Was Trunks wrong?

RedRibbonSoldier#42 · Post by **RedRibbonSoldier#42** » Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:14 pm

Trunks claims that he surpassed his father in the Room of Spirit and Time, but hid it for the sake of Vegeta's pride. Well, we know how effective Trunks' "Ultra Super Saiyan" ended up being in the fight with Cell. ( not very much) So was Trunks wrong? Was Vegeta actually right after all when he told Cell that Trunks was almost as strong as him? In other words, which of them was truly stronger at that point? By "stronger" I don't mean Ki or muscular strength as Trunks clearly has the edge, but which would have done better in the fight with Cell. (could Trunks have fought better against Cell than Vegeta if he ditched USSJ and fought normally)

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:21 pm

The simplest way to interpret it seems to be that Grade 3 is the only thing making Trunks stronger. Trunks thinks Vegeta isn't capable of powering up that much, when in fact Vegeta just chose not to because he realized the weaknesses. But all-in-all, at equally powered-up levels, Vegeta would still be a little stronger than Trunks. Something like...

Vegeta: 10
-- Super Saiyan: 500
-- SS Grade 2: 750
-- SS Grade 3 (Hypothetical): 1000

Trunks: 9
-- Super Saiyan: 450
-- SS Grade 2: 675
-- SS Grade 3: 900

RedRibbonSoldier#42 · Post by **RedRibbonSoldier#42** » Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:28 pm

Kaboom wrote:The simplest way to interpret it seems to be that Grade 3 is the only thing making Trunks stronger. Trunks thinks Vegeta isn't capable of powering up that much, when in fact Vegeta just chose not to because he realized the weaknesses. But all-in-all, at equally powered-up levels, Vegeta would still be a little stronger than Trunks. Something like...

Vegeta: 10
-- Super Saiyan: 500
-- SS Grade 2: 750
-- SS Grade 3 (Hypothetical): 1000

Trunks: 9
-- Super Saiyan: 450
-- SS Grade 2: 675
-- SS Grade 3: 900

Are those numbers pulled from somewhere or just speculation? Not challenging it, as speculation is all we have to answer my question, just wondering why you chose these stats

Truhan · Post by **Truhan** » Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:40 pm

Imagine it were like this:

SSJ - 50 times the increase over all base attributes.
[][][][][] - Power
[][][][][] - Speed
[][][][][] - Stamina

SSJ Grade II - 60 times the increase in power and speed.
[][][][][][] - Power
[][][][][][] - Speed
[][][] - Stamina

SSJ Grade III - 70 times the increase in power with speed loss.
[][][][][][][] - Power
[][][][] - Speed
[][][][] - Stamina

SSJ Full Power - 80 times the increase over all base attributes.
[][][][][][][][] - Power
[][][][][][][][] - Speed
[][][][][][][][] - Stamina

So, even if Trunks were to be a bit weaker than Vegeta, he would have SSJ Grade III to surpass his father, who had only used Grade II.

Darkprince410 · Post by **Darkprince410** » Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:48 pm

RedRibbonSoldier#42 wrote:
Kaboom wrote:The simplest way to interpret it seems to be that Grade 3 is the only thing making Trunks stronger. Trunks thinks Vegeta isn't capable of powering up that much, when in fact Vegeta just chose not to because he realized the weaknesses. But all-in-all, at equally powered-up levels, Vegeta would still be a little stronger than Trunks. Something like...

Vegeta: 10
-- Super Saiyan: 500
-- SS Grade 2: 750
-- SS Grade 3 (Hypothetical): 1000

Trunks: 9
-- Super Saiyan: 450
-- SS Grade 2: 675
-- SS Grade 3: 900
Are those numbers pulled from somewhere or just speculation? Not challenging it, as speculation is all we have to answer my question, just wondering why you chose these stats

He was using that as an example to show how Trunks could have been weaker than Vegeta when it came to the same form, but was stronger than him overall.

There's also the idea that Vegeta actually did have the Ssj Grade 3 form, but wisely knew not to use it in combat for knowing its drawbacks. Trunks, after Cell pointed out the flaws to the form, indicated that Vegeta must have known about the weakness to it, which is why he didn't change to it. We saw, around this same time, that it took Goku actually transforming into the state for him to realize the flaws to the form as well. Given that it'd be unlikely that it'd take Goku transforming into the state to learn about its drawbacks, but Vegeta not need to, it's very possible that Vegeta had reached the form, learned of its flaws, and opted not to use it.

It also wouldn't be hard to believe that Vegeta had reached it without Trunks knowing either, as Trunks thought he had reached Grade 3 without Vegeta knowing about it. If he thought he had reached it without Vegeta knowing, then that would indicate that they had isolated themselves enough to where Vegeta could have pushed himself to that point while Trunks remained oblivious.

