So apparently even Toei supports the "goku iz bad family man" meme

[DBZAOTA482]

It's especially strange because Toei is known to have a hard-on for Goku but now it seems now they're a stan for Vegeta and his family. Fuck the Son Family. That's the mentality of these writers.

I've suspected it since Episode 15 (and predicted it from the beginning) but never before has it been so obvious till the most recent episode. While Vegeta stayed to support Bulma during pregnancy Goku acts an insensitive fuck saying he shouldn't care because he's not the pregnant one... ignoring the fact Bulma is almost 50 and pregnancy at that age can be really dangerous. I'm like... come the fuck on, aren't you two close friends?

But it gets even worse... they also imply Goku has never seen Chi-Chi pregnant which is understandable in Goten's case because he didn't even know he existed till the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai but for Gohan unless he went away for 9 months for whatever reason there's no fucking way. He also casually brings up the fact he was dead when Goten was born.

[mute_proxy]

It's ok not to post the same thing on all the main DB related forums.

[Gog]

Perhaps you should go and replace Toei, with Toriyama , because he's the one writing this. This is no longer a case of Toriyama killing Goku's character but more of a case of him revealing Goku and ChiChi's relationship, and unfortunately you just don't seem to be liking what he's revealing to us. Also why should Goku stay behind to watch pregnant Bulma? There's nothing their for him, there's nothing in it for him, and she's being watched by Vegeta. That's just Goku.

Aren't you aware that death is meaningless in Dragon Ball? And for all we know he did leave ChiChi for nine months, he's Goku. That wouldn't actually be out of character for him to do that.

[TheGreatness25]

Well it shows his mentality of how he would handle the situation had it been his wife, in which case, that's the bad part. I find Goku's "revealed" traits to be rather unlikeable.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Vegeta's reasoning for staying behind wasn't great at all, he only did it because if he didn't Bulma would never forgive him. He wasn't staying behind because it is his obligation as a husband but 'cuz is wife if gonna be pissed.

Anyway, Goku has been a great family man in Super the recent episode he was seen trading vegetable in for cash, we constantly see him with his family, recent Hit episode he is chilling having a meal meanwhile Vegeta is off training with Whis. He farms for his family even though he doesn't have too at all, Chichi can't really stop him teleporting away now can she but he still stays and does his job. "Goku is a bad family man" and "Vegeta is a good family man" are statements that are severely blown out of proportion.

[DBZAOTA482]

Perhaps you should go and replace Toei, with Toriyama , because he's the one writing this. This is no longer a case of Toriyama killing Goku's character but more of a case of him revealing Goku and ChiChi's relationship, and unfortunately you just don't seem to be liking what he's revealing to us. Also why should Goku stay behind to watch pregnant Bulma? There's nothing their for him, there's nothing in it for him, and she's being watched by Vegeta. That's just Goku.

Aren't you aware that death is meaningless in Dragon Ball? And for all we know he did leave ChiChi for nine months, he's Goku. That wouldn't actually be out of character for him to do that.

So you're saying Goku was always supposed to be an unlikeable douchebag?

[Doctor.]

ignoring the fact Bulma is almost 50 and pregnancy at that age can be really dangerous.

Yeah, I'm entirely sure that Goku knows about this. He's a specialist and all.

So you're saying Goku was always supposed to be an unlikeable douchebag?

In regards to his personal relationships, yeah, pretty much. He's an alien.

[Gog]

Perhaps you should go and replace Toei, with Toriyama , because he's the one writing this. This is no longer a case of Toriyama killing Goku's character but more of a case of him revealing Goku and ChiChi's relationship, and unfortunately you just don't seem to be liking what he's revealing to us. Also why should Goku stay behind to watch pregnant Bulma? There's nothing their for him, there's nothing in it for him, and she's being watched by Vegeta. That's just Goku.

Aren't you aware that death is meaningless in Dragon Ball? And for all we know he did leave ChiChi for nine months, he's Goku. That wouldn't actually be out of character for him to do that.

So you're saying Goku was always supposed to be an unlikeable douchebag?

Well he was never meant to be unlikable, and he's not a douche, his Morales are just alien to us.

[Cipher]

The writers are obviously just Marvel fanboys.

