What do you believe to be the series intended demographic?

[LowRyder2005]

A somewhat intriguing debate regarding and Dragon Ball's status as a "show for kids" or no the nature of "kid shows in themselves" has sparked in the latest Dragon Ball Super episode section.
Given the complexity of the question, it's probably worth a topic. I personally believe it could be fairly interesting to expand upon this.

I'll try to come up with a preface: agreeing that Dragon Ball is by all means and accounts a "shōnen manga" [roughly, and just for reference, it could be translated as "manga for boys" or "manga for young people"]...

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1. Taking two hypothetical extremes of a 6-year old and a 18-year old into account, what do you think would the intended demographic target of the manga, choosing a value in-between them? And what about the anime?


2. Taking again both manga and anime into consideration, do you feel there is a shift in tone from Dragon Ball to Dragon Ball Z? Throughout Dragon Ball Z? Moreover, do you think there is a shift in tone from Dragon Ball Z to Dragon Ball Super?


3. All in all, would you agree the entirety of Dragon Ball (Dragon Ball + Dragon Ball Z) is suitable for kids or children? Yes? No? Why?

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[Herms]

I don't want to be mean and shut down debate, but...it's a kids' series. A series for kids. The manga ran in a magazine of kids manga, and every TV series so far has aired in time slots for kids' shows. The author has talked about writing the series for kids, deciding the content by imagining what he liked as a child and looking at what his young son was currently into. It can and does appeal to older people too, but it's first and foremost aimed at children. That's simply a fact and there's no debate to be had about it. Everything else is just sheer denial.

[TheBlackPaladin]

The way I've always answered that question is to say that it's a show for kids, but it's a show for Japanese kids. Japan just has a higher tolerance for certain things than we do, such as violence, hence the misconceptions in non-Japanese countries about who the show is aimed at. I'm sure Toei wanted the show to be a hit internationally as well, but they are a Japanese company, adapting a story from a Japanese author, and so the Japanese way of thinking is their natural way of thinking.

[DBZMerciter2005]

As Herms said it's aimed to be a children's show. All evidence and even Toriyama himself says so. However the Japanese children shows I've seen wouldn't be considered a kid's show in the states. If I recall Shin-chan is a kid's show and that is an extremely dirty (albeit funny) show. I'd speculate that children shows in the states (I'm thinking Spongebob and Fairly Odd Parents specifically) wouldn't go over well in Japan because they're too childish and naive. That's just speculation, however.

Would DBZ be suitable for kids? Sure! The goriest thing you see is Tenshinhan's arm get cut off. Holes in chests and blown away body parts don't appear nearly as gruesome because the art style is less realistic than something like Hellsing or Akira. Naruto and even One Piece are worse than that in the gore category. The story isn't too difficult to understand and I wouldn't think it's too traumatizing either. It's a great show for kids that want some action.

[Kamiccolo9]

It's as much for kids as the Lion King is.

That is, there is plenty of stuff in there that make it enjoyable to adults, but it is, at its core, for kids.

[LowRyder2005]

I don't want to be mean and shut down debate, but...it's a kids' series. A series for kids. The manga ran in a magazine of kids manga, and every TV series so far has aired in time slots for kids' shows. The author has talked about writing the series for kids, deciding the content by imagining what he liked as a child and looking at what his young son was currently into. It can and does appeal to older people too, but it's first and foremost aimed at children. That's simply a fact and there's no debate to be had about it. Everything else is just sheer denial.

I don't think this is shutting the debate up, I think it's a possible answer.
"Kid' is a very broad term in itself, since a kid could be anywhere in-between very few years of age and late teen years (anything before "adult" probably). Even more, depending on nationality and culture heritage. So you're stating that, according the the viewer's cultural views there's a chance it could be suitable for basically anyone in that age range.

Since Japan and Western cultures have different preconceptions about what are suitable forms of "entertainment for kids" in general, a show aired in Japan may not follow America's guidelines and so on while adding other cultures to the mix. "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder", or rather "culture is in the mind of the receiver".

[TheBlackPaladin]

If I recall Shin-chan is a kid's show and that is an extremely dirty (albeit funny) show.

It is a little dirty, but in case you were pointing to FUNimation's dub as an indicator (and I'm not saying you were, of course), that's not the best one. FUNimation's dub is a "gag dub" which is to say that it's a dub that, by its own admission, pretty much completely abandons the original dialogue, story, and overall characterizations for the sake of gags, often at the expense of the show itself. It's a gag dub that was approved by the original animaton studio, but a gag dub nevertheless. On top of that, it's a gag dub aimed at an older audience, whereas the original show is much more kid-friendly.

