Would you call Akira Toriyama a revolutionary 90s artist?

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Would you call Akira Toriyama a revolutionary 90s artist?

Post by DragonBallFoodie » Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:36 pm

This is a statement about American artist Rob Liefeld, who became overwhelmingly popular in the 1990s:
he nailed the "Mortal Kombat" zeitgeist of early 1990s pop culture aesthetics, didn't he? And his figures, while grotesque, are always dynamic and full of energy. He gives a really visceral sense of the characters' strength, or agility, or attitude, or whatever cool edgy '90s hero trait he's trying to get across in a particular drawing. Even when he draws Juggernaut with stumpy elephant feet, at least it really looks like the heroes should have a hard time knocking him down.
Leifeld's work isn't sophisticated, but it does often have a hot-bloodedness to it that you can't get without having your soul in the work.
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I think I would put Akira Toriyama in a similar category, and I mean that as a compliment. He too nailed the "Mortal Kombat" zeitgeist of early 1990s pop culture aesthetics, didn't he?

He too became incredibly popular in the 1990s with the artwork of DB (in the Z phase) becoming sharper and stylish. His artwork is fairly visceral too, with energy blasts and screams and auras; and though his work retains its cartoonish design it still looks very badass and intense and had influence on many manga.

So yes, I would say he was a revolutionary 90s artist.
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Re: Would you call Akira Toriyama a revolutionary 90s artist?

Post by sintzu » Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:19 pm

He revolutionized the entire anime and manga genre so he's pretty much a Japanese entertainment legend.
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Re: Would you call Akira Toriyama a revolutionary 90s artist?

Post by floofychan333 » Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:46 pm

He's certainly a great artist but I don't think his style really influenced anyone. Dragon Ball's art style has always been way different from most anime.
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Re: Would you call Akira Toriyama a revolutionary 90s artist?

Post by Gog » Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:24 pm

No, his art was never revolutionary, his ideas were instead.

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Re: Would you call Akira Toriyama a revolutionary 90s artist?

Post by SaiyanGod117 » Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:39 pm

His art was revolutionary at the time, people were use to manga art looking like Astro Boy.

I could be mistaken.

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Re: Would you call Akira Toriyama a revolutionary 90s artist?

Post by Cipher » Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:59 pm

Gog wrote:No, his art was never revolutionary, his ideas were instead.
I feel like it's almost the complete opposite?

The bulk of Toriyama's library consists of repurposed and re-used pop-culture elements, iconography, etc. What makes it distinct is his style, both in terms of writing and art, which I don't think can be fully separated from one another (he is, first and foremost, a comic-book artist; not an illustrator or writer).

And yeah -- Dragon Ball is littered with influential visual iconography. I don't know that it warrants lumping him in with any kind of '80s or '90s zeitgeist, and indeed the visuals of Japanese manga even during the series' peak years seemed mostly to move around it, but he absolutely had an eye for the kind of style changes necessary to depict the fast-paced action Dragon Ball eventually moved toward, which, while still rooted in the centuries of martial-arts fantasy it drew from, was styllistically its own, and has been oft-copied since.

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Re: Would you call Akira Toriyama a revolutionary 90s artist?

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:05 pm

Cipher wrote:
Gog wrote:No, his art was never revolutionary, his ideas were instead.
I feel like it's almost the complete opposite?

The bulk of Toriyama's library consists of repurposed and re-used pop-culture elements, iconography, etc. What makes it distinct is his style, both in terms of writing and art, which I don't think can be fully separated from one another (he is, first and foremost, a comic-book artist; not an illustrator or writer).
Toriyama was always great at taking those ideas and assimilating them into his own universe. That's a talent in itself, if you ask me.

The only thing revolutionary about Toriyama was his seemingly contradictory, shortsighted style of writing a continuity-driven series, which not many people would be capable of writing. His art was great, too, but I wouldn't call it great enough to qualify as "revolutionary"
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Re: Would you call Akira Toriyama a revolutionary 90s artist?

