Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
Over the years many fans have believed that the whole "rage boost" characteristic has been exclusive to Gohan and that no other character has that trait. Honestly, that's never been the case to me. It was only until BOG, when Vegeta displayed a similar rage boost characteristic to what Gohan had, that fans were up in arms about how Vegeta had "stolen" Gohan's gimmick. And, yes, Gohan was the first character to display the unique characteristic of having his power level spike when angered or overly emotional, but he wasn't the only one to do so in the manga.
Case in point with Goku, who's power level soared to great heights after feeling overwhelming anger at the death of his best friend, Krillin:
And finally with Oob, who's power spikes when angered at Goku's insults in regard to him.
Spoiler:
What are your thoughts on the whole "rage boost" debate?
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
I think anyone can get stronger from sheer rage. Anger drives people to do a lot of things they normally wouldn't, and can make them do whatever they need to get that accomplished. I could see lots of characters drawing on hidden power that they'd never been able to access before if something drastic were to happen.
In Gohan's case, rage allowed him to access his hidden potential. Once it was unlocked, there was no need for him to do that again. Since Vegeta was the only other Saiyan that lagged behind (not if we consider Goten and Trunks as Gotenks), a rage boost was in need to allow his best look with more power, and for comedic effect as well. It doesn't matter now that he has SSJG SSJ.
Marco Polo wrote:I thought it was well agreed that rage boost is a fan term? It's like God ki, i.e. a term which is not officially used.
I know rage boost is fan term, but it's thrown around so much that people believe it to be some sort of special ability that Gohan only has access to, when that's not the case. I explained that in my OP.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Marco Polo wrote:I thought it was well agreed that rage boost is a fan term? It's like God ki, i.e. a term which is not officially used.
I know rage boost is fan term, but it's thrown around so much that people believe it to be some sort of special ability that Gohan only has access to, when that's not the case. I explained that in my OP.
Your explanation is lacking really. The only examples of their power increasing to which you've provided is when they were undergoing transformations. That is pretty different from Gohan who has a maximum power but exceeds it by huge amounts without transforming. Frankly, getting stronger through transformations is an obvious thing. Even if those transformations were brought about by anger.
Lord Beerus wrote:What are your thoughts on the whole "rage boost" debate?
My thoughts are the same for every debate regarding Gohan : They're unnecessary.
In terms of why this debate is,it's because it was never said anywhere in the manga that other characters can't have them so why is his fan base acting like it was said they're exclusive to him ?
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.
Marco Polo wrote:I thought it was well agreed that rage boost is a fan term? It's like God ki, i.e. a term which is not officially used.
I know rage boost is fan term, but it's thrown around so much that people believe it to be some sort of special ability that Gohan only has access to, when that's not the case. I explained that in my OP.
Your explanation is lacking really. The only examples of their power increasing to which you've provided is when they were undergoing transformations. That is pretty different from Gohan who has a maximum power but exceeds it by huge amounts without transforming. Frankly, getting stronger through transformations is an obvious thing. Even if those transformations were brought about by anger.
Oob was not a case of undergoing a transformation though. He was legitimately pissed at Goku for insulting him and treating him like an idiot. Next thing you know, his power level spikes and he's giving EOZ Base Goku a tough time. It's in the OP.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Lord Beerus wrote:Oob was not a case of undergoing a transformation though. He was legitimately pissed at Goku for insulting him and treating him like an idiot. Next thing you know, his power level spikes and he's giving EOZ Base Goku a tough time. It's in the OP.
Oob is another character like Gohan that has oodles of hidden power though. So it is understandable.
Uub was just the case of being Kid Buu reincarnated, but Kid Buu was only ever holding back against SSJ3 Goku, because he wasn't tapping onto South Kaioshin's power inside of Fat Buu, before he was spit out. It makes you wonder if his Human form suppressed his power even further.
Lord Beerus wrote:Oob was not a case of undergoing a transformation though. He was legitimately pissed at Goku for insulting him and treating him like an idiot. Next thing you know, his power level spikes and he's giving EOZ Base Goku a tough time. It's in the OP.
Oob is another character like Gohan that has oodles of hidden power though. So it is understandable.
And that goes back to my original point: the whole "rage boost" characteristic isn't exclusive to Gohan in the manga or series, like fans seem to believe it is.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Gohan & Oob had the ability to draw power from their dormant powers by getting angry, because the one was a Saiyan/Earthling Halfling, and the other was the reincarnation of Majin Boo.
