Super's Emphasis on Strategy & Tactics In Combat Remind You of the Original Dragonball?

[omaro34]

Dragonball Super's shift towards strategy has raised an eyebrow for me during Super's duration thus far. Recently we have seen Krillin use strategy when he beat Gohan in a friendly match and when sparring Goku. Piccolo's reputation of a tactician when he battled Frost will come in handy during this upcoming tournament. Krillin's new Solar Flare is perfect under these rules as well. More importantly, Super's focus on this has become even more apparent with Goku's appreciation for what somebody like the Krillin's of the world have to offer when Goku admitted he learned a valuable lesson during his sparring match with Krillin; and had he gone in the tournament without knowing this he would be in big trouble.

I believe these rules that this "Tournament of Power" has is a great way to get other characters relevant in combat again without significantly raising their power through some sort of power up. However, I can't help but think of the original Dragonball and how strategy was used during the fights in that series as well. Dragonball Z in my opinion was more on strength and whoever had the higher battle power won those fights for the most part. Here are a few examples from the original Dragonball and Super:

1) Tien Vs Goku



Tenshinhan was an underrated fighter with many different abilities. His fight with Goku in both tournaments from when Goku was young and when he was a teenager both relied heavily on strategy. I bet most people forgot Tien can grow extra arms!

2) Piccolo vs Frost

This fight heavily revolved around strategy, and not much needs to be said here.

3) Goku Vs Piccolo

Goku's training at the lookout, and the many things Popo taught him helped him beat his strongest rival yet. Its one of the best fights in the entire Dragonball series.

4) Goku Vs Botamo

This was all strategy where Goku used his brain instead of brawn and quickly figured out Botamo's weakness.

I used to say I missed the days when martial arts to Goku were actually a challenge and not that the guy who fired the biggest Ki Blast won, but now it seems that those days are coming back. I think most of Z's battles not being tournament based plays a role in how strategy was not used as much. Do you guys agree? How are the fights in Super similar or different to the ones in Z? What do you guys think overall on this?

[Cipher]

So, here's the thing.

I wish it did! It'd be nice! Certainly a step above the power-based one-upsmanship that comes to characterize the later half of the manga (not that it's something that actively drags those stories down).

The thing is, there was always a sense of spectacle and progress to the technique-based one-upsmanship in the old series. Characters busted out new tricks as milestones. There were moments made of fighters at the Tenkaichi Budokai outsmarting one another in unexpected ways. There were all of Tenshinhan's weird techniques, and his ability to mimic others'. Kuririn's match against Piccolo showed both his new abilities and his cleverness in distracting his more powerful opponent. Goku's climactic win against Piccolo came down to surprise bukujutsu. All of this was baked into the narrative of the arcs; these were major developments played to the audience with as much awe and gravity as any later transformations or super attacks.

So far in Super, the anime, all we've had is lipservice, and that's partly down to the fact that the only episodes to emphasize this element so far have been -- and I'm ready for what will ensue in responses when I throw this word around -- filler. They've been part of padding, of inconsequential, likely Toei-original, moments of the series. There's only so much the writers can do with them, then, and it all comes off a bit half-hearted. Characters talk about strategy making a difference, but we aren't shown any watershed moments that illustrate it. Characters aren't growing their techniques. All of a sudden, Kuririn can ring-out Gohan, or Gohan can echo-locate with his ki, or Piccolo can maybe have a shot if he spends an episode charging the Makenkosappo, but those aren't symbolic of growth in a way that says they'll be hallmarks of the character's narratives. It all has an atmosphere, and this is entirely down to execution, of "Oh, this week Kuririn can do that. This week Gohan can do that." They're telling us strategy will come into play in the tournament, but it's going to have to show up in some big ways to feel like the series is moving sincerely away from the strength-based combat that's existed since the later half of the manga, and largely through the beginning of Super itself. The Trunks arc certainly didn't do anything to reset those expectations, as the name of the game there, Mafuba aside, remained raw power. Show me a big win in the upcoming tournament that relies on strategy over strength, and that doesn't feel like part of an episodic character spotlight, and I'll begin to come around.

