size of boeing 747) while it was crashing, without even braking a sweat and zero effort and it weighted more than 300tons especially if he was able to stop it while it was moving in mid air. makes me think if goku can lift more than just some 40 lousy tons in his base mode.

My theory is that since goku was lifting 40 tons in kai world, there could have been different gravity than on earth, making those 40 tons easily 400 tons.

[Kaboom]

If it counts for anything, that particular Saiyaman scene was just filler.

[TenshiGokuu]

If it counts for anything, that particular Saiyaman scene was just filler.

But overall isn't Saiyaman was in the manga also?

[Polyphase Avatron]

Gohan also seemed to handle the Z sword better than Goku did at first, but that might just have been because Goku was surprised by its weight.

[RandomGuy96]

That was after training with the sword. That scene just implies he's stronger than base Goku now.

Anyway, Toriyama just can't do math. This 40 tons feat is pathetic even compared to Pilaf arc Goku's feats.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Wasn't it said that the difficulty was with flying with that weight?

[RandomGuy96]

Wasn't it said that the difficulty was with flying with that weight?

Yes. However, that wouldn't account for the multiple magnitudes of difference that should be present in strength here. Pilaf arc Goku could push a ~500 ton boulder. This Goku is literally millions of times stronger, yet can't handle 40 measly tons on his limbs?

[Herms]

My theory is that since goku was lifting 40 tons in kai world, there could have been different gravity than on earth, making those 40 tons easily 400 tons.

That scene's actually supposed to be set in Heaven rather than "kai world". It'd probably suck for most people if Heaven had really high gravity.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Gohan also seemed to handle the Z sword better than Goku did at first, but that might just have been because Goku was surprised by its weight.

It doesn't imply that necessarily. Yamcha, when he arrived in Kaio's Planet, was stronger than Goku when he got used to the gravity there, and he said that it was hard for him to get used to it. Base Trunks (Boo arc) also couldn't take the 150g, even though he was much stronger than the Vegeta that could take the 300g. So, base Goku could still be stronger than Gohan, he just wasn't used in lifting something like that. Not to mention that Gohan said that only his arm strength increased, not that his power in general increased, and Goku doubting that Gohan's power up was incredible. And since there was a not very small gap in their powers, I highly doubt that Gohan had surpassed Goku.

[sekzee]

Goku adjusted well shortly after handling it.

Anyone can appear to be struggling with something they were not expecting/prepared for.

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

They won't be able to easily overcome something they haven't done before. Just like Trunks doing 150g and needing to turn SSJ (just give him another week.. ) or how about kid Gohan in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber for his 1st day, and couldn't take 10g yet he's way more powerful than the Z fighters when they trained on King Kai's planet.

Goku with 90,000 power level did 100g. And that quickly became a child's play like power level compared to anyone else.

[TenshiGokuu]

They won't be able to easily overcome something they haven't done before. Just like Trunks doing 150g and needing to turn SSJ (just give him another week.. ) or how about kid Gohan in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber for his 1st day, and couldn't take 10g yet he's way more powerful than the Z fighters when they trained on King Kai's planet.

Goku with 90,000 power level did 100g. And that quickly became a child's play like power level compared to anyone else.

I see i guess, what other people were saying Goku was probably adjusting his weight the strength he needed to lift that weight, because we never seen goku actually struggling and failing to lift 40 tons, he was just surprised by the weight, although when Gohan was lifting up a plane, he wasent surprised by the weight at all, maybe because he already adjusted the proper amount of strength he needed ahead.

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

They won't be able to easily overcome something they haven't done before. Just like Trunks doing 150g and needing to turn SSJ (just give him another week.. ) or how about kid Gohan in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber for his 1st day, and couldn't take 10g yet he's way more powerful than the Z fighters when they trained on King Kai's planet.

Goku with 90,000 power level did 100g. And that quickly became a child's play like power level compared to anyone else.

I see i guess, what other people were saying Goku was probably adjusting his weight the strength he needed to lift that weight, because we never seen goku actually struggling and failing to lift 40 tons, he was just surprised by the weight, although when Gohan was lifting up a plane, he wasent surprised by the weight at all, maybe because he already adjusted the proper amount of strength he needed ahead.

If that place Goku trained in had higher gravity then perhaps he was lifting more than 40. But even 400 shouldn't be much. Considering he can also raise his base power without turning SSJ. I bet Goku transformed into SSJ just to show the other Kai's how fast he can punch and kick with that much weight. I guess more so on the showing off side of things than anything. Numerically, Super Saiyan 1 Goku should be able to lift more than 20,000 tons. That is, if the 50x rule applies to more than just his battle power.

And 20,000 might be a low number as well, didn't Goku move 500 ton boulder in DB? He should be able to tackle things as heavy as 10,000,000 tons...

[Polyphase Avatron]

Well to be fair it's easier to push/pull something along the ground than it is to lift it.

[The Monkey King]

And 20,000 might be a low number as well, didn't Goku move 500 ton boulder in DB? He should be able to tackle things as heavy as 10,000,000 tons...

