Do Timelines 3 & 4 exist anymore?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

DBS Spoilers Ahead

As per Daizenshuu:

Timeline 1: Main Timeline
Timeline 2: Trunks' Timeline
Timeline 3: Cell's Timeline
Timeline 4: Unseen Timeline

So, because of Trunks' Time Machine, 3 additional timelines where created. But Super introduces a few new things:

• There are 4 green Time Rings, meaning that in total, 5 different timelines exist.
• Trunks' Time Machine created only one additional timeline instead of three, and the other timelines existed since before that.
• Trunks' Time Machine can travel between timelines without creating new ones.

We also saw that timelines can be replaced with other ones:

Timeline 1a: Original Main Timeline/Black's Timeline
Timeline 1b: New Main Timeline
Timeline 2: Trunks' Timeline
Timeline 3: Cell's Timeline
Timeline 4: Unseen Timeline

In Black's timeline, Future Trunks never returned after the Cell Games, and Zamasu became Goku Black & left to Future Trunks' timeline. His attacks cause Trunks to flee back to the main timeline, but before Zamasu became Black. This erased Black's timeline, and replaced it with a new timeline where Trunks returned, and Zamasu got killed before he could become Black. Or rather, the timeline that Black came from was "altered" instead of having a new timeline.

So, my theory is this (and I'm gonna renumber the timelines):

Timeline 1a: Cell's Timeline
Timeline 1b: Trunks' Timeline
Timeline 2a: Unseen Timeline
Timeline 2b: Original Main Timeline/Black's Timeline
Timeline 2c: New Main Timeline
Timeline 3: Unseen Timeline
Timeline 4: Unseen Timeline
Timeline 5: Unseen Timeline

Trunks (from Timeline 1a) went back to the past and killed Freeza, which created a new timeline (Timeline 2a). He returned to his timeline, and then went back to the other timeline & deactivated the #17 & #18. Then he returned to his future, but as he was about to go back to the past again, Cell killed him and went 1 year back before Trunks' first trip, altering Timeline 2a, making it Timeline 2b. Like before, Trunks comes back & forth from Timeline 1a to the past, but this time he comes to Timeline 2b, and has different experiencies thanks to Cell's appearance. So, when he returns to his world, it gets altered, and becomes Timeline 1b, where instead of getting killed from Cell, he kills Cell. Then years later in Timeline 2b, Zamasu becomes Black and goes to Timeline 1b with his Time Ring, which causes Trunks to go back in time but before Zamasu became Black, altering Timeline 2b into Timeline 2c, where Zamasu gets killed instead of becoming Black.

So basically, like the timeline where Goku & his family get killed by Zamasu/Black doesn't exist anymore, the timeline that Cell killed Trunks & the past timeline that Trunks from Cell's timeline went to, also don't exist anymore, which is why no additional green Time Rings were created. Which also means that Trunks' theory was wrong, and he can alter history with his Time Machine, instead of making new timelines.

I hope this made sense.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I think it's an interesting topic. It's also impossible to answer until we get more insight, if we do, in fact, get more insight.

[Black Hawk]

I was trying to make sense of the timelines and Time Rings, myself, and, ultimately, came to much the same conclusions (though, admittedly, in a much less organized manner than you did; you did a really great job making it easy-to-understand). I really don't see any other way to sensibly explain how it all works other than "Toriyama, Tōei, and Toyotarō didn't pay any mind to it, so it's not supposed to work."

[Cipher]

I was trying to make sense of the timelines and Time Rings, myself, and, ultimately, came to much the same conclusions (though, admittedly, in a much less organized manner than you did; you did a really great job making it easy-to-understand). I really don't see any other way to sensibly explain how it all works other than "Toriyama, Tōei, and Toyotarō didn't pay any mind to it, so it's not supposed to work."

I think you could sufficiently separate the rationale for this arc's overwritten events from the splintered timelines caused by Trunks' time machine, if you want.