Truhan · Post by **Truhan** » Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:52 pm

Yeah, I like the idea that Trunks tried to surpass his limits without Vegeta noticing, only he did notice and didn't care, because he realized its flaws without even trying.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Mon Aug 03, 2015 1:01 pm

RedRibbonSoldier#42 wrote:Are those numbers pulled from somewhere or just speculation? Not challenging it, as speculation is all we have to answer my question, just wondering why you chose these stats

They're just hypothetical for demonstration. S'why I said, "something like."

SpiritBombTriumphant · Post by **SpiritBombTriumphant** » Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:23 pm

I like the whole idea of a young person/kid (Trunks) trying to surpass someone older (Vegeta) only to fail due to inexperience. Vegeta most likely knew that becoming a grade 3 SSJ would slow him down to the point of not being able to fight while Goku knew as soon as he reached the form. Something about the "older people know better" part of it is just cool to me. But it was very funny seeing Cell do the same thing when fighting SSJ2 Gohan later and get his ass kicked.

fadeddreams5 · Post by **fadeddreams5** » Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:34 pm

The minute I read the title, I said "yes" in my mind.

Was Trunks ever once...right? I'm surprised the androids didn't show up a year before he said they would.

RancorSnp · Post by **RancorSnp** » Tue Aug 04, 2015 1:48 am

I think people are always overcomplicating stuff when it comes to supersayan. Treating all the grades and Full power supersayan as separate forms and all.

Anyways, I'll keep it simple, look at how Vegeta prepares to fight himself with Cell, this is true both to Anime AND Manga, 1) He bulks up, 2) He waits a very short moment (comapring strength?) 3) He takes a breath out, and REDUCES his bulky form a bit.
What Trunks does is simply bulk up all the way up, and try to fight.

Conclusion : Yes, Trunks was wrong, Vegeta was fully aware that you can bulk up more, but unlike Trunks he was able to find how much to bulk not to loose too much speed and energy.

Post by **Herms** » Tue Aug 04, 2015 2:05 am

What's odd is that it's not just Trunks, but even Cell seems to think Trunks has more power than Vegeta, before being disappointed that Trunks' transformation relies too much on power over speed. I'd say most likely Trunks does deep down have more power than Vegeta (since "hidden power" seems to be the half-Saiyans' main selling point), but he's unable to utilize it properly, so in an actual fight Vegeta comes out on top. It's like a Pokemon with great stats but terrible techniques.

Oh yeah, for that matter even Kuririn notices Trunks is concealing power, something he apparently doesn't notice about Vegeta. Which is a bit odd if you look at Trunks' Grade III transformation as something like Kaio-ken where he's amplifying his power by X (how could Kuririn notice Trunks has the skill to multiply his power by x10 or whatever?), but I think it makes sense if you look at it as Trunks' way of drawing out the power he has beneath the surface. Kuririn and Cell were able to sense that power ahead of time, but couldn't anticipate that Trunks' method of using that power was so crap. Meanwhile, neither of them seem to notice any similar extra power beneath the surface with Vegeta. So overall I think it makes the most sense to say Trunks actually does have a leg up on Vegeta in the raw power department but falls down in the skill department, rather than Vegeta having an edge in both departments (and to me it seems more interesting that way too). So if Vegeta went Grade III, he'd be slow and weaker than Trunks to boot. Possibly.

However, maybe since Vegeta apparently realized the drawbacks to Grade III head of time, you could say he just never bothered to train to the point where he could actually use the form (rather than the alternative view where he actually could have used the transformation against Cell, but opted not to). And perhaps because he never conducted that extra training to obtain Grade III, he therefore never acquired the extra power Trunks did. In other words, it's not just that Vegeta never bothered learning the transformation, he also never bothered acquiring extra power he knew he wouldn't be able to use properly in battle.

Avery · Post by **Avery** » Tue Aug 04, 2015 8:16 am

Trunks was an idiot (or rather, Vegeta was the idiot for not telling him about the stupid form's weakness).
I hate engaging in battle power discussions, but I think Vegeta was the stronger one, as he was already stronger before they entered the ROSAT and that he's generally more experienced.

supercat · Post by **supercat** » Tue Aug 04, 2015 12:11 pm

As some of the others have already indicated, it probably came down to a point where Vegeta saw the drawbacks of bulking up to Grade 3 SSJ, so he instead focused on refining his techniques, controlling his power, and increasing his speed. Trunks, being the novice that he was at the time, probably felt that skyrocketing his power was the primary objective as well as the only way to obtain victory, and hence misinterpreted his father's decision to stay away from Grade 3 SSJ as plateauing.