Interestingly, there was a separate English dub, produced in the 90's in Los Angeles, that was significantly closer to the source material. Oddly enough, it only aired in the UK.

[Sayo-chan]

Aside from it being a shonen series, when Z was in its prime here in America, it was mainly popular with kids. By 2003 the anime was receiving well over a million viewers, almost entirely from T9-14 and B9-14 demographics. Accordingly, Dragon Ball Z was apparently the #1 show on cable for T9-14, B9-14 and M12-24 for a week during the fall of 2002. Based on the show's timeslot, it was intended for kids to watch after coming home from school. It wasn't like Yu Yu Hakusho, which aired on Adult Swim to reach a more mature audience, only to be taken off the block and placed on Toonami due to its popularity with kids. Z may have a mass appeal (as evidenced by having a strong M12-24 following), but that doesn't mean the intended main demographic isn't for children. All the evidence points towards it being marketed first and foremost for children.

To my knowledge, all of Dragon Ball's animated serials have been shonen. It's not at all similar to say, Cobra with its seinen sequel.

[huzaifa_ahmed]

I don't want to be mean and shut down debate, but...it's a kids' series. A series for kids. The manga ran in a magazine of kids manga, and every TV series so far has aired in time slots for kids' shows. The author has talked about writing the series for kids, deciding the content by imagining what he liked as a child and looking at what his young son was currently into. It can and does appeal to older people too, but it's first and foremost aimed at children. That's simply a fact and there's no debate to be had about it. Everything else is just sheer denial.

I don't think this is shutting the debate up, I think it's a possible answer.
"Kid' is a very broad term in itself, since a kid could be anywhere in-between very few years of age and late teen years (anything before "adult" probably). Even more, depending on nationality and culture heritage. So you're stating that, according the the viewer's cultural views there's a chance it could be suitable for basically anyone in that age range.

Since Japan and Western cultures have different preconceptions about what are suitable forms of "entertainment for kids" in general, a show aired in Japan may not follow America's guidelines and so on while adding other cultures to the mix. "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder", or rather "culture is in the mind of the receiver".

What is "Shonen Jump"'s target audience? It isn't a large range number-wise, but child development is certainly varied in that range itself.

It refers to a person under 15, and it's older than "kodomo" which is "child" and I will arbitrarily estimate the lower end to be the age of 9.

I am sure others can back up with understanding.

[Bullza]

It's kinda like Star Wars I suppose. George Lucas said those movies were for children but they can be enjoyed by anyone.

[LowRyder2005]

I don't want to be mean and shut down debate, but...it's a kids' series. A series for kids. The manga ran in a magazine of kids manga, and every TV series so far has aired in time slots for kids' shows. The author has talked about writing the series for kids, deciding the content by imagining what he liked as a child and looking at what his young son was currently into. It can and does appeal to older people too, but it's first and foremost aimed at children. That's simply a fact and there's no debate to be had about it. Everything else is just sheer denial.

I don't think this is shutting the debate up, I think it's a possible answer.
"Kid' is a very broad term in itself, since a kid could be anywhere in-between very few years of age and late teen years (anything before "adult" probably). Even more, depending on nationality and culture heritage. So you're stating that, according the the viewer's cultural views there's a chance it could be suitable for basically anyone in that age range.

Since Japan and Western cultures have different preconceptions about what are suitable forms of "entertainment for kids" in general, a show aired in Japan may not follow America's guidelines and so on while adding other cultures to the mix. "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder", or rather "culture is in the mind of the receiver".

What is "Shonen Jump"'s target audience? It isn't a large range number-wise, but child development is certainly varied in that range itself.

It refers to a person under 15, and it's older than "kodomo" which is "child" and I will arbitrarily estimate the lower end to be the age of 9.

I am sure others can back up with understanding.

You're possibly not that far off, although sources are scarce. The best thing I could find regarding the Japanese Weekly Shōnen is this:

Spoiler:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=1791

Which indicates that the average is 13 or 14. However, it's dated more than 10 years ago and it's just a statement from an American editor.

A slightly more recent source indicates that in America "The Shonen Jump reader is, on average, 16 year old" and "over half of the audience is between the age of 13 and 17."

Spoiler:

https://books.google.it/books?id=Y7jNuf ... ge&f=false

I don't know if we are to take that as golden rule anyway; the targeting audience of Weekly Shōnen Jump may not reflect how people feel about shōnen or some particular shōnen in general. Not even in Japan; for instance, 88% of One Piece's fans, your very typical shōnen, in 2011 were revealed to be adults (and prepare yourself to be shocked: 43% of fans are between the ages of 19 and 29, 32% are between the ages of 30 and 49, and 13% are over 50; the over 50 are more than the under 18).