Every instance in the series' original run involves someone (Trunks or Cell) using the time machine to alter known history. Trunks knows he's altering the past in which Goku dies (creation of the "unseen" timeline). Cell knows he's, or winds up doing so regardless, altering whatever past Trunks visited (creation of the main series' timeline), which changes Trunks' history and leads to an alternate future when he returns stronger as well ("our" Trunks' future).

Zamasu's plan involves, instead, the Time Rings, and they appear to have some odd interactions with time, as they're only supposed to allow moving forward and back to the starting point. It seems the future they access is somewhat more malleable than time proves when history is altered. If Zamasu were to go to Planet Babari 1,000 years in the future, see its civilization, then come back to the present and destroy it, would a splinter timeline be created? It wouldn't be illogical, but the series doesn't seem to present it that way. Whatever future the Kaioshins access is in some way fluid. Its events literally haven't happened yet.

So when Zamasu jumps forward a year to use the Super Dragon Balls, we're dealing with that kind of fluid, Time-Ring-accessed future. When Trunks returns to the main timeline at the beginning of the arc, he isn't changing a history known to anyone but Black, and Black's history involves that fluid future.

It's a little strange, but if it bothers you, I think there's sufficient room to say that the events that lead to Black's creation can be overwritten without a new timeline being created this arc, and with all four implied by the series original run still existing for consistency with previously established time-travel mechanics.

Trunks' Time Machine can travel between timelines without creating new ones.

Slightly nitpicky, but Super didn't introduce that. Trunks' returning to help fight the androids during the series' original run did.

Now, at least according to the Super anime, which implies the main timeline only wound up with one new green ring as a result of Trunks and Cell's shenanigans, there are a few other timelines unrelated to Trunks out there. I just took that to mean that at some point in the vast history of the multiverse, a few other mortals in at least one of the universes altered history. But who knows if that even came from Toriyama, or if Super just took liberties with the presentation. They don't seem horribly important.

[DBZAOTA482]

But Timeline 3 is the main time line and Black Goku is probably from timeline 4.

[Sailor Haumea]

But Timeline 3 is the main time line and Black Goku is probably from timeline 4.

Already confirmed Timeline 3 is also Goku Black's timeline.

My opinion:

1a. Main Timeline*
1b. Main Timeline*
1c. Main Timeline*
2. Trunks' Timeline
3. Cell's Timeline
4. Unseen Timeline
5. Unknown

*Timeline 1a is the timeline Super is in. Beerus kills Zamasu in this timeline.
*Timeline 1b is the timeline Goku Black is from. This timeline was the original one, but was erased by Beerus killing Zamasu.
*Timeline 1c is the timeline created by Towa and Mira screwing with time in Xenoverse and Online.

My hunch is #5 is GT.

[Alehandrew]

I agree with the OP.

I feel like it has been simplified/forgotten. Especially since Gowasu says ONE new time ring appeared a few years ago. I believe that statement is referencing Future Trunks' timeline (no longer factoring in cell and unseen timeline).

It's particularly confusing because in the Cell arc it seemed as though anytime someone traveled to a different time and did something significant a new timeline was created. In this Zamasu arc it seems as though timelines are more "fluid" and can be re-written as opposed to always creating a new timeline.

Do we also know for sure that the silver ring represents a timeline? The way black is using it it's almost more like a time jump device where as the green ones go to other timelines.

Green ring 1: Main Timeline (which has been recently re-written because of Future Trunks travelling back and Beerus killing Zamasu)
2: Future Trunks
3: Unknown
4: Unknown

I'm really hoping they get explored more in depth. I wouldn't be surprised if one is a world where something significant didn't happen for some reason and it leads to the GT story.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Jeez, I wonder if Timelines 3 and 4 still exist after the end of episode 67.

There seems to be seven timelines now.
So it could be: 1) Main Timeline, 2) Future Timeline, 3) Cell Timeline, 4) Unseen Timeline, 5) Universe 12 Traveler Timeline, 6) Goku Black Timeline, 7) Double Trunks Timeline.