[MozillaVulpix]

I mean, even I agree it feels like they go a bit too far in trying to contrast Goku and Vegeta's attitudes, and making it look like Vegeta has the better one. It's no question that Vegeta understands familial values and what's socially acceptable more than Goku. Vegeta's always known what was the right thing to do. He just didn't care until this point of the story. Whereas Goku has never fully understood what society traditionally expects of him, and everyone realises that's fine because a civilised Goku is just not Goku. He wouldn't be able to do what he does if he was fully civilised.

Basically, I can get behind "Goku is a terribly flawed person and not the best family man around". It's when it starts getting into "but Vegeta>Goku in every way" that I start to feel it's going a little too far.

[ekrolo2]

ignoring the fact Bulma is almost 50 and pregnancy at that age can be really dangerous.

Yeah, I'm entirely sure that Goku knows about this. He's a specialist and all.

So you're saying Goku was always supposed to be an unlikeable douchebag?

In regards to his personal relationships, yeah, pretty much. He's an alien.

How do you even read or watch the Z portion and not come to the inclusion that Goku's at least partially kind of a douchebag?

[Doctor.]

How do you even read or watch the Z portion and not come to the inclusion that Goku's at least partially kind of a douchebag?

I suspect it stems from wanting your children's show protagonist to be a righteous and perfect hero. Even if Toriyama portrayed Goku as a good person (which he is, at heart, at least he has good intentions most of the time), he never, ever portrayed him as a flawless or socially acceptable human being.

[DBZAOTA482]

Perhaps you should go and replace Toei, with Toriyama , because he's the one writing this. This is no longer a case of Toriyama killing Goku's character but more of a case of him revealing Goku and ChiChi's relationship, and unfortunately you just don't seem to be liking what he's revealing to us. Also why should Goku stay behind to watch pregnant Bulma? There's nothing their for him, there's nothing in it for him, and she's being watched by Vegeta. That's just Goku.

Aren't you aware that death is meaningless in Dragon Ball? And for all we know he did leave ChiChi for nine months, he's Goku. That wouldn't actually be out of character for him to do that.

So you're saying Goku was always supposed to be an unlikeable douchebag?

Well he was never meant to be unlikable, and he's not a douche, his Morales are just alien to us.

You can say that but I wouldn't mind it so much if it was actually used to improve the story and characters instead of for a cheap laugh.

[ekrolo2]

I suspect it stems from wanting your children's show protagonist to be a righteous and perfect hero. Even if Toriyama portrayed Goku as a good person (which he is, at heart, at least he has good intentions most of the time), he never, ever portrayed him as a flawless or socially acceptable human being.

I guess I can get that, but after reading stuff like Watchmen that pretty much prove stuff like superheroes are shit, I'm kind of used to realizing whatever heroes I've got are far from righteous, perfect or even sensible.

You can say that but I wouldn't mind it so much if it was actually used to improve story and character instead of for a cheap laugh.

That's kind of the issue with writing post-Cell Goku. In that ending. Goku openly admits he attracts trouble and is a problem for the Earth because of the way he thinks and acts, once you have him admit it and have him keep doing the same mistakes instead of figuring out new ways for threats to appear and advance their plots, it makes for a stagnant protagonist who gradually becomes more irritating.

[Doctor.]

That's kind of the issue with writing post-Cell Goku. In that ending. Goku openly admits he attracts trouble and is a problem for the Earth because of the way he thinks and acts, once you have him admit it and have him keep doing the same mistakes instead of figuring out new ways for threats to appear and advance their plots, it makes for a stagnant protagonist who gradually becomes more irritating.

To be fair, a lot of Dragon Ball's character development (especially with Vegeta, and especially in modern Dragon Ball) is based around repetition (as well as most of the plot development, but that's another issue). Characters just repeat the same mistakes over and over again and we think they get over it, but then they just repeat them once again.

[ekrolo2]

That's kind of the issue with writing post-Cell Goku. In that ending. Goku openly admits he attracts trouble and is a problem for the Earth because of the way he thinks and acts, once you have him admit it and have him keep doing the same mistakes instead of figuring out new ways for threats to appear and advance their plots, it makes for a stagnant protagonist who gradually becomes more irritating.

To be fair, a lot of Dragon Ball's character development (especially with Vegeta, and especially in modern Dragon Ball) is based around repetition (as well as most of the plot development, but that's another issue). Characters just repeat the same mistakes over and over again and we think they get over it, but then they just repeat them once again.