The manga might be doing a little better on that front, with some tricky technique/transformation manipulation coming into play in the climax of the Future Trunks arc, and Zamasu managing to be a threat through his Kaioshin-styled combat powers. The basics of the fights against Hit in both versions also feel like the tournaments of old. In all, it's a direction I'd like the series to move in, but I haven't yet seen it done in a way that feels sincere or in line with the way Toriyama revealed non-power-based growth in the past.

[OLKv3]

Reminds me less of OG DB and more like filler fights of DBZ. Most of the DBS fights remind me of things like Goku vs Pikhan

[TheMathemagician]

Dragonball Super's shift towards strategy has raised an eyebrow for me during Super's duration thus far. Recently we have seen Krillin use strategy when he beat Gohan in a friendly match and when sparring Goku. Piccolo's reputation of a tactician when he battled Frost will come in handy during this upcoming tournament. Krillin's new Solar Flare is perfect under these rules as well. More importantly, Super's focus on this has become even more apparent with Goku's appreciation for what somebody like the Krillin's of the world have to offer when Goku admitted he learned a valuable lesson during his sparring match with Krillin; and had he gone in the tournament without knowing this he would be in big trouble.

I believe these rules that this "Tournament of Power" has is a great way to get other characters relevant in combat again without significantly raising their power through some sort of power up. However, I can't help but think of the original Dragonball and how strategy was used during the fights in that series as well. Dragonball Z in my opinion was more on strength and whoever had the higher battle power won those fights for the most part. Here are a few examples from the original Dragonball and Super:

1) Tien Vs Goku



Tenshinhan was an underrated fighter with many different abilities. His fight with Goku in both tournaments from when Goku was young and when he was a teenager both relied heavily on strategy. I bet most people forgot Tien can grow extra arms!

2) Piccolo vs Frost

This fight heavily revolved around strategy, and not much needs to be said here.

3) Goku Vs Piccolo

Goku's training at the lookout, and the many things Popo taught him helped him beat his strongest rival yet. Its one of the best fights in the entire Dragonball series.

4) Goku Vs Botamo

This was all strategy where Goku used his brain instead of brawn and quickly figured out Botamo's weakness.

I used to say I missed the days when martial arts to Goku were actually a challenge and not that the guy who fired the biggest Ki Blast won, but now it seems that those days are coming back. I think most of Z's battles not being tournament based plays a role in how strategy was not used as much. Do you guys agree? How are the fights in Super similar or different to the ones in Z? What do you guys think overall on this?

Toei could do a better job bringing it back imo, but I really do like the effort. Also, yes even if it isn't well-liked, Goku vs. Botamo did have Goku win by using his head. Goku's fights with Hit also had him using tactics at times to combat him. Hopefully this saga delivers on full account.

Though as for the Goku vs. Tenshinhan fights, I remember some smart tactical moves (i.e. Tenshinhan blowing up the arena, Goku going out of his way to defeat Ten by exploiting his two weaknesses), but I don't think there was all that much strategy involved in either of those fights.

So, here's the thing.

I wish it did! It'd be nice! Certainly a step above the power-based one-upsmanship that comes to characterize the later half of the manga (not that it's something that actively drags those stories down).

The thing is, there was always a sense of spectacle and progress to the technique-based one-upsmanship in the old series. Characters busted out new tricks as milestones. There were moments made of fighters at the Tenkaichi Budokai outsmarting one another in unexpected ways. There were all of Tenshinhan's weird techniques, and his ability to mimic others'. Kuririn's match against Piccolo showed both his new abilities and his cleverness in distracting his more powerful opponent. Goku's climactic win against Piccolo came down to surprise bukujutsu. All of this was baked into the narrative of the arcs; these were major developments played to the audience with as much awe and gravity as any later transformations or super attacks.