Or, it could be: 1) Main Timeline, 2) Future Timeline, 3) Goku Black Timeline, 4) Double Trunks Timeline, 5) Unknown Timeline, 6) Unknown Timeline, 7) Unknown Timeline.

[Sailor Haumea]

Jeez, I wonder if Timelines 3 and 4 still exist after the end of episode 67.

There seems to be seven timelines now.
So it could be: 1) Main Timeline, 2) Future Timeline, 3) Cell Timeline, 4) Unseen Timeline, 5) Universe 12 Traveler Timeline, 6) Goku Black Timeline, 7) Double Trunks Timeline.

Or, it could be: 1) Main Timeline, 2) Future Timeline, 3) Goku Black Timeline, 4) Double Trunks Timeline, 5) Unknown Timeline, 6) Unknown Timeline, 7) Unknown Timeline.

I would have an unknown be the one where the Trunks Cell claimed killed Frieza and Cold in his timeline came from. This depends on whether Cell was correct about that happening.

[Zephyr]

Timeline 1a: Cell's Timeline
Timeline 1b: Trunks' Timeline
Timeline 2a: Unseen Timeline
Timeline 2b: Original Main Timeline/Black's Timeline
Timeline 2c: New Main Timeline
Timeline 3: Unseen Timeline
Timeline 4: Unseen Timeline
Timeline 5: Unseen Timeline

Trunks (from Timeline 1a) went back to the past and killed Freeza, which created a new timeline (Timeline 2a). He returned to his timeline, and then went back to the other timeline & deactivated the #17 & #18. Then he returned to his future, but as he was about to go back to the past again, Cell killed him and went 1 year back before Trunks' first trip, altering Timeline 2a, making it Timeline 2b. Like before, Trunks comes back & forth from Timeline 1a to the past, but this time he comes to Timeline 2b, and has different experiencies thanks to Cell's appearance. So, when he returns to his world, it gets altered, and becomes Timeline 1b, where instead of getting killed from Cell, he kills Cell. Then years later in Timeline 2b, Zamasu becomes Black and goes to Timeline 1b with his Time Ring, which causes Trunks to go back in time but before Zamasu became Black, altering Timeline 2b into Timeline 2c, where Zamasu gets killed instead of becoming Black.

So basically, like the timeline where Goku & his family get killed by Zamasu/Black doesn't exist anymore, the timeline that Cell killed Trunks & the past timeline that Trunks from Cell's timeline went to, also don't exist anymore, which is why no additional green Time Rings were created. Which also means that Trunks' theory was wrong, and he can alter history with his Time Machine, instead of making new timelines.

I hope this made sense.

Yeah, that's pretty much what makes the most sense to me. Although, you forgot the last, newest timeline created in this week's episode. I think it should look more like this (also I just enjoy imagining that Movie 7 took place in that unseen timeline. ):

Timeline 1A: Cell's Timeline
Timeline 1B: Trunks' Timeline
Timeline 1C: Two of Trunks/Mai Timeline
Timeline 2A: Movie 7 Timeline
Timeline 2B: Original Main Timeline/Black's Timeline
Timeline 2C: New Main Timeline
Timeline 3: Unseen Timeline

I took off Timelines 4 and 5 though, because of one thing that still puzzles me: Whis says that Beerus created a new time ring by killing Zamasu, despite that killing simply altering 2B and turning it into 2C. If that's the case, then overwriting a timeline still counts as creating a new one, and thus those green time rings (sans one of them) that Gowasu shows Zamasu would be the ones from the Cell arc (and I guess Gowasu put that box away some time before Trunks returned home from the Cell Games?). With that in mind, we have 5 rings at the start of the arc, with Gowasu putting the box away with 6 in it at the end. The next scene is Trunks travelling into "the future" again, about to create 1C, a 7th ring.