Trunks blindly chasing after higher levels of power could also have been associated with the emotional turmoil that Gero's creations have inflicted upon him. After years of being taunted and tormented, he was probably so desperate to defeat the beings that had brought forth so much devastation in his life that he got sucked into the mentality of approaching his training with a narrow mind.

h0kuten · Post by **h0kuten** » Mon Aug 10, 2015 4:38 pm

Trunks is definitely no Vegeta when it comes to training. So yes, he was quite clearly, wrong.

Dagon · Post by **Dagon** » Mon Aug 17, 2015 6:29 am

Truhan wrote:Imagine it were like this:

SSJ - 50 times the increase over all base attributes.
SSJ Grade II - 60 times the increase in power and speed.
SSJ Grade III - 70 times the increase in power with speed loss.
SSJ Full Power - 80 times the increase over all base attributes.
So, even if Trunks were to be a bit weaker than Vegeta, he would have SSJ Grade III to surpass his father, who had only used Grade II.

I disagree with your power rankings. I consider it as the following:

Spoiler:

Blackstripe · Post by **Blackstripe** » Mon Aug 17, 2015 11:13 am

Dagon wrote:
Truhan wrote:Imagine it were like this:

SSJ - 50 times the increase over all base attributes.
SSJ Grade II - 60 times the increase in power and speed.
SSJ Grade III - 70 times the increase in power with speed loss.
SSJ Full Power - 80 times the increase over all base attributes.
So, even if Trunks were to be a bit weaker than Vegeta, he would have SSJ Grade III to surpass his father, who had only used Grade II.
I disagree with your power rankings. I consider it as the following:

Spoiler:
Base: The most natural state. The lowest stats but the highest stamina.
Power - [][]
Speed - [][]
Stamina - [][][][][][][][][][]

Super Saiyan: 50x Increase in stats with slight negative stamina effects like slowed ki regeneration rate because of "restless feelings."
Power - [][][][][]
Speed - [][][][][]
Stamina - [][][][][][][]

Super Saiyan Grade 2: 75x Increase in stats with bigger impact on stamina because of the higher power yield.
Power - [][][][][][][][
Speed - [][][][][][][][
Stamina - [][][][][][]

Super Saiyan Grade 3: 100x(or 125x if you think the power gaps would be too small) Increase in strength and power but a severe drop in speed and a somewhat bigger impact on stamina than Grade 2.
Power - [][][][][][][][][][]
(Alternative Power): [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
Speed - []
Stamina - [][][][][]

"Full-Power" Super Saiyan: 50x Increase with almost as much stamina as base due to no restless feelings.
Power - [][][][][]
Speed - [][][][][]
Stamina - [][][][][][][][][]

Super Saiyan 2: 100x Increase balanced across all stats with somewhat less stamina than FPSSJ due to higher power yield.
Power - [][][][][][][][][]
Speed - [][][][][][][][][]
Stamina - [][][][][][][

Super Saiyan 3: 400x Increase in Power and Speed with a severe drop in stamina because of the sheer amount of power.
Power - [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
Speed - [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
Stamina - [][][]

Problem there, is that there would be no real reason to stop using Grade 2 if the stamina drop was so insignificant. I honestly think your stamina drops more (enough for Goku not to like the form), and so does your speed, but not enough to negate the increase in power.

So, a Super Saiyan of equal power would be notably faster than Grade 2 SSJ, but that same Grade 2 SSJ would still be faster than he was as a normal SSJ due to the power increase.

Truhan · Post by **Truhan** » Mon Aug 17, 2015 4:04 pm

Dagon wrote:
Truhan wrote:Imagine it were like this:

SSJ - 50 times the increase over all base attributes.
SSJ Grade II - 60 times the increase in power and speed.
SSJ Grade III - 70 times the increase in power with speed loss.
SSJ Full Power - 80 times the increase over all base attributes.
I disagree with your power rankings.

They're quite arbitrary, but work with what seem to be the 3 main attributes: power; speed; and stamina, which shouldn't be confused with Ki consumption. Ki is what fuels these 3, and by placing more on Stamina, you allow the body to remain active for long. However, making a Grade 3 based on Stamina would eventually balance itself out, because your Power and Speed would be quite low, requiring more effort for you to dish out the same damage. Consider a Grade 2 based on Speed and Stamina instead, and you'd be able dodge attacks without getting tired, but power would fail you in case of contact, requiring more Ki to fuel it.

Think of FPSSJ as a balanced distribution where all stats are filled to the transformation's limit. What Goku and Gohan were at the Cell games should be called "mastered SSJ", because they had the resources to power up to their fullest, without gimping any other attribute. It's also strange that MSSJ would be just a SSJ without Ki drain, when we were shown multiple times that Goku and Vegeta could stay like that without wasting Ki (against Freeza and Android 19/20, respectively). I think it has more to do with using it as their natural state, allowing their resources to expand and be filled.

Kanzenshuu

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