So far in Super, the anime, all we've had is lipservice, and that's partly down to the fact that the only episodes to emphasize this element so far have been -- and I'm ready for what will ensue in responses when I throw this word around -- filler. They've been part of padding, of inconsequential, likely Toei-original, moments of the series. There's only so much the writers can do with them, then, and it all comes off a bit half-hearted. Characters talk about strategy making a difference, but we aren't shown any watershed moments that illustrate it. Characters aren't growing their techniques. All of a sudden, Kuririn can ring-out Gohan, or Gohan can echo-locate with his ki, or Piccolo can maybe have a shot if he spends an episode charging the Makenkosappo, but those aren't symbolic of growth in a way that says they'll be hallmarks of the character's narratives. It all has an atmosphere, and this is entirely down to execution, of "Oh, this week Kuririn can do that. This week Gohan can do that." They're telling us strategy will come into play in the tournament, but it's going to have to show up in some big ways to feel like the series is moving sincerely away from the strength-based combat that's existed since the later half of the manga, and largely through the beginning of Super itself. The Trunks arc certainly didn't do anything to reset those expectations, as the name of the game there, Mafuba aside, remained raw power. Show me a big win in the upcoming tournament that relies on strategy over strength, and that doesn't feel like part of an episodic character spotlight, and I'll begin to come around.

The manga might be doing a little better on that front, with some tricky technique/transformation manipulation coming into play in the climax of the Future Trunks arc, and Zamasu managing to be a threat through his Kaioshin-styled combat powers. The basics of the fights against Hit in both versions also feel like the tournaments of old. In all, it's a direction I'd like the series to move in, but I haven't yet seen it done in a way that feels sincere or in line with the way Toriyama revealed non-power-based growth in the past.

Gotta agree with this. Though I thought Kuririn cutting the floor below Goku felt clever and genuine enough.

[emperior]

So, here's the thing.

I wish it did! It'd be nice! Certainly a step above the power-based one-upsmanship that comes to characterize the later half of the manga (not that it's something that actively drags those stories down).

The thing is, there was always a sense of spectacle and progress to the technique-based one-upsmanship in the old series. Characters busted out new tricks as milestones. There were moments made of fighters at the Tenkaichi Budokai outsmarting one another in unexpected ways. There were all of Tenshinhan's weird techniques, and his ability to mimic others'. Kuririn's match against Piccolo showed both his new abilities and his cleverness in distracting his more powerful opponent. Goku's climactic win against Piccolo came down to surprise bukujutsu. All of this was baked into the narrative of the arcs; these were major developments played to the audience with as much awe and gravity as any later transformations or super attacks.

So far in Super, the anime, all we've had is lipservice, and that's partly down to the fact that the only episodes to emphasize this element so far have been -- and I'm ready for what will ensue in responses when I throw this word around -- filler. They've been part of padding, of inconsequential, likely Toei-original, moments of the series. There's only so much the writers can do with them, then, and it all comes off a bit half-hearted. Characters talk about strategy making a difference, but we aren't shown any watershed moments that illustrate it. Characters aren't growing their techniques. All of a sudden, Kuririn can ring-out Gohan, or Gohan can echo-locate with his ki, or Piccolo can maybe have a shot if he spends an episode charging the Makenkosappo, but those aren't symbolic of growth in a way that says they'll be hallmarks of the character's narratives. It all has an atmosphere, and this is entirely down to execution, of "Oh, this week Kuririn can do that. This week Gohan can do that." They're telling us strategy will come into play in the tournament, but it's going to have to show up in some big ways to feel like the series is moving sincerely away from the strength-based combat that's existed since the later half of the manga, and largely through the beginning of Super itself. The Trunks arc certainly didn't do anything to reset those expectations, as the name of the game there, Mafuba aside, remained raw power. Show me a big win in the upcoming tournament that relies on strategy over strength, and that doesn't feel like part of an episodic character spotlight, and I'll begin to come around.

