DBZ Alternate Timeline Theory Makes Absolutely no Sense.

[Hit!!]

Everybody uses this graph as the official guide of DBZ alternate timelines or as an official explanation of it, but if you look closely (not even that closely), there's a major plothole if this is somehow the explanation used at a certain moment by Toriyama and Toei.

I'm basing this off the rules of alternate timeline theory explained by Qaaman in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lh58fPJtfR4

Now, this theory makes no sense because Cell couldn't have arrives in both Timeline 3 and 4 at the same time (age 763), so I'm gonna go with the logical theory, that Cell was the one who created the main timeline (timeline 4, the one where the whole tv series takes place), now the question is, who created the History of Trunks Timeline (timeline 3)?? It couldn't have been cell, because he created timeline 4 and it makes no sense. Cell explicitly said himself that he killed trunks from timeline 1 and went back in time to age 763, arriving in our timeline. Also, we never hear anything about cell in History of Trunks, neither does cell himself say anything about it. I believe that timeline 3 (History of Trunks timeline) already existed and was created by someone or something that we still haven't seen (Black Goku maybe??) before age 763. Maybe Black Goku is here to solve that plothole.

What are your thoughts. And please read closely before responding, this is a complicated subject and it's easy to get lost and misunderstand my comment. Timeline 3 is Future Trunks's Timeline and Timeline 4 is the main timeline, our timeline and Timeline 1 is the original timeline, where the Cell we all know and love comes from.

[Cipher]

now the question is, who created the History of Trunks Timeline (timeline 3)?? It couldn't have been cell, because he created timeline 4 and it makes no sense. Cell explicitly said himself that he killed trunks from timeline 1 and went back in time to age 763, arriving in our timeline. Also, we never hear anything about cell in History of Trunks, neither does cell himself say anything about it. I believe that timeline 3 (History of Trunks timeline) already existed and was created by someone or something that we still haven't seen (Black Goku maybe??) before age 763. Maybe Black Goku is here to solve that plothole.

"Timeline 3" (the one of our Future Trunks) is identical to the timeline of the Trunks killed by Cell until he goes back into the past. The creation of his timeline -- as in, the reason it deviates from the timeline of the Trunks killed by Cell -- is due to his going back into a past affected by Cell.

Basically, Cell doesn't go into the past of "Timeline 3," ever. He does create a second alternate past, though, and -- this does get a little paradoxical, I guess, since it depends on splintering from a discreet action (Cell's going back into the past) that occurs at a particular time -- and that's the one our Trunks then visits when he goes back.

You could say that the creation of both Timelines 3 and 4 (the main series and our Future Trunks timeline) were the inevitable and instantaneous results of Cell arriving at a point earlier than Trunks. He created a new alternate past, which then altered the future of the Trunks that visited it as well. As soon as he goes back, the original two timelines are destined to be cut off/overwritten.*

*(Due to the way time travel works in Dragon Ball, both those timelines would still "exist," but they'd be impossible for anyone in the main series' two timelines to travel to.)

[Speedster]

(For the purposes of this discussion I am going to refer to timeline 1 as T1, timeline 2 as T2 and so on).

For starters in Qaaman's timeline theory, the original timeline is not T1 but T2. Also the theory assumes that some events are bounded to happen in case certain events happen prior to them. And this also includes the decisions to travel to the past. Anyway T2 Trunks went back to the past and as a result he created T1 - a replica of T2 for up to Age 764. In T1, the T1 Z warriors together with T2 Trunks managed to defeat the T1 Androids (possibly with the remote suspension controller). Then T2 Trunks returned to his own timeline (T2) and beat the T2 Androids in a similar fashion they did in T1. Then 3 years later from the timepoint he returned, in Age 788, he intended for some reason to go farther to the past, to Age 763. However he was ambushed and killed by T2 Cell and it was T2 Cell who went back in time instead. According to the theory if you go back farther in time than before another timeline is created, hence the creation of T3 -a replica of T2 up to Age 763.