---

"Timeline 3" would then be the one from which Universe 12's time traveller came, and thus should be "Timeline 1". Meaning things should look more like this:

Timeline 1: Universe 12's Time Traveller's Original Timeline
Timeline 2A: Cell's Timeline
Timeline 2B: Trunks' Timeline
Timeline 2C: Two of Trunks/Mai Timeline
Timeline 3A: Movie 7 Timeline
Timeline 3B: Original Main Timeline/Black's Timeline
Timeline 3C: New Main Timeline

Although that's only if we take what the manga says about that into account.

---

Did I fuck anything up?

[Sailor Haumea]

My interpretation:

Timeline 1: Original timeline
Timeline 2: Cell's timeline
Timeline 3: Unseen timeline
Timeline 4a: Goku Black timeline
Timeline 4b: Main timeline (Beerus kills Zamasu)
Timeline 5: Trunks's timeline (now empty)
Timeline 6: New future timeline

[Cipher]

Trunks (from Timeline 1a) went back to the past and killed Freeza, which created a new timeline (Timeline 2a). He returned to his timeline, and then went back to the other timeline & deactivated the #17 & #18. Then he returned to his future, but as he was about to go back to the past again, Cell killed him and went 1 year back before Trunks' first trip, altering Timeline 2a, making it Timeline 2b. Like before, Trunks comes back & forth from Timeline 1a to the past, but this time he comes to Timeline 2b, and has different experiencies thanks to Cell's appearance. So, when he returns to his world, it gets altered, and becomes Timeline 1b, where instead of getting killed from Cell, he kills Cell. Then years later in Timeline 2b, Zamasu becomes Black and goes to Timeline 1b with his Time Ring, which causes Trunks to go back in time but before Zamasu became Black, altering Timeline 2b into Timeline 2c, where Zamasu gets killed instead of becoming Black.

I hope this made sense.

Now that the arc is done and it's been confirmed Black's origins remain in their own timeline, I think this is one of the cleanest, clearest explanations I've seen for all the timelines created by the events of the main series. It's only missing the final "future" timeline introduced this week, which in your numbering system would be 1c.

1a: Cell's (Cell kills Trunks)
1b: Future Trunks (Trunks kills Cell; destroyed by Zenou)
1c: Two Trunks and two Mais (Black and Zamasu's rampage is pre-empted)
2a: Unseen timeline (Past altered only by Trunks)
2b: Black's timeline (Zamasu becomes Black)
2c: Main Super timeline (Zamasu is killed)

Order of creation: 1a, 2a, 2b, 1b, 2c, 1c

Causes

1a Cause: Original timeline for the events of the series, possibly layered on top of changes introduced by previous time-travelers like the mysterious Universe 12 character alluded to in the manga
2a Cause: Trunks alters history by traveling back to Age 764, going back and forth between this new timeline and his own until he finds a way to defeat the androids
2b Cause: Cell kills Trunks in timeline 1a, Age 788, taking the time machine back to Age 763
1b Cause: Thanks to Trunks' history being altered along with the rest of the past with Cell's trip to Age 763, he's able to kill Cell in Age 788, splintering events from 1a. Black, created in timeline 2b in Age 781, uses the Time Ring to enter this timeline, encountering Trunks a few years later.
2c Cause: Trunks travels back to Age 780 after encountering Black. Beerus kills Zamasu before he can switch bodies with Goku, splintering off from 2b.
1c Cause: Whis warns Beerus about Black and Zamasu's ambitions prior to Beerus' death in timeline 2b, preventing their plans from gaining traction. Trunks and Mai arrive from the near future of timeline 1b and settle in among their counterparts.

[nato25]

The anime never mentions the Universe 12 traveler does it? Perhaps Toyotaro forgot about the 4 timelines and wondered why there were 4 green rings and made that up to fill in the blank?

[Cipher]

The anime never mentions the Universe 12 traveler does it? Perhaps Toyotaro forgot about the 4 timelines and wondered why there were 4 green rings and made that up to fill in the blank?