The manga might be doing a little better on that front, with some tricky technique/transformation manipulation coming into play in the climax of the Future Trunks arc, and Zamasu managing to be a threat through his Kaioshin-styled combat powers. The basics of the fights against Hit in both versions also feel like the tournaments of old. In all, it's a direction I'd like the series to move in, but I haven't yet seen it done in a way that feels sincere or in line with the way Toriyama revealed non-power-based growth in the past.

Great post, but I might add that in the Future Trunks arc tactics and skills also played a part in the anime. Remember how Black was basically untouchable because of Zamasu shielding him with his immortality? Or how Black caught Vegeta by surprise by pulling off his ki blade to stab him? He also used the blade to impale first Goku and later Trunks too by going through Zamasu's body, which was something unexpected. Sure the arc was still heavily based on "whoever has more power wins" with the costant power-ups of the characters and ultimately the fusions, though I feel like it was a step in the right direction.

[namekiansaiyan]

Piccolo is the master tactician and strategist so let's see how far he goes along with Krillin, Tien and Roshi.

Vegeta, Gohan, 17 and 18 are th opposite and will depend on power.

Buu is a mix.

There is no point including Goku as he is the main character so will do good anyway.

We will need to analyse who they all beat and how they brat them after the tournament finishes.

[Rhuagh]

The show not at all. The style of the fights is so different. The manga however does remind me of it a little bit.

Reminds me less of OG DB and more like filler fights of DBZ. Most of the DBS fights remind me of things like Goku vs Pikhan

This.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

So, here's the thing.

I wish it did! It'd be nice! Certainly a step above the power-based one-upsmanship that comes to characterize the later half of the manga (not that it's something that actively drags those stories down).

The thing is, there was always a sense of spectacle and progress to the technique-based one-upsmanship in the old series. Characters busted out new tricks as milestones. There were moments made of fighters at the Tenkaichi Budokai outsmarting one another in unexpected ways. There were all of Tenshinhan's weird techniques, and his ability to mimic others'. Kuririn's match against Piccolo showed both his new abilities and his cleverness in distracting his more powerful opponent. Goku's climactic win against Piccolo came down to surprise bukujutsu. All of this was baked into the narrative of the arcs; these were major developments played to the audience with as much awe and gravity as any later transformations or super attacks.

So far in Super, the anime, all we've had is lipservice, and that's partly down to the fact that the only episodes to emphasize this element so far have been -- and I'm ready for what will ensue in responses when I throw this word around -- filler. They've been part of padding, of inconsequential, likely Toei-original, moments of the series. There's only so much the writers can do with them, then, and it all comes off a bit half-hearted. Characters talk about strategy making a difference, but we aren't shown any watershed moments that illustrate it. Characters aren't growing their techniques. All of a sudden, Kuririn can ring-out Gohan, or Gohan can echo-locate with his ki, or Piccolo can maybe have a shot if he spends an episode charging the Makenkosappo, but those aren't symbolic of growth in a way that says they'll be hallmarks of the character's narratives. It all has an atmosphere, and this is entirely down to execution, of "Oh, this week Kuririn can do that. This week Gohan can do that." They're telling us strategy will come into play in the tournament, but it's going to have to show up in some big ways to feel like the series is moving sincerely away from the strength-based combat that's existed since the later half of the manga, and largely through the beginning of Super itself. The Trunks arc certainly didn't do anything to reset those expectations, as the name of the game there, Mafuba aside, remained raw power. Show me a big win in the upcoming tournament that relies on strategy over strength, and that doesn't feel like part of an episodic character spotlight, and I'll begin to come around.

The manga might be doing a little better on that front, with some tricky technique/transformation manipulation coming into play in the climax of the Future Trunks arc, and Zamasu managing to be a threat through his Kaioshin-styled combat powers. The basics of the fights against Hit in both versions also feel like the tournaments of old. In all, it's a direction I'd like the series to move in, but I haven't yet seen it done in a way that feels sincere or in line with the way Toriyama revealed non-power-based growth in the past.

