Was Goku holding back as a SS2 against Majin Vegeta?

[TKB21]

At this point in the series Goku has already reached SS3, a form so difficult to achieve that it has only been attainable (non-fused) in the afterlife. Goku stated himself that it took him several years just to reach it. Up to now there hasn't been any evidence that the form was granted through some augmentation or ritual as was done for Mysitc Gohan or SSG. If I had to guess he was most likely training in highest form at the time (SS2) in order to break the current power ceiling as seen during the Cell Saga. With all that being said wouldn't Goku by default have far better control over SS2 than Vegeta? The fight between the two is shown to be pretty even despite this. I'd like to believe that the luxuries of not having to worry about strain in the afterlife would also benefit training as a SS2 as well, allowing Goku to finesse his technique vs. Vegeta who on earth was limited to the constraints of his body.

[DBZAOTA482]

No. He was 100% serious the whole match.

[yamu]

Goku's own statements point to them being even as SSJ2. Unless something changed along the course of the fight, I'm perfectly happy to go along with those words. I guess its fair to say that if he was worried about Vegeta's pride, his motivation can always be brought into question.

[Darkprince410]

Even if Goku had better control of Super Saiya-jin 2 than Vegeta, that and the fact that he was dead would simply allow him to sustain the Ssj2 form for longer than Vegeta might have been able to. It wouldn't result in him having any kind of power advantage over Vegeta, simply less issue with the ki drain the form normally suffers from. It'd be like what Goku and Gohan did for the regular Ssj form during their time in the Room of Spirit and Time. The transformation itself was no stronger than Goku's transformation on Namek or Vegeta's transformation to fight #19 (simply a 50x increase from the base), but Goku and Gohan had grown so accustomed to the form, that the ki drain associated with it was significantly reduced. The same would be the case with Goku's Ssj2 against Vegeta. Sure, he might be able to fight for longer due to the drain being less impacting, but he wouldn't actually be stronger than Vegeta.

[FoolsGil]

Hm. I never even considered that. But I would believe that the Majin boost would equal Goku's complete mastery of SSJ2

[LuckyCat]

You would think that if Goku really wanted to, he could channel just a sliver of SSJ3 power into his SSJ2 form, not unlike what he did when he fought Yakon and used a little burst of SSJ2 power while in SSJ form.

[Darkprince410]

You would think that if Goku really wanted to, he could channel just a sliver of SSJ3 power into his SSJ2 form, not unlike what he did when he fought Yakon and used a little burst of SSJ2 power while in SSJ form.

That's not what he did though. He simply burst briefly into Ssj2 to overload him and make him blow up. There's never been any indicator that you could draw on the higher forms of power, otherwise the forms wouldn't be static multipliers.

[LuckyCat]

That's not what he did though. He simply burst briefly into Ssj2 to overload him and make him blow up. There's never been any indicator that you could draw on the higher forms of power, otherwise the forms wouldn't be static multipliers.

In that case, Goku could just briefly burst SSJ3 like he does with Super Buu later. In that sense, he was holding back.

As for just SSJ2, Vegeta says no matter how much he trained, Goku would still be ahead of him, thus he allowed himself to become Majin. So even if Goku did have more control over SSJ2, which he probably did, any advantage Goku had was balanced by whatever Vegeta got in Majin form (increased power, durability, and stamina).

Actually is there any material that explains what the Majin transformation does, because I feel like the manga is pretty sparse here.

[ekrolo2]

That's not what he did though. He simply burst briefly into Ssj2 to overload him and make him blow up. There's never been any indicator that you could draw on the higher forms of power, otherwise the forms wouldn't be static multipliers.

In that case, Goku could just briefly burst SSJ3 like he does with Super Buu later. In that sense, he was holding back.

As for just SSJ2, Vegeta says no matter how much he trained, Goku would still be ahead of him, thus he allowed himself to become Majin. So even if Goku did have more control over SSJ2, which he probably did, any advantage Goku had was balanced by whatever Vegeta got in Majin form (increased power, durability, and stamina).

Actually is there any material that explains what the Majin transformation does, because I feel like the manga is pretty sparse here.

It appears to work as a bit of a potential unlock, giving the user access to power they couldn't access, that's about as much as we know I think.

[Tectorman]

I don't think we can assume that there is only one kind of Majin boost. First of all, when Babidi turns Vegeta. He first establishes control, then he unlocks Vegeta's latent power. For all we know, those are two separate spells.

Second of all, Spopovitch's boost allowed him to survive a broken neck, and it masked his ki. We don't know that Majin Vegeta could've survived a broken neck (though we do know that his busted arm stayed busted), and we do know that his energy could still be felt. So for all we know, Babidi boosted Spopovitch and Yamu with an entirely separate method from what he used with Vegeta.

[Darkprince410]

The entire discussion though is if he was holding back while Ssj2, which everything that is established indicates he wasn't doing.

As for what the Ma-jin effect did, the explanation si the same pretty much everywhere. It brings the individual under Babi-di's control (or at least attempts to) and brings out their hidden power beyond the individual's limits.

Second of all, Spopovitch's boost allowed him to survive a broken neck, and it masked his ki. We don't know that Majin Vegeta could've survived a broken neck (though we do know that his busted arm stayed busted), and we do know that his energy could still be felt. So for all we know, Babidi boosted Spopovitch and Yamu with an entirely separate method from what he used with Vegeta.

The Daizenshuu suggests it's all just the same ability, and not two different methods.

Manipulation Sorcery
First Appearance: Chapter 456
Category: sorcery
People: Babidi
Special Characteristics: This penetrates into the heart crevices of those with evil hearts, putting them under Babidi’s control, and at the same time drawing that person’s hidden power out beyond their limits. Those taken in by this art, like Dabura and Yakon, become Babidi’s subordinates and are denoted by an M-shaped mark sealed on their forehead. After entering Babidi’s spaceship with Kaioshin and the others in order to stop Majin Buu’s revival, Vegeta purposefully was taken in by this art in order to power himself up and have a showdown with Goku. (Daizenshuu 4, p.62)

[Hitiro]

The Daizenshuu suggests it's all just the same ability, and not two different methods.

Manipulation Sorcery
First Appearance: Chapter 456
Category: sorcery
People: Babidi
Special Characteristics: This penetrates into the heart crevices of those with evil hearts, putting them under Babidi’s control, and at the same time drawing that person’s hidden power out beyond their limits. Those taken in by this art, like Dabura and Yakon, become Babidi’s subordinates and are denoted by an M-shaped mark sealed on their forehead. After entering Babidi’s spaceship with Kaioshin and the others in order to stop Majin Buu’s revival, Vegeta purposefully was taken in by this art in order to power himself up and have a showdown with Goku. (Daizenshuu 4, p.62)

The manga makes the distinction that the Majin effect and the unlocking of the persons potential are two separate things though.

Chapter: 456 (DBZ 262), P4.3
Context: as Babidi takes control of Vegeta
Babidi: “While I’m at it, I’ll draw out his hidden power to beyond [his? its?] limits!”

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I think the Daizenshuu's interpretation makes more sense overall. If not, then Vegeta, Spopovitch, and Yamu were very lucky Bobbidi decided to bring out their hidden power.

I'd like to think Bobbidi would want all of his henchmen to be fighting at their highest level.

[Kaboom]

I see it as a two-step process. Bobbidi can bring out someone's dormant power, but only if they're under his magic spell. It's not just an automatic side-effect of getting majin-ized.

[MajinBrolyYamcha]

Yes he was holding back against SSj2 Majin Vegeta, as he had ssj3.