Then the theory wants to make T3 almost identical to T2 for up to Age 785. To do so it assumes that T2 Cell tried to ambush and absorb T3 Androids #17 and #18 but the Androids managed to kill him so nothing practically changed in T3 compared to T2 due to the actions of T2 Cell there. Then T3 Trunks, similar to T2 Trunks, went back in time. This is the crucial bit. By going back in time he created T4, a replica of T3 up to Age 764 and that includes T2 Cell hidden underground (as he arrived there since 763).

So yeah, T2 Cell got duplicated due to T3 Trunks' timetravel. Why is this any more surprising than everyone else getting duplicated? I guess it sounds a bit paradoxical that this duplicated person is a Future entity travelling to the past but, you see, this is a 4D spacetime whereas time and sequence of events is just an illusion. T4 already existed in spacetime as it was destined for T3 Trunks to travel to the past and create it. Basically the moment T2 Cell travelled to the past he also found himself getting split/duplicated into T3 and T4 (and this is due to the actions of T3 Trunks who is another time-traveller, a T3-originated time-traveller).

Anyway the story continues with T3 Trunks warning the T4 Z warriors about the Androids and we see the subsequent events in our screens. T2 Cell absorbed the T4 Androids and became perfect, T4 Gohan killed him while T3 Trunks became strong enough so that when he returned to T3 he killed the T3 Androids and T3 Cell on his own.

[Cipher]

It can be helpful, too, to think of Cell's time travel not creating the alternate future, but the alternate past, which then influences Trunks' future.

Basically, Cell traveling back earlier than Trunks creates a splinter timeline -- which I think we're all okay with. But since most things are the same, that past is destined to be visited by Trunks just as the original was. What happens to the Trunks who visits this newly altered past? Obviously his future is going to deviate as well, due to his familiarity with Cell, and all the other butterfly-effect changes of another time traveler in the past.

If it helps, too, you can think of all timelines being created in an instant: Cell creates two timelines the instant he arrives in the past a year before Trunks, but for him to steal the time machine in the first place, two other timelines must already have existed (Cell's and the past altered by the Trunks he kills). Four timelines are destined to come into being the instant the time machine is created, provided it's stolen by Cell.

And that is why time travel is illegal.

Then the theory wants to make T3 almost identical to T2 for up to Age 785. To do so it assumes that T2 Cell tried to ambush and absorb T3 Androids #17 and #18 but the Androids managed to kill him so nothing practically changed in T3 compared to T2 due to the actions of T2 Cell there. Then T3 Trunks, similar to T2 Trunks, went back in time. This is the crucial bit. By going back in time he created T4, a replica of T3 up to Age 764 and that includes T2 Cell hidden underground (as he arrived there since 763).

It's somewhat misleading to even label him as "T3 Trunks" before he arrives in the past though, since nothing has happened to deviate it from T2 at that point. Rather, it makes more sense to say that Cell creates "T4," and as soon as "T2 Trunks" arrives in it, his future is destined to be different, becoming "T3 Trunks."

It isn't Timeline 3 (the Future Trunks timeline we get to know in the series) that creates Timeline 4 (the present we seen in the series). Rather, it's Timeline 4 that creates Timeline 3, as the difference in future timelines doesn't occur until Trunks arrives in the altered past.

It's all semantics, but it's easier to think of it that way. Cell alters the past, which is still destined to have Trunks arrive in it. When Trunks enters that past, his future splits off from there, and winds up taking a different course from the one who was killed by Cell.

Or, taking a more causal approach (and ignoring the numbering system used above, which is why I dislike numbering these in general):

The first timeline is the original future. The androids arrive and kill everyone. Trunks travels back into the past, finds a way to defeat the androids, and is eventually killed by his timeline's Cell.

The second timeline is the past that was altered by that Trunks, where he found a way to stop the androids. Cell never travels to it. Because ...