Goku in the very first chapter was lifting and throwing 1 ton cars with a PL of 10.
My opinion on the whole 40 tons thing is the same as Randomguy's

[mmg86]

People, people... please stop calling that rock Goku pushed "500 tons" and the like. Not only is it never said to be that heavy in the manga, it seems Toriyama didnt even intend it to be 100 kgs! I mean, come on, all that complaining about 40 tons, did you miss all the gravity training? 40 tons is more weight than any other "feat with numbers" in the manga, even under 300x gravity Vegeta wouldnt even come close to weighing that much.

Even if you want to go with some "exposure to increased gravity and punching/kicking with weights strapped to your limbs arent the same thing" theory, you would run into the 100 kg problem. Thats how heavy the clothes Goku wears in the 23rd Budokai are. Krillin is amazed by how much weight Goku carries. Those clothes slow him down significantly. Isnt it obvious then that the DB cast has nowhere near as much physical strength as you believed? Do you realize that if he could handle 500 tons with ease (being stronger at this point than before the 21st Budokai), 100 kg would be to him as insignificant as a shirt button to us?

DB was extremely consistent with numbers for strength feats. 20 kg turtle shells, then (if i remember correctly) 40 kg turtle shells, 10x gravity, 20x gravity, 100x gravity, 300x gravity, then finally 40 tons. Each one was more weight than the previous feat. The only time we got a number lesser than the previous was in the same chapter as the 40 tons, where Vegeta was training in 150x gravity while Goku was training with 8 tons. And guess what? Those are perfectly consistant with each other, as 150x gravity would make Vegeta 9 tons. Goku was using what would be appropiate for training in base, while Vegeta would presumably increase the gravity later if Trunks hadnt come in (to 600x, or 700x, assuming the gravity chamber can go that high)

Anyway, to reply the topic at hand, the scene is filler. What else needs to be said? If you still wanna take it into account... either Gohan is massively stronger than Goku and Vegeta (why?) or according to Toei, the plane was not only less than 40 tons... it was less than 8. Your choice.

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

People, people... please stop calling that rock Goku pushed "500 tons" and the like. Not only is it never said to be that heavy in the manga, it seems Toriyama didnt even intend it to be 100 kgs! I mean, come on, all that complaining about 40 tons, did you miss all the gravity training? 40 tons is more weight than any other "feat with numbers" in the manga, even under 300x gravity Vegeta wouldnt even come close to weighing that much.

Even if you want to go with some "exposure to increased gravity and punching/kicking with weights strapped to your limbs arent the same thing" theory, you would run into the 100 kg problem. Thats how heavy the clothes Goku wears in the 23rd Budokai are. Krillin is amazed by how much weight Goku carries. Those clothes slow him down significantly. Isnt it obvious then that the DB cast has nowhere near as much physical strength as you believed? Do you realize that if he could handle 500 tons with ease (being stronger at this point than before the 21st Budokai), 100 kg would be to him as insignificant as a shirt button to us?

DB was extremely consistent with numbers for strength feats. 20 kg turtle shells, then (if i remember correctly) 40 kg turtle shells, 10x gravity, 20x gravity, 100x gravity, 300x gravity, then finally 40 tons. Each one was more weight than the previous feat. The only time we got a number lesser than the previous was in the same chapter as the 40 tons, where Vegeta was training in 150x gravity while Goku was training with 8 tons. And guess what? Those are perfectly consistant with each other, as 150x gravity would make Vegeta 9 tons. Goku was using what would be appropiate for training in base, while Vegeta would presumably increase the gravity later if Trunks hadnt come in (to 600x, or 700x, assuming the gravity chamber can go that high)

Anyway, to reply the topic at hand, the scene is filler. What else needs to be said? If you still wanna take it into account... either Gohan is massively stronger than Goku and Vegeta (why?) or according to Toei, the plane was not only less than 40 tons... it was less than 8. Your choice.

Even if the rock was never said to be 500 tons. Still many inconsistencies, like The Monkey King above had described, Goku at a 10 power level threw vehicles, while being at a number only twice as high as that farmer, is quite a feat. Then just divide his number (where ever you have him at) from in the Buu Saga to the beginning of DB. The feats they show them doing are rather ..... minuscule, to say the very least?

Not to go overly dramatic on the matter, but based on how immeasurable power levels become, and as quick as that happens, I can imagine a SSJ3 lifting a continent.

[mmg86]

What i said about the rock would still apply to the car. The "one ton car" is not so according to what seems to be the logic of the manga. And i get your point on how huge the power level figures would be late in the manga, and how it can lead people to expect greater prowess than the characters show. But again, there is a problem with that, namely, that logic only works one way. What happens with reverse "feat speculation"? I will give a few examples:

Mmm, Goku can handle 100x the gravity of Earth with his 60000 BP! That is 6000 times greater than what should be his chapter 1 BP! Oh, oh... i just realized guys... back then, Goku would only be able to tolerate 1/600 the gravity of our planet... even in the Moon, he would be crushed instantly by his own weight...

Wow! Goku can punch and kick, with 10 tons on each limb! Its no wonder, his power level is millions of times greater than the BP of normal people, after all! On second thought... boy, this is messed up! Just realized, this means normal people in DB Earth would keel over trying to pick up a coin. Man...