Vegeta got stronger by getting angry in BoG because he wanted to protect Bulma (according to Watanabe). Watanabe said that this was a silly scene, so I think this was supposed to be a gag scene.
Goku & Trunks never got rage boosts. Goku's anger just triggered the first Super Saiyan transformation (which is something that needs to happen for every Saiyan in order to transform), and Trunks was just angry. None of them got any extra power-up through their anger.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Gohan & Oob had the ability to draw power from their dormant powers by getting angry, because the one was a Saiyan/Earthling Halfling, and the other was the reincarnation of Majin Boo.
Vegeta got stronger by getting angry in BoG because he wanted to protect Bulma (according to Watanabe). Watanabe said that this was a silly scene, so I think this was supposed to be a gag scene.
Goku & Trunks never got rage boosts. Goku's anger just triggered the first Super Saiyan transformation (which is something that needs to happen for every Saiyan in order to transform), and Trunks was just angry. None of them got any extra power-up through their anger.
I'm pretty sure it's cuz they're otherwise docile people. Goten nor Trunks have displayed that trait once.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am
I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.
I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.
DBZAOTA482 wrote:I'm pretty sure it's cuz they're otherwise docile people. Goten nor Trunks have displayed that trait once.
They haven't. It is stated in the Daizenshuu that this is the reason that Gohan has this ability, but that doesn't mean that all of the Saiyan Halflings have this ability. Goten & Trunks were born without tails, and with the ability to easily transform & master Super Saiyan, but Gohan didn't have these. The traits of the Saiyan Halflings aren't consistent.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
It makes sense that a character who can't tap onto his power due to his personality would need somekind of trigger. Goten was so relaxed and cool that he didn't need it, while Trunks had someone to spar with.
Last edited by Truhan on Tue May 12, 2015 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
DBZAOTA482 wrote:I'm pretty sure it's cuz they're otherwise docile people. Goten nor Trunks have displayed that trait once.
They haven't. It is stated in the Daizenshuu that this is the reason that Gohan has this ability, but that doesn't mean that all of the Saiyan Halflings have this ability. Goten & Trunks were born without tails, and with the ability to easily transform & master Super Saiyan, but Gohan didn't have these. The traits of the Saiyan Halflings aren't consistent.
But I don't give a fuck about what the Daizenshuu says. Gohan and Oob set off like that cuz they're soft is what I'd say.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am
I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.
I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.
It's a Gohan and Oob thing...not surprising with Oob considering he starts off as a Gohan clone. Same rules apply to both of them for the same reasons. Everyone else does not have that hidden potential shtick. Though Goku and Vegeta apparently have unlimited potential now or something like that....so yeah that beats out both Gohan and Oob.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
None of the examples you provided are the same as what Gohan displayed throughout the series. Even as an untrained little boy, when he became angry, his strength spiked to the level of a villain stronger than his father, who had trained all his life. Other characters, such as Vegeta in the Cell saga and Goku in the Namek saga, also became angry, but their power did not skyrocket to the point where they closed the gap with their opponent and curb-stomped them for a few seconds.
The SSJ transformation is a separate hereditary evolution that's, presumably, available to every saiyan when they reach a certain power level and reach a point where it becomes a necessity. Goten and Trunks are the only special cases.
Uub, as the reincarnation of Kid Buu, was tapping into his untapped reserves of strength, which are finite and should equal the power of Kid Buu.
"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super
Lord Beerus wrote:And that goes back to my original point: the whole "rage boost" characteristic isn't exclusive to Gohan in the manga or series, like fans seem to believe it is.
It's not EXCLUSIVE to Gohan, but it is SIGNATURE to him. So when it gets removed from him and some random dude who has never shown the same power suddenly gets it, and gets it even more bettar than, it's kinda crappy.
I mean, regeneration isn't exclusive to Piccolo, but you'd see the same reaction if Vegeta had suddenly grown an arm back.
Though it's honestly worse, since by now Gohan has absolutely nothing unique to him anymore.
The SSJ transformation is a separate hereditary evolution that's, presumably, available to every saiyan when they reach a certain power level and reach a point where it becomes a necessity. Goten and Trunks are the only special cases.
Are we just gonna ignore that Future Trunks became a SSJ for unknown reasons in the manga?
Uub, as the reincarnation of Kid Buu, was tapping into his untapped reserves of strength, which are finite and should equal the power of Kid Buu.
It doesn't matter. Many characters on the show were shown to have near finite amounts of hidden power, Oob is no exception. When he gets angry, his power level spikes, just like Gohan.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.