As soon as Cell travels back earlier than Trunks, he creates both a third and fourth timeline. The third is the past he alters (the main series), and the fourth is the different future timeline destined to play out due to Trunks still arriving in the past and having a different set of experiences.

[Hit!!]

Ohh ok, now I'm starting to get it... Guess I was wrong and Qaaman was right all along.

[Cipher]

Ohh ok, now I'm starting to get it... Guess I was wrong and Qaaman was right all along.

To be fair, that chart you posted (which I'd never seen before) is needlessly confusing. It seems to indicate Cell arrives in the past of both the main series and "our" Future Trunks. That's not the case. Only the main series' timeline has Cell arriving in it. Our Trunks' future just changes because he visits this Cell-influenced past.

[Speedster]

It can be helpful, too, to think of Cell's time travel not creating the alternate future, but the alternate past, which then influences Trunks' future.

It's somewhat misleading to even label him as "T3 Trunks" before he arrives in the past though, since nothing has happened to deviate it from T2 at that point. Rather, it makes more sense to say that Cell creates "T4," and as soon as "T2 Trunks" arrives in it, his future is destined to be different, becoming "T3 Trunks."

It isn't Timeline 3 (the Future Trunks timeline we get to know in the series) that creates Timeline 4 (the present we seen in the series). Rather, it's Timeline 4 that creates Timeline 3, as the difference in future timelines doesn't occur until Trunks arrives in the altered past.

It's all semantics, but it's easier to think of it that way. Cell alters the past, which is still destined to have Trunks arrive in it. When Trunks enters that past, his future splits off from there, and winds up taking a different course from the one who was killed by Cell.

Yes, but which Trunks is the one that is destined to arrive to that timeline (T4)? There must be a Trunks that decides to make the trip to the past. It can't be T2 Trunks - we know that this one travels back and forth to T1 (which is different from T4) and defeats the Androids in T2. And of course it can't be T1 or T4 Trunks. It needs to be T3 Trunks. He needs to exist to travel to the main timeline. It kinda becomes "what was made first the egg or the chicken?" question as always with causality in time-travel. Of course you can tell the same that I said above for Cell. Due to the actions of Cell, who is another timetraveller, the moment T2 Trunks started travelling back in time, he found himself duplicating T2 with one version of himself (the T2 one) arriving at T1 (that didn't have Cell underground) and his duplicate (the "T3" one) arriving in T4 (which did have Cell buried underground). The difference in this approach from Qaaman's theory is that you don't have T2 Cell buried underground in T3 and the need to make the assumption about a failed ambush of T2 Cell on the T3 Androids. T3 is just a true replica of T2 up to age 784 (and they continue to be identical up to 785) and was created due to the timetravel of T2 Trunks.

Or, taking a more causal approach (and ignoring the numbering system used above, which is why I dislike numbering these in general)

A more casual approach is to consider that Trunks comes from the supposedly original future (up to age 784) and Cell comes from Future Trunks' original future. So Cell's timeline is truly what was supposed to happen up to age 788. Future Trunks essentially altered the past of Cell's timeline, creating his own separate Future Trunks timeline and he also changed the past of his own timeline, creating the main timeline.

[Cipher]

Yes, but which Trunks is the one that is destined to arrive to that timeline (T4)?

There's only one Trunks until the creation of the main series' timeline creates another (because arriving in the past altered by Cell leads to a different outcome for him). The Trunks' timelines don't split until that first trip into the past.

There's the original Trunks. Cell kills him, steals the time machine, and arrives in the past. Since that past still has a Trunks arriving in it (the same one, so to speak, that would be killed by Cell), it creates a separate outcome for him due to its differences.

The Trunks who arrives in your "T4" is your "T2" Trunks. He's destined to be killed by Cell until the moment he arrives in a different version of the past. "T4" creates the "T3" Trunks, so to speak, by changing his outcome from what it originally was.

Cell creates both a different outcome for the past and for Trunks by arriving a year earlier. That's why he creates two divergences/alternate timelines at the same time.