Spoiler:

http://www.saiyanisland.com/2011/12/88- ... re-adults/

[Hellspawn28]

Dragon Ball is a series for kids. In Japan, the series is always popular with kids from pre-K up to the start of middle school. DBZ does deal with stuff like death and has blood, but so what? Watership Down is a movie and novel for kids, but that movie deal with some very dark stuff and is one of the most violent kids movie in my opinion. Also in Japan, series made for kids can deal with blood, gore and dark stuff too. If you look at the Kamen Rider and Ultraman series, they can get away with dark stories and even have blood (not as much as they used too).

If DBZ was not for kids then why is there is stuff for kids like happy meal toys, action figures made to be play with and trading cards. Even in the 90's, you had action figures for kids that where meant to be played with like this



Shows for older audience don't have a toy line that made to be played with for children. So the series being made for 4-10 is totally fine. Liking stuff for kids is totally okay since kid shows these days tend to have better writing then shows made for adults. In the US, Steven Universe, Adventure Time, Phineas and Ferb, TMNT, Regular Show, Gravity Falls, Transformers: Prime and Young Justice are shows for kids and yet they have better then most stuff for adults like Mr. Pickles and Keeping Up with the Kardashians.

[Sayo-chan]

Dragon Ball is a series for kids. In Japan, the series is always popular with kids from pre-K up to the start of middle school. DBZ does deal with stuff like death and has blood, but so what? Watership Down is a movie and novel for kids, but that movie deal with some very dark stuff and is one of the most violent kids movie in my opinion. Also in Japan, series made for kids can deal with blood, gore and dark stuff too. If you look at the Kamen Rider and Ultraman series, they can get away with dark stories and even have blood (not as much as they used too).

If DBZ was not for kids then why is there is stuff for kids like happy meal toys, action figures made to be play with and trading cards. Even in the 90's, you had action figures for kids that where meant to be played with like this



Shows for older audience don't have a toy line that made to be played with for children. So the series being made for 4-10 is totally fine. Liking stuff for kids is totally okay since kid shows these days tend to have better writing then shows made for adults. In the US, Steven Universe, Adventure Time, Phineas and Ferb, TMNT, Regular Show, Gravity Falls, Transformers: Prime and Young Justice are shows for kids and yet they have better then most stuff for adults like Mr. Pickles and Keeping Up with the Kardashians.

Woah. Don't jump the gun there. Mr. Pickles is an excellent show that certainly deserved its second season renewal. I also don't think the new TMNT show or Phineas and Pherb are all on par with the rest of the shows you mentioned. That said, I really don't think people are drawn to Dragon Ball because of its writing, so much as its characterization.

[LowRyder2005]

Dragon Ball is a series for kids. In Japan, the series is always popular with kids from pre-K up to the start of middle school. DBZ does deal with stuff like death and has blood, but so what? Watership Down is a movie and novel for kids, but that movie deal with some very dark stuff and is one of the most violent kids movie in my opinion. Also in Japan, series made for kids can deal with blood, gore and dark stuff too. If you look at the Kamen Rider and Ultraman series, they can get away with dark stories and even have blood (not as much as they used too).

If DBZ was not for kids then why is there is stuff for kids like happy meal toys, action figures made to be play with and trading cards. Even in the 90's, you had action figures for kids that where meant to be played with like this



Shows for older audience don't have a toy line that made to be played with for children. So the series being made for 4-10 is totally fine. Liking stuff for kids is totally okay since kid shows these days tend to have better writing then shows made for adults. In the US, Steven Universe, Adventure Time, Phineas and Ferb, TMNT, Regular Show, Gravity Falls, Transformers: Prime and Young Justice are shows for kids and yet they have better then most stuff for adults like Mr. Pickles and Keeping Up with the Kardashians.

I strongly disagree, if just on one thing."Franchise X has product Y for children, therefore the entire franchise is intended to appeal specifically to children" is not a really solid logical argument.
For instance, for every big franchise in the world there is merchandise aimed to different age groups:

* DC has merchandising of Batman and Superman for kids (toys) and merchandise for adults (high quality 3d models)
* Marvel has comics for pre-schoolers and (actually had) Marvel Knights for some time, grittier and edgier, for adults
* Lego has cheap sets parents can afford to buy for their children and incredibly pricey sets (like "The Death Star", priced over $500) aimed to adult collectors

I could go, but for the sake of the argument, like I said in another topic, every single Dragon Ball game released on a home console that I can remember is rated "T", "12", or "15+", the latest being Xenoverse - which even in Japan is rated 15+. So you could say that even the Dragon Ball franchise has "toys made for children" and "videogames made for pre-teens/teens".
Needless to say that all Dragon Ball games are basically carbon copies of what happens in the manga/anime and do no to really shift much in tone from the source material.