The anime never mentions it, but both versions are pretty messy with what each ring in the box actually represents. Gowasu says in the anime that only one ring appeared a few years ago, rather than three (Zephyr has a pretty good explanation for why this could refer only to 2b/Trunks' new future, but it's more likely an oversimplification or oversight).

Either way, I think it's easier to just ignore the specific visuals of the box and track what timelines must have been created during the events of the series. There might be one or more time-travelers prior to Trunks in the history of the multiverse, but we don't really know, outside of that manga tidbit.

[DragonBallLove]

All perfect, but the naming. You can argue the naming you aplied ("1C" etc.) makes sense and are aestethically good, and I'll give you that. But we already have an official nomenclature as per Daizenshuu for four of those timelines, however confusing or impractical they could be. So, officially:

Timeline 1: Main
Timeline 2: Mirai
Timeline 3: Cell
Timeline 4: Unseen

Then, we got three new timelines as of now:

Timeline X: Original
Timeline Y: Black
Timeline Z: Double Trunks

We can number them whatever they want in our headcannon. I'd go with this scheme, but that's me and I don't pretend to fit my headcanon into the fanon (once again, why not?)

Timeline 0: Original
Timeline 1: Main
Timeline 2: Mirai
Timeline 3: Cell
Timeline 4: Unseen
Timeline 5: Black
Timeline 6: Double Trunks

Now, as per the superseded timelines theories (that I agree one hundred percent), there would only be two confirmed timelines in existance, T1 Main and T6 Double Trunks. And perhaps T0 Original, because who knows.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

[spoiler]DBS Spoilers Ahead

As per Daizenshuu:

Timeline 1: Main Timeline
Timeline 2: Trunks' Timeline
Timeline 3: Cell's Timeline
Timeline 4: Unseen Timeline

So, because of Trunks' Time Machine, 3 additional timelines where created. But Super introduces a few new things:

• There are 4 green Time Rings, meaning that in total, 5 different timelines exist.
• Trunks' Time Machine created only one additional timeline instead of three, and the other timelines existed since before that.
• Trunks' Time Machine can travel between timelines without creating new ones.

We also saw that timelines can be replaced with other ones:

Timeline 1a: Original Main Timeline/Black's Timeline
Timeline 1b: New Main Timeline
Timeline 2: Trunks' Timeline
Timeline 3: Cell's Timeline
Timeline 4: Unseen Timeline

In Black's timeline, Future Trunks never returned after the Cell Games, and Zamasu became Goku Black & left to Future Trunks' timeline. His attacks cause Trunks to flee back to the main timeline, but before Zamasu became Black. This erased Black's timeline, and replaced it with a new timeline where Trunks returned, and Zamasu got killed before he could become Black. Or rather, the timeline that Black came from was "altered" instead of having a new timeline.

So, my theory is this (and I'm gonna renumber the timelines):

Timeline 1a: Cell's Timeline
Timeline 1b: Trunks' Timeline
Timeline 2a: Unseen Timeline
Timeline 2b: Original Main Timeline/Black's Timeline
Timeline 2c: New Main Timeline
Timeline 3: Unseen Timeline
Timeline 4: Unseen Timeline
Timeline 5: Unseen Timeline

Trunks (from Timeline 1a) went back to the past and killed Freeza, which created a new timeline (Timeline 2a). He returned to his timeline, and then went back to the other timeline & deactivated the #17 & #18. Then he returned to his future, but as he was about to go back to the past again, Cell killed him and went 1 year back before Trunks' first trip, altering Timeline 2a, making it Timeline 2b. Like before, Trunks comes back & forth from Timeline 1a to the past, but this time he comes to Timeline 2b, and has different experiencies thanks to Cell's appearance. So, when he returns to his world, it gets altered, and becomes Timeline 1b, where instead of getting killed from Cell, he kills Cell. Then years later in Timeline 2b, Zamasu becomes Black and goes to Timeline 1b with his Time Ring, which causes Trunks to go back in time but before Zamasu became Black, altering Timeline 2b into Timeline 2c, where Zamasu gets killed instead of becoming Black.