Great post, but I might add that in the Future Trunks arc tactics and skills also played a part in the anime. Remember how Black was basically untouchable because of Zamasu shielding him with his immortality? Or how Black caught Vegeta by surprise by pulling off his ki blade to stab him? He also used the blade to impale first Goku and later Trunks too by going through Zamasu's body, which was something unexpected. Sure the arc was still heavily based on "whoever has more power wins" with the costant power-ups of the characters and ultimately the fusions, though I feel like it was a step in the right direction.

I am not so sure that is strictly true though, Trunks got a new form but in the end it didn't amount to much other than letting him hold off for a little bit longer, fusion from our side proved to be useless and in the end Zamasu ditched his physical body despite Trunks slashing him with the Spirit Sword Power-up and decided to over take the universe in a gaseous form. I'd actually say the Black kind of proved that power isn't everything, like you said Black used Zamasu's immortality to his advantage, Goku burst in rage but ultimately amounted to nothing, Vegeta seemingly had the upperhand on Black and then Black just pulled out some more tricks with that scythe thingy etc, their fusion had a hint of strategy about it too, they were finally losing the upperhand and fused to gain it back.

[omaro34]

So, here's the thing.

I wish it did! It'd be nice! Certainly a step above the power-based one-upsmanship that comes to characterize the later half of the manga (not that it's something that actively drags those stories down).

The thing is, there was always a sense of spectacle and progress to the technique-based one-upsmanship in the old series. Characters busted out new tricks as milestones. There were moments made of fighters at the Tenkaichi Budokai outsmarting one another in unexpected ways. There were all of Tenshinhan's weird techniques, and his ability to mimic others'. Kuririn's match against Piccolo showed both his new abilities and his cleverness in distracting his more powerful opponent. Goku's climactic win against Piccolo came down to surprise bukujutsu. All of this was baked into the narrative of the arcs; these were major developments played to the audience with as much awe and gravity as any later transformations or super attacks.

So far in Super, the anime, all we've had is lipservice, and that's partly down to the fact that the only episodes to emphasize this element so far have been -- and I'm ready for what will ensue in responses when I throw this word around -- filler. They've been part of padding, of inconsequential, likely Toei-original, moments of the series. There's only so much the writers can do with them, then, and it all comes off a bit half-hearted. Characters talk about strategy making a difference, but we aren't shown any watershed moments that illustrate it. Characters aren't growing their techniques. All of a sudden, Kuririn can ring-out Gohan, or Gohan can echo-locate with his ki, or Piccolo can maybe have a shot if he spends an episode charging the Makenkosappo, but those aren't symbolic of growth in a way that says they'll be hallmarks of the character's narratives. It all has an atmosphere, and this is entirely down to execution, of "Oh, this week Kuririn can do that. This week Gohan can do that." They're telling us strategy will come into play in the tournament, but it's going to have to show up in some big ways to feel like the series is moving sincerely away from the strength-based combat that's existed since the later half of the manga, and largely through the beginning of Super itself. The Trunks arc certainly didn't do anything to reset those expectations, as the name of the game there, Mafuba aside, remained raw power. Show me a big win in the upcoming tournament that relies on strategy over strength, and that doesn't feel like part of an episodic character spotlight, and I'll begin to come around.

The manga might be doing a little better on that front, with some tricky technique/transformation manipulation coming into play in the climax of the Future Trunks arc, and Zamasu managing to be a threat through his Kaioshin-styled combat powers. The basics of the fights against Hit in both versions also feel like the tournaments of old. In all, it's a direction I'd like the series to move in, but I haven't yet seen it done in a way that feels sincere or in line with the way Toriyama revealed non-power-based growth in the past.

Gotta agree with this. Though I thought Kuririn cutting the floor below Goku felt clever and genuine enough.

Cipher mentioned that this is apart of Toei's filler moments where strategy is mainly just talked about but never truly executed on; it never changes the plot in a meaningful way. When a character does something revolving around being a tactician, it feels like its more about the character getting the spotlight. It doesn't change the story, and even though it is talked about, we have yet to see strategy play a big role in the plot. The Mafuba being the thing to get rid of Zamasu would have ended this discussion for the most part, but it didn't.