And of course it can't be T1 or T4 Trunks. It needs to be T3 Trunks. He needs to exist to travel to the main timeline.

It's definitely a chicken-or-the-egg kind of situation, as is all of this, which is why I proposed thinking of it all as an instantaneous series of splits above. I just want to clarify that it's not as if a different Trunks decides to travel into the past of the main series. If anything, the timeline of the main series creates a new Trunks. (Or, even easier, Cell creates two new timelines by arriving in the past before Trunks, since both the past and Trunks' future, since he interacts with that past, will have to play out differently.)

[Desassina]

I liked this one, to be honest:

Spoiler:

It assumes that Trunks is dead at the end, because it's what Cell told us from the time he departed. It means that there were two Cells in the timeline: the one who arrives from the future, hiding underground through the years; and the other who grows in the lab, waking up to kill Trunks or getting destroyed (in the present). Expand or collapse this scheme and you'll see that certain events get super positioned to favour the main line, and that the others are only part of Cell and Trunks' memory. Take DB Super as canon, and this theory won't work, except with a few work arounds.

[Zephyr]

The official explanations for all of this have always been needlessly confusing to me. Especially Trunks just somehow entering a different past, and then a random 4th timeline being created. I follow a more simplified version of what desirecampbell does here. I always assume that whenever someone travels to the past, they create a new timeline. One can also "return" to the timeline from which they traveled, without creating a new one, which also isn't exactly the same as "traveling into the future" of whatever timeline they're currently in.

Here's my personal chart to make sense of it. It's not fancy, lacks dates and images, but it works well enough to illustrate the relationship between the timelines.



First instance of timeline splintering would have to be Trunks traveling from the Original Timeline (in Green), to the newly created Second Timeline (in Orange), where the Cyborgs of the past are defeated with a shutdown controller (I also like to place Movie 7 here because it's funny). He then returns to the Original Timeline (in Green), shuts the Cyborgs of his time down, and gets killed by Cell.

The second instance of timeline splintering would have to be Cell stealing Trunks' time machine and traveling from the Original Timeline (in Green), to the newly created Third Timeline (in Purple), where Cell burrows underground and hibernates. This is where things get tricky. See, the only way for me to make sense of all of this is for Cell to die in hibernation, and for things to go bad as usual: Goku dies (from heart attack), then everyone else dies (from cyborg attack), then Gohan dies (from cyborg attack).

Then the third instance of timeline splintering would have to be when Trunks (the one we know and love) travels from the Third Timeline (in Purple), to the newly created Fourth Timeline (in Pink). Pink Timeline is where the Cell Games, Buu, etc. happen.

[Darknat]

Original Timeline (T1) is the one that the androids kill everyone, trunks goes back into the past, and after coming back manages to defeat the androids somehow. He is later killed by Cell. Cell thne goes back to the past.

T2: Is the one created by Trunks when travelling back in time. They seem to also defeat the androids here, but not much is known about that.

T3: Is our main series. This one is created because Cell goes from T1 to the past of T2 (which was what Trunks was doing). The thing here is that since he goes back in time 1 more year than Trunks, he creates a separate timeline, but this timeline is based on T2 which has Trunks appearing in it. This creates also T4 to compensate for this, which is what we know as future Trunks timeline.

T4: Created also by cell traveling back to the past of T2, which creates both T3 and T4.


This is how I see it and I don't seem many plotholes this way besides T1 Trunks having pre programmed that date on the Time Machine.

[Cipher]

Finally watched that video. I can see how things became further confused for the thread author.

The video implies, like that image, that Cell somehow directly creates our Future Trunks' timeline. Which is ... true, in a way, but it's more round-about. He doesn't actually enter the history of our Trunks. Rather, he creates the timeline of the main series, which then provides a different outcome for Trunks, who is still set to arrive in it a year later.

Don't watch Dragon Ball YouTube videos. The most reliable ones just quote from Kanzenshuu site material anyway.