Post by Cipher » Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:12 pm

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:Toriyama was always great at taking those ideas and assimilating them into his own universe. That's a talent in itself, if you ask me.
No arguments there. I didn't mean for one second to present that as a negative.
The only thing revolutionary about Toriyama was his seemingly contradictory, shortsighted style of writing a continuity-driven series, which not many people would be capable of writing.
I also view this perceived flaw as a huge positive. It lends the series a lot of its charm, and I don't think Toriyama gets nearly enough credit for what it says about his natural abilities as a long-form storyteller.
His art was great, too, but I wouldn't call it great enough to qualify as "revolutionary"
I think it's be safe to call it majorly influential at the very least. Think about how recognizable and oft-homaged the distinct Dragon Ball style of action is. I think his simplistic visuals, use of a young protagonist, and structuring a fighting drama around increasing power and scale of opponents was also more of an influence on the shonen scene than you'd think at first glance -- even if that influence was felt far more near or after the end of its run than during. But look at the difference between a series like Hokuto no Ken, with its dramatic visuals and unshakeable power-fantasy of a protagonist, and what set the tone in JUMP and other magazines by the end of the '90s. And in between, there's Dragon Ball.

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Re: Would you call Akira Toriyama a revolutionary 90s artist?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:44 pm

Not really. It was distinct but it's the story that was truly revolutionary. I mean, it redefined an entire genre and era.
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Re: Would you call Akira Toriyama a revolutionary 90s artist?

Post by Rukawa11 » Sun Jan 08, 2017 1:35 pm

Without a shadow of a doubt. Toriyama laid the groundwork for what a successful Shounen anime should be like. To me, this becomes clear when I look at Dragonball's contemporaries within the Shounen/ Fighting genre. The two biggest (and possibly the only) series I can think of are Fist of the North Star (which predates DB by a year as a Manga) and Saint Seiya (first chapter released in early 1986, followed by an Anime adaptation in October that same year). There's no question that both Fist and Seiya have a place in history, but both series suffered the tragic flaw of taking themselves way too seriously, of having incredibly stiff fight scenes that focus solely on getting the characters all battered and beaten to a pulp (and never on those characters enjoying the fight), and of having an all-serious cast without a tiny hint of a quirk or anything funny at all. It's amazing how, beyond the fact that those two series fall under the same Action/ Super Powers genre of DB/Z, they have almost nothing else in common with it.

Everything I'm going to list below about DB/Z is something that Seiya and Fist terribly lacked (whereas Bleach, Naruto, One Piece, Fairy Tail, Yuyu Hakusho and many other subsequent series had followed like it was the Bible). It should show you how revolutionary Toriyama was:
- Unlike Seiya and Kenshiro, Goku doesn't start out as some powerhouse who carves out one victory after another without any sort of training. In fact, DB/Z's formula of including having to train or learn a new technique each time a powerful threat emerges is what almost every Shounen anime contains now.
- Goku doesn't take himself too seriously and doesn't spout stuff like "I'm the savior of this world" or "I fight for justice" every five minutes. I don't think Goku's ever uttered the word "Justice." Instead, Goku manages to retain a smile and enjoy a fight even against a villain who'd killed his friend ten minutes ago. Goku would even praise that villain and tell him how much he's enjoying the fight. You won't believe how such a tiny trait had added an astronomical level of freshness to the heroes of this genre, because Seiya or Kenshiro would simply wear the most hateful expression ever and seek to kill their opponent as soon as possible, which is to say, they'd react in a more realistic/ typical way expected of someone who'd lost his friends at the hands of his opponent. Toriyama didn't take this typical approach.
- Leaving the quirky heroes aside, DB actually treated us to quirky villains. Blue missed his chance to kill Goku because he freaked out when he saw a mouse. Tao Pai Pai postponed his assassination for a change of clothes. The Ginyu Force would actually tell each other stuff like "Ah man, our cleaning bill is gonna skyrocket cause of this dust" or "You'll treat us to a chocolate parfait in exchange for taking this long to kill Vegeta" amidst a fight (this reminds me of this humor within the Akatsuki members or the countless goofy villains of One Piece). Once again, Dragonball's contemporaries didn't contain any of this stuff. We're simply treated to countless villains who all act the way villains should act: cold-blooded and dead serious.
- Goku having to find a "pichi pichi" girl to train under Roshi and invent puns that would make Kaio-sama/ King Kai laugh to learn the Kaio-ken sort of became a staple for newer Shounen Animes (the one example that comes to mind right now is Naruto having to impress Killer Bee with a few rap verses so he could teach him to contol his Biju).
- Finally, the action in DB/Z presented a level of swiftness that Seiya and Fist could never come near (rendering their fight scenes incredibly stale and stiff by comparison). Saint Seiya was 90% about the opponents standing in their places, exchanging blows from long range, and getting their bodies and heads cracked open and somehow managing to stand up (only to repeat the same scenario once more, only with more blood-stained faces and shattered armors). Fist, on the other hand, was martial arts based, but it hardly contained any fights where the opponents were evenly matched. And as such, all we get to see is one character beating the other to a pulp with mostly close range combat. Compare this to Dragonball (even before Z came along), where the action could suddenly take to the sky, or the whole landscape would change cause of a powerful ki blast, or the fight itself could become close-range, long-range, and return to close-range in a matter of seconds. Dragonball pushed the boundaries of what a fight is. Even a Samurai series like Rurouni Kenshin was evidently influenced by it in the switfness department (for those who've watched it, where else could the author had come up with the Kenshin vs. Sojiro fight?)
No matter how you look at it, it's not Fist or Seiya's formula that Naruto, Bleach, OP, Yuyu and the others have followed, it's Dragonball's. The whole purpose of this somewhat lengthy response is to point out that, among the first "Big-Three" of Shounen Fighting Mangas (Fist, DB, Saint Seiya), it was DB whose formula had prevailed.