Sure, you can argue that Goku beat Botamo using pure strategy, but Botamo was never meant to be a big player in U6's team. Hence whether Goku beat him using strategy or not, it didn't really change the plot at the end of the day.

[SaiyanZ]

Absolutely not. The only "tactic" in this new ToP is that one can't fly when they are out of bounds. That hardly counts as being called a "tactic" imo. Also, "Part 1" Dragon Ball wasn't overly tactical at all to me. The same things were being applied in Z, whether it was blinding an opponent with Taiyo-ken or being able to feel subtle changes in the air when an opponent moves. If anything Z had more with the ability to hide one's ki and such

[Jinzoningen MULE]

So, here's the thing.

I wish it did! It'd be nice! Certainly a step above the power-based one-upsmanship that comes to characterize the later half of the manga (not that it's something that actively drags those stories down).

The thing is, there was always a sense of spectacle and progress to the technique-based one-upsmanship in the old series. Characters busted out new tricks as milestones. There were moments made of fighters at the Tenkaichi Budokai outsmarting one another in unexpected ways. There were all of Tenshinhan's weird techniques, and his ability to mimic others'. Kuririn's match against Piccolo showed both his new abilities and his cleverness in distracting his more powerful opponent. Goku's climactic win against Piccolo came down to surprise bukujutsu. All of this was baked into the narrative of the arcs; these were major developments played to the audience with as much awe and gravity as any later transformations or super attacks.

So far in Super, the anime, all we've had is lipservice, and that's partly down to the fact that the only episodes to emphasize this element so far have been -- and I'm ready for what will ensue in responses when I throw this word around -- filler. They've been part of padding, of inconsequential, likely Toei-original, moments of the series. There's only so much the writers can do with them, then, and it all comes off a bit half-hearted. Characters talk about strategy making a difference, but we aren't shown any watershed moments that illustrate it. Characters aren't growing their techniques. All of a sudden, Kuririn can ring-out Gohan, or Gohan can echo-locate with his ki, or Piccolo can maybe have a shot if he spends an episode charging the Makenkosappo, but those aren't symbolic of growth in a way that says they'll be hallmarks of the character's narratives. It all has an atmosphere, and this is entirely down to execution, of "Oh, this week Kuririn can do that. This week Gohan can do that." They're telling us strategy will come into play in the tournament, but it's going to have to show up in some big ways to feel like the series is moving sincerely away from the strength-based combat that's existed since the later half of the manga, and largely through the beginning of Super itself. The Trunks arc certainly didn't do anything to reset those expectations, as the name of the game there, Mafuba aside, remained raw power. Show me a big win in the upcoming tournament that relies on strategy over strength, and that doesn't feel like part of an episodic character spotlight, and I'll begin to come around.

The manga might be doing a little better on that front, with some tricky technique/transformation manipulation coming into play in the climax of the Future Trunks arc, and Zamasu managing to be a threat through his Kaioshin-styled combat powers. The basics of the fights against Hit in both versions also feel like the tournaments of old. In all, it's a direction I'd like the series to move in, but I haven't yet seen it done in a way that feels sincere or in line with the way Toriyama revealed non-power-based growth in the past.

Cipher... I love ya buddy, but can you please be wrong for once!

I 100% agree. The implementation of strategic thinking in Super has been totally artificial up to this point.

[TheMathemagician]

That's really the thing. I can't agree with all the tactical moments (even the small ones) feeling artificial, but I do agree that most do.

[DBZAOTA482]

No, the "strategy" and "tactics" in Super are forced and gimmicky. I also don't get why people give it praise for it when most of the fights are won through one fighter overpowering the other.

[TheMathemagician]

No, the "strategy" and "tactics" in Super are forced and gimmicky. I also don't get why people give it praise for it when most of the fights are won through one fighter overpowering the other.

A problem DB has as a whole even in OG DB. Most fights are still won through one character being stronger than the other.