I even have a little personal experience: I collected some 3D Dragon Ball GT models once, which were more or less plastic garbage. I was probably 11 or 12. Maybe even 13 or 14.

[Herms]

It's kinda like Star Wars I suppose. George Lucas said those movies were for children but they can be enjoyed by anyone.

That's a good analogy. People get into Star Wars as kids, and may stay invested in the series as adults. So you get a lot of adults into Star Wars, and more expensive merchandise aimed at them, but the primary target audience for most Star Wars products remains kids.

Shonen series like DB or One Piece work the same way. People get hooked as kids and might keep reading/watching as adults, but how many people are coming to DB as adults with no prior experience of the franchise and getting hooked?

[VegettoEX]

but how many people are coming to DB as adults with no prior experience of the franchise and getting hooked?

It does happen, there are some of them here, and they'd be more than happy to talk about that experience getting into it as adults...

... but that's also a VERY self-selective audience considering what you're asking of them and what to describe. None of the new generation of kids are going to come HERE to tell us about getting into it and how awesome the characters are and zang boom pow.

So yeah, I do want to acknowledge the incoming adult fans, but they're kinda hilariously small compared to what the marketing machine is up to on the younger scale.

[Hellspawn28]

Would DBZ be suitable for kids? Sure! The goriest thing you see is Tenshinhan's arm get cut off. Holes in chests and blown away body parts don't appear nearly as gruesome because the art style is less realistic than something like Hellsing or Akira.

People do over look at the violence in the series. Compared to a lot of the PG-13 movies out in the last 10 years, Dragon Ball Z is quite tame. The blood and gore is not on the same level of Mortal Kombat or Saw.

Woah. Don't jump the gun there. Mr. Pickles is an excellent show that certainly deserved its second season renewal. I also don't think the new TMNT show or Phineas and Pherb are all on par with the rest of the shows you mentioned. That said, I really don't think people are drawn to Dragon Ball because of its writing, so much as its characterization.

I find Mr. Pickles to be horrible. The animation is terrible and I didn't like a single character in that show. I watch a show for a killer dog and most of the episodes feature characters that I don't give a shit about.

I strongly disagree. The "franchise X has product Y for children, therefore the entire franchise is intended to appeal specifically to children" is not a really solid logical argument.
I could go, but for the sake of the argument, like I said in another topic, every single Dragon Ball game released on a home console that I can remember is rated "T", "12", or "15+", the latest being Xenoverse - which even in Japan is rated 15+. So you could say that even the Dragon Ball franchise has "toys made for children" and "videogames made for pre-teens/teens".

Yeah there are video games and toys for older fans, but the series is still market to mainly for children. Dragon Ball still has toys and merchandise made mainly for childern. Vinyl dolls and transforming gimmicky figures are meant to be played with. Most of the toy line for the series is made for children. Other series for kids like Transformers have games that are rated T and yet the series is still market to kids as their main audience.

[Sayo-chan]

It's kinda like Star Wars I suppose. George Lucas said those movies were for children but they can be enjoyed by anyone.

That's a good analogy. People get into Star Wars as kids, and may stay invested in the series as adults. So you get a lot of adults into Star Wars, and more expensive merchandise aimed at them, but the primary target audience for most Star Wars products remains kids.

Shonen series like DB or One Piece work the same way. People get hooked as kids and might keep reading/watching as adults, but how many people are coming to DB as adults with no prior experience of the franchise and getting hooked?

I don't know about in Japan, but in America that's fairly common. The M12-24 demographic was fairly significant in 2002-2003 for Z on Toonami, which at the higher end of the demographic doesn't leave much room for them to've gotten into the series as kids. Even though it's anecdotal, I've also witnessed this in the past few years with Kai's revival airing on Nicktoons.

...

The animation suits its purpose. It's supposed to be similar to Superjail!/Metalocalypse. I think it adds to the overall charm of the show. I mean, that's fine you don't care about the other characters, but myself as well as a number of others don't share that view. I don't see it as being fair to say that somehow makes it inherently worse than something like Phineas and Ferb.

[sintzu]

It's aimed at everyone.

It's not too violent and doesn't have any adult themes so kids can watch it but it also has good action,stories&characters that will attract adults.

[ABED]

Merchandise alone isn't enough to say something is for kids. They made children's toys for Terminator 2.

It's aimed at everyone.

There's a difference between intended audience and those the show actually attracts.