The second instance of timeline splintering would have to be Cell stealing Trunks' time machine and traveling from the Original Timeline (in Green), to the newly created Third Timeline (in Purple), where Cell burrows underground and hibernates. This is where things get tricky. See, the only way for me to make sense of all of this is for Cell to die in hibernation, and for things to go bad as usual: Goku dies (from heart attack), then everyone else dies (from cyborg attack), then Gohan dies (from cyborg attack).

Then the third instance of timeline splintering would have to be when Trunks (the one we know and love) travels from the Third Timeline (in Purple), to the newly created Fourth Timeline (in Pink). Pink Timeline is where the Cell Games, Buu, etc. happen.

You're making the same mistake as the video/chart, though -- assuming that Cell ends up in a past version of Future Trunks' timeline.

He doesn't. Trunks has already altered the past, so Cell arrives in a version of the past that's already destined to have Trunks arrive in it. Because Cell goes back even earlier, Trunks winds up with a different future, due to his interactions with Cell in the past.

If you want to number the different timelines/take a more causal approach than is perhaps necessary, Future Trunks' "good" ending (i.e. the timeline of the Trunks we know) is the last one created.

In more detail, because I still don't know if I've expressed myself sufficiently:

Timeline 1 (Cell's/Future Trunks' original ending): Goku fights Freeza and King Cold, contracts his heart virus and dies. The androids kill the remaining warriors two years later. Trunks and Gohan fight the androids until Gohan dies. Trunks travels into the past to find a means of defeating the androids, and is successful. He returns to his future, defeats the androids, and is killed by Cell.

Timeline 2 (Unseen, product of Trunks' time travel): Trunks most likely fights Freeza and King Cold (unless the way things play out in the main series are a result of Cell's time travel), Goku survives his heart virus thanks to Trunks' medicine. They all find some way of defeating the androids, and Trunks returns to his future. Nothing more is known. As soon as this timeline is created, it is the past into which all other time travelers would enter, though further splits could be created by going back even further.

Timeline 3 (Main series, product of Cell and Trunks' time travel): Cell arrives a year before Trunks. Trunks fights Freeza and King Cold. Goku survives his heart virus. Before everyone can find some means of stopping the androids, Cell makes himself known. (It's possible even the androids' gentler personalities are butter-fly-effect results of two separate time travelers influencing things, but we can't know for sure.) The main series plays out from there.

Timeline 4 (Future Trunks' "good" ending, the product of Trunks returning to the future from Timeline 3): This further altered past leads to a different outcome for Trunks once he returns to the future. Due to his experiences with Cell, he's able to overpower both the androids and his would-be killer, creating a split from Timeline 1.

[Desassina]

In more detail, because I still don't know if I've expressed myself sufficiently:

Timeline 1 (Cell's/Future Trunks' original ending): Goku fights Freeza and King Cold, contracts his heart virus and dies. The androids kill the remaining warriors two years later. Trunks and Gohan fight the androids until Gohan dies. Trunks travels into the past to find a means of defeating the androids, and is successful. He returns to his future, defeats the androids, and is killed by Cell.

"In more detail" needs to account for the details, and Cell came from a time when Trunks had killed Freeza and King Cold. I haven't read the rest from here.

[Cipher]

"In more detail" needs to account for the details, and Cell came from a time when Trunks had killed Freeza and King Cold. I haven't read the rest from here.

Oh, right. That really fucks everything up, huh?

Was the line about not needing cells from Trunks anime-only?

If not, I'm still going to chalk it up as a plot hole. Cell doesn't time travel into Trunks' era -- he grows up in it. It makes absolutely no sense for another Trunks to have time traveled into that past.

Not only would that imply a fifth timeline, you'd probably need a bunch of other ones to explain why Future Trunks remembers Goku killing Freeza when he arrives in the past. (You'd basically have to present a case for our Future Trunks having a different past from the one Cell kills, and that would require a ton of extra time-traveling and timelines.)