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Re: Would you call Akira Toriyama a revolutionary 90s artist?

Post by keyz05 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:14 am

I'd say a revolutionary 90s writer. His ideas were fantastic, without a doubt?

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Re: Would you call Akira Toriyama a revolutionary 90s artist?

Post by Ki Breaker » Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:32 am

Many by contributed towards what we have today, toriyama was certainly a big part of it though, a legend you might say
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Re: Would you call Akira Toriyama a revolutionary 90s artist?

Post by Soppa Saia People » Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:23 am

The bulk of Toriyama's career took place in the 80s, no ? I would call him a 80s legend.
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Re: Would you call Akira Toriyama a revolutionary 90s artist?

Post by Draconic » Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:46 am

I don't know enough about the manga/anime landscape in the 80s and 90s when Toriyama was active, but I know putting him anywhere in the same category as Rob Liefeld is such an insult to the man.
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Re: Would you call Akira Toriyama a revolutionary 90s artist?

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:21 am

Soppa Saia People wrote:The bulk of Toriyama's career took place in the 80s, no ? I would call him a 80s legend.
Dr. Slump was famous, but it could never have been remembered in the same way Dragon Ball has been. About half of Dragon Ball took place in the 90's, so it's really your own pick.
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Re: Would you call Akira Toriyama a revolutionary 90s artist?

Post by Soppa Saia People » Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:50 am

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
Soppa Saia People wrote:The bulk of Toriyama's career took place in the 80s, no ? I would call him a 80s legend.
Dr. Slump was famous, but it could never have been remembered in the same way Dragon Ball has been. About half of Dragon Ball took place in the 90's, so it's really your own pick.
80s then, because Dr. Slump > Dragon Ball.
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Re: Would you call Akira Toriyama a revolutionary 90s artist?

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:05 pm

Absolutely. Hell, Yuu Yuu Hakusho borrowed a few elements from Dragon Ball at the time of its publication.

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Re: Would you call Akira Toriyama a revolutionary 90s artist?

Post by Gog » Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:57 am

Soppa Saia People wrote:
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
Soppa Saia People wrote:The bulk of Toriyama's career took place in the 80s, no ? I would call him a 80s legend.
Dr. Slump was famous, but it could never have been remembered in the same way Dragon Ball has been. About half of Dragon Ball took place in the 90's, so it's really your own pick.
80s then, because Dr. Slump > Dragon Ball.
You've got that wrong mate 8)

Dragon ball > Dr Slump.

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Re: Would you call Akira Toriyama a revolutionary 90s artist?

Post by Soppa Saia People » Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:28 pm

Gog wrote:
Soppa Saia People wrote:
Jinzoningen MULE wrote: Dr. Slump was famous, but it could never have been remembered in the same way Dragon Ball has been. About half of Dragon Ball took place in the 90's, so it's really your own pick.
80s then, because Dr. Slump > Dragon Ball.
You've got that wrong mate 8)

Dragon ball > Dr Slump.
I'm sorry, but no. Dr. Slump is Toriyama at his peak.
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Re: Would you call Akira Toriyama a revolutionary 90s artist?

Post by Saikyo no Senshi » Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:53 pm

Agreed. Dr. Slump is Toriyama's silliness at full-on display and silly Toriyama is best Toriyama.

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