But does it count as development if they just retcon it away to repeat it afterward?

[Doctor.]

But does it count as development if they just retcon it away to repeat it afterward?

I think it depends on the context. For instance, Vegeta constantly making the same mistakes makes sense because he either gets something new to prove or something in his life changes to justify him making those mistakes again. I think Goku being a reckless fuck post-Cell also works because he's gotten cocky with all the God power (at least, if they're purposefully writing him this way to develop him in this arc, which is what seems to be implied; if it doesn't happen, then Toriyama should just retire already). Someone like Gohan making the same mistake over and over again (not training) I feel is just character regression, because there's literally no justification for it. He learns the same lesson every time and every time he keeps forgetting it.

But I think the cycle for Dragon Ball characters, due to the length of the series, is development -> slight regression -> development. They instill flaws that were already fixed or weren't present to begin with just to give something interesting to the characters and not leave them stagnant. In a way, it's two steps forward, one step back (for a majority of them, at least), but it's still irritating that certain traits that should have been gone a long time ago are now resurfacing for the sake of making the characters relevant.

[Kanassa]

That's kind of the issue with writing post-Cell Goku. In that ending. Goku openly admits he attracts trouble and is a problem for the Earth because of the way he thinks and acts, once you have him admit it and have him keep doing the same mistakes instead of figuring out new ways for threats to appear and advance their plots, it makes for a stagnant protagonist who gradually becomes more irritating.

To be fair, a lot of Dragon Ball's character development (especially with Vegeta, and especially in modern Dragon Ball) is based around repetition (as well as most of the plot development, but that's another issue). Characters just repeat the same mistakes over and over again and we think they get over it, but then they just repeat them once again.

But does it count as development if they just retcon it away to repeat it afterward?

It's Dragonball Development, meaning it's slow and mostly happens off screen. Vegeta is the biggest example, we never see him develop, we just watch a slideshow of his stages after development.

[ekrolo2]

I think it depends on the context. For instance, Vegeta constantly making the same mistakes makes sense because he either gets something new to prove or something in his life changes to justify him making those mistakes again. I think Goku being a reckless fuck post-Cell also works because he's gotten cocky with all the God power (at least, if they're purposefully writing him this way to develop him in this arc, which is what seems to be implied; if it doesn't happen, then Toriyama should just retire already). Someone like Gohan making the same mistake over and over again (not training) I feel is just character regression, because there's literally no justification for it. He learns the same lesson every time and every time he keeps forgetting it.

But I think the cycle for Dragon Ball characters, due to the length of the series, is development -> slight regression -> development. They instill flaws that were already fixed or weren't present to begin with just to give something interesting to the characters and not leave them stagnant. In a way, it's two steps forward, one step back (for a majority of them, at least), but it's still irritating that certain traits that should have been gone a long time ago are now resurfacing for the sake of making the characters relevant.

You make some good points about Gohan and Vegeta but I'm still not sure about Goku. The F arc seemed to want to do what the movie intended and have Goku not mess around when the situation calls for it, that was kind of the point of Whis rewinding time and Goku just flat out killing Freeza the second he could.

I think the reason why Goku seems to be deadlocked is that if you lessen his wild desire for a good time, you've essentially got nothing left for him. For example, you take away Vegeta's bitchiness about being inferior to Goku and you can keep him largely the same, he'd still train and still make mistakes because he's out to prove himself. Once you have Goku learn the lesson of not messing around, what's left for him? It's probably a consequence of having a protagonist with such a simple goal/desire in life.

[omaro34]

I've come to the conclusion that Goku's traits are pretty much foreign to us, hence why we find his behavior rather strange at times.

But no one can really deny how selfish he is. I've said this before yesterday on another thread. Him hiring Hit on himself and making his family worry about his safety and nearly get killed in the process is pretty damn selfish.

Goku can be overconfident in his abilities, and his constant nonchalant attitude to anyone or anything could be leading to a place we never been before as Dragonball fans. I mean we can already see the tension between Beerus and Goku from the last episode, and the tense music they played in the background when Beerus threatened to kill Goku wasn't placed there by accident.

If he wasn't the main character in the series, his naivety and the fact that he's so gullible coupled with his overconfidence, would lead to his downfall.