As you can see, we end up with weird conclusions. Doing the calculation one way yields completely different results from the other way. Doesnt that make it clear that we cant rely on "powerlevel" to gauge the characters? "More is better" is the only reliable conclusion, because the actual results of those readings is very unpredictable. Anyway, sorry for the rant. Hope i didnt bore everyone...

[The Monkey King]

People, people... please stop calling that rock Goku pushed "500 tons" and the like. Not only is it never said to be that heavy in the manga, it seems Toriyama didnt even intend it to be 100 kgs!

If we're gonna talk about author intent I'm pretty sure that if you asked him if everything in the Dragon Ball verse weighs 1% of what its real life counter parts do he'd say "what? Of course not."
Or if you asked how much DB cars weigh he'd say "As much as they do in real life"

I mean, come on, all that complaining about 40 tons, did you miss all the gravity training? 40 tons is more weight than any other "feat with numbers" in the manga, even under 300x gravity Vegeta wouldnt even come close to weighing that much.

Gravity training is more understandable since no matter how strong you are your body, as in every single organ fibre etc will suddenly weigh 100s of times more than your used to, this is worlds apart from lifting a dumbell and will need getting used to.
For example Kid Goku spent a year in the ROSAT:

Chapter: 366 (DBZ 172), P3.5, P4.1
Goku: “I’m going to take Gohan and go train. At a place where I can train for 1 year in just 1 day…”
Piccolo: “So that’s it! You want to go to the Room of ‘Spirit and Time’! I see…But nobody’s ever been able to spend 1 year in there. Even you long ago could barely manage 1 month…”

Yet post saiyan saga Yamcha struggled in 10G

Chapter: 261 (DBZ 67), P2.8
Yamcha: “Anyway, I’ve really had it with the gravity here. My body’s heavy and I can’t even run easily.”

Even if you want to go with some "exposure to increased gravity and punching/kicking with weights strapped to your limbs arent the same thing" theory, you would run into the 100 kg problem. Thats how heavy the clothes Goku wears in the 23rd Budokai are. Krillin is amazed by how much weight Goku carries. Those clothes slow him down significantly. Isnt it obvious then that the DB cast has nowhere near as much physical strength as you believed? Do you realize that if he could handle 500 tons with ease (being stronger at this point than before the 21st Budokai), 100 kg would be to him as insignificant as a shirt button to us?

Hence why I think the weight numbers make no sense when looking at the other strength feats.

DB was extremely consistent with numbers for strength feats. 20 kg turtle shells, then (if i remember correctly) 40 kg turtle shells, 10x gravity, 20x gravity, 100x gravity, 300x gravity, then finally 40 tons. Each one was more weight than the previous feat. The only time we got a number lesser than the previous was in the same chapter as the 40 tons, where Vegeta was training in 150x gravity while Goku was training with 8 tons. And guess what? Those are perfectly consistant with each other, as 150x gravity would make Vegeta 9 tons. Goku was using what would be appropiate for training in base, while Vegeta would presumably increase the gravity later if Trunks hadnt come in (to 600x, or 700x, assuming the gravity chamber can go that high)

I can appreciate that the numbers were consistent, but then looking at the feats throughout the manga they've never matched up with the other strength feats:

Spoiler:

Toriyama and the Daizenshuu explicitly call the car Goku threw in chapter 1 a Renault 5 Turbo (which weigh about 1 ton)
Goku with a PL of 100 destroyed a 12 inch thick wall of steel with 1 punch.
Tai throwing a stone pillar 2,300km.
Goku jumping above the clouds in the 21st BT.
Android 8 punching commander white over a mountain range and beyond the horizon.
Bora throwing Goku and Yajirobe above the clouds.
Goku throwing King Piccolo through a building so hard that he rips it in half and sends the roof flying.
In the 23rd BT Goku threw giant Piccolo with ease and Piccolo's base weight is already 200kg.
Saiyan space pods being able to withstand atmospheric re-entry, tear multiple building in half, create huge craters when crashed into the Earth and tank country level explosions, then Gohan smashing one with his head.
Gohan's headbutt with a PL of 1300 was portrayed to be in the same realm of power as Piccolo's SBC with a PL of 1300.
Characters over powering attacks with enough force to destroy planets with physical strength.
Freeza tanking a planetary explosion while near dead yet SSJ Goku was able to demolish a healthy Freeza with physical strength alone.

(I can provide scans for these if you want, I just felt kinda lazy )

I personally think Toriyama got the weight numbers messed up and I don't think he intended the DBZ world to be one where everything weighs less than 1% of their real life counter parts, Earth's gravity is actually 0.00001 of IRL Earth gravity (how else with beings who can't lift 100kg jump above clouds) and where planet busters and planetary explosions produce less than 10 tons of force.

The more you think about it the more messed up DB is

[TenshiGokuu]

Well to be fair it's easier to push/pull something along the ground than it is to lift it.

well its still takes effort, kid goku was moving that boulder from in a pretty gripped position, he also threw dinosaurs in the air and in 23rd budokai picked up giant piccolo.