There are several no-joke plot holes in the Cell arc no matter how you slice it, which is understandable given Toriyama's approach of writing on the fly:

There's Trunks' infamous "Androids 19 and 20" warning, which was altered in collected releases and left out of the anime due to the manga already having taken an alternate approach. There's Cell's indication that Trunks already had the time machine set for a year earlier than he originally arrived, which makes very little sense and overrides a perfectly good explanation that Cell has a four-year gestation period (so he'd want to arrive four years before the androids activate). And, if his line about Trunks killing Freeza is present in the manga, I'd include that as well.

[Desassina]

The panels show him talking about the super computer deeming Trunks' DNA unnecessary with Freeza and King Cold's death by his hand. You can say that Cell got his memories overwritten when he arrived before Trunks' interference, which developed into his future, the one that Cell will have departed from. It's like a single timeline that is self correcting the more people travel back, which includes overwriting memories, to avoid character duplicates.

[Zephyr]

Timeline 2 (Unseen, product of Trunks' time travel): Trunks most likely fights Freeza and King Cold (unless the way things play out in the main series are a result of Cell's time travel), Goku survives his heart virus thanks to Trunks' medicine. They all find some way of defeating the androids, and Trunks returns to his future. Nothing more is known. As soon as this timeline is created, it is the past into which all other time travelers would enter, though further splits could be created by going back even further.

I think this part is the cause for the assumption that Cell's time travel created our Future Trunks' timeline. It just doesn't make any sense to me that Cell would jump into an already existing timeline by traveling further into the past, rather then creating a new splinter altogether.

If traveling to the past once created a new timeline, rather than altering the past of the already existing one, I don't see why Cell traveling to the past wouldn't also create a new timeline, rather than entering an already existing one.

The major implication for the series is that you can't actually change a timeline, only create a new one. That's why Trunks' future isn't saved just by defeating/taming the Androids in the past.

I know Cell creating our Future Trunks' timeline is neither said nor implied, necessarily, and it's pretty odd to think about, but I think it is the lesser of two evils when compared to assuming that the time travel mechanics would suddenly work inconsistently.

---

When it comes to the whole "Cell thinks he would get cells from Trunks killing Freeza" conundrum, I like to think that Cell is stupid, making assumptions, and not actually trying to rack his brain around all of this. Which is fine, why would he? He's just trying to absorb him some androids, after all.

When it comes to Trunks intending to travel to the time that he had set, I just assume Cell bumped it, and Trunks wasn't actually planning to go anywhere, and is just making more assumptions to make quick sense of things, that quickly fall apart under closer scrutiny.

I mean, I know this is Dragon Ball, and this is Toriyama, so this is pretty much an attempt by the author at exposition, but unless it's the narrator saying all of these things, I think the best solution is to say that Cell was trying to make quick sense of everything, and he seems to have made some faulty assumptions. All the worse for the quality of writing in this arc regardless. Toriyama's trying to tackle a really complicated topic (even for metaphysicians, who are literally professionals at it) with his lackadaisical writing style, and it's a disaster to make sense of. At least the arc's still pretty cool.

[Nejishiki]

In the damning case of Future Trunks having his time machine set for 21 years into the past before Cell replaced him, I remember awhile back TripleRach theorized Future Trunks didn't want to run into himself after shutting down his own Artficial Humans, so he opted to go back earlier to find a solution for the Dragon Balls this time. This isn't supported by any source, but it's an idea I'm fond of as to why it was set that way for Cell.

[Zephyr]

That is a much better reason for going back than "I'm gonna create a new timeline to tell everyone in that new timeline that I beat the bad guys I'm going to warn them about now having to face...because of reasons".

[TobyS]

I hope DB super answers our timeline questions soon, at least "is there a second set of Beerus/Whis.

Looks like Black can travel without a time-machine proving that can be done.

I've always thought the whole 12 universe multiverse gets duplicated except the time-nest, but I want to know for sure.

[Nejishiki]

All 12 universes should have alternate copies together. It would seem odd that Champa and Vados of Universe 6 wouldn't notice anything if it just affected Universe 7.