So basically, like the timeline where Goku & his family get killed by Zamasu/Black doesn't exist anymore, the timeline that Cell killed Trunks & the past timeline that Trunks from Cell's timeline went to, also don't exist anymore, which is why no additional green Time Rings were created. Which also means that Trunks' theory was wrong, and he can alter history with his Time Machine, instead of making new timelines.

I hope this made sense. [/spoiler]

All this theory was based on the idea that Black's timeline was erased, but in the latest episode we learned that it wasn't erased, and a new green Time Ring was created for it, so the whole theory about Cell's & the unseen timelines been erased is kinda debunked, which creates a plot-hole.

What we saw in Super was this:

Timeline 1: Unseen Timeline
Timeline 2: Unseen Timeline
Timeline 3: Unseen Timeline
Timeline 4: Main Timeline
Timeline 5: Trunks' Timeline
Timeline 6: Black's Timeline
Timeline 7: Double Trunks' Timeline



However, Trunks' time-machine should have created 3 new green rings, not only 1, so these should have been the timelines:

Timeline 1: Unseen Timeline
Timeline 2: Unseen Timeline
Timeline 3: Unseen Timeline
Timeline 4: Main Timeline
Timeline 5: Cell's Timeline
Timeline 6: Unseen Timeline
Timeline 7: Trunks' Timeline
Timeline 8: Black's Timeline
Timeline 9: Double Trunks Timeline

So, these timelines should exist, but they don't for... some reason.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Prior to Beerus killing Zamasu, there were 5 Time Rings(1 silver and 4 green).

-The first green one came from the Universe 12 traveler.
-The other 3 green Time Rings came from Trunks' and Cells' time travel.
-The silver one represents the main timeline in which it originates.

The 6th Time Ring was created due to Beerus killing Zamasu. Prior to that, the timelines weren't split, so along with direct statement that would mean that Present Zamasu and Goku Black are the same person from the same time stream. Made even more obvious when Beerus killing Zamasu was stated to should have killed Black if he wasn't a wielder of the Time Ring.

Prior to Beerus killing Zamasu, we have this from this perspective of those in the main timeline:
-Timeline 1(Green Time Ring)=Timeline that Universe 12 traveler created
-Timeline 2(Green Time Ring)=Trunks' timeline
-Timeline 3(Green Time Ring)=Cells' timeline
-Timeline 4(Green Time Ring)=Altered main timeline influenced by Trunks but not Cell
-Timeline 5(Silver Time Ring)=Main timeline affected by Cell & Trunks. Is the original timeline where Black comes from and the one we see until Beerus kills Zamasu.

After Beerus killed Zamasu, timeline 5 split and made separate worlds where Zamasu lived and became Black in one and died in the other.

This would be Timeline 6. Timeline 5 is now represented by a green Time Ring and timeline 6 is represented by the silver one.
Of course all of the original timelines still exist. No reason that they wouldn't. Everything adds up just fine.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

-The first green one came from the Universe 12 traveler.
-The other 3 green Time Rings came from Trunks' and Cells' time travel.
-The silver one represents the main timeline in which it originates.

Nope. Before Bulma created the Time Machine, there were 3 green rings. The first one was created by the U12 time traveler, and the other 2 were created by (an) other time traveler(s).

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

-The first green one came from the Universe 12 traveler.
-The other 3 green Time Rings came from Trunks' and Cells' time travel.
-The silver one represents the main timeline in which it originates.

Nope. Before Bulma created the Time Machine, there were 3 green rings. The first one was created by the U12 time traveler, and the other 2 were created by (an) other time traveler(s).

No they weren't. There isn't any mention of anyone else making alternate timelines other than the U12 traveler, Trunks and Cell.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

No they weren't. There isn't any mention of anyone else making alternate timelines other than the U12 traveler, Trunks and Cell.

Gowasu said that last time he checked, there were 3 green rings instead of 4, and that the 4th one was created recently, and he doesn't mention that there was any relation to those 3 rings.