They never fixed the trunks warning of 19+20 thing?

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TobyS
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They never fixed the trunks warning of 19+20 thing?

Post by TobyS » Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:11 am

Why do you think they never fixed the plot hole of Trunks warning of 19 and 20. Yet then coming back and saying they were the wrong androids and you want 17 and 18.

They can't just have him warn of 17 and 18 because 19 and 20 loudly refer to themselves as such and no one reacts...

The fix would be to have him not say their numbers. Say something generic like “machine men with numbers for names” or that future 17 and 18 ARE called 19 and 20 because of the butterfly affect, and he says they have the wrong looking androids and assumes there is more despite the numbers being right....

Do you think it's possible to contact viz and have them change this in time for the full colour releases?
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: They never fixed the trunks warning of 19+20 thing?

Post by theherodjl » Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:48 am

TobyS wrote:Why do you think they never fixed the plot hole of Trunks warning of 19 and 20. Yet then coming back and saying they were the wrong androids and you want 17 and 18.

They can't just have him warn of 17 and 18 because 19 and 20 loudly refer to themselves as such and no one reacts...

The fix would be to have him not say their numbers. Say something generic like “machine men with numbers for names” or that future 17 and 18 ARE called 19 and 20 because of the butterfly affect, and he says they have the wrong looking androids and assumes there is more despite the numbers being right....

Do you think it's possible to contact viz and have them change this in time for the full colour releases?
I'm not following you here, did Viz specifically refer to 19 & 20 as "17 & 18" because I don't remember that from the fan translation manga I read from years ago? If that's the case then its just a "Vizism" of inserting dialogue that isn't faithfully correct, kind of like the Ocean or Funi dub.
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Re: They never fixed the trunks warning of 19+20 thing?

Post by TobyS » Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:31 am

theherodjl wrote:
TobyS wrote:Why do you think they never fixed the plot hole of Trunks warning of 19 and 20. Yet then coming back and saying they were the wrong androids and you want 17 and 18.

They can't just have him warn of 17 and 18 because 19 and 20 loudly refer to themselves as such and no one reacts...

The fix would be to have him not say their numbers. Say something generic like “machine men with numbers for names” or that future 17 and 18 ARE called 19 and 20 because of the butterfly affect, and he says they have the wrong looking androids and assumes there is more despite the numbers being right....

Do you think it's possible to contact viz and have them change this in time for the full colour releases?
I'm not following you here, did Viz specifically refer to 19 & 20 as "17 & 18" because I don't remember that from the fan translation manga I read from years ago? If that's the case then its just a "Vizism" of inserting dialogue that isn't faithfully correct, kind of like the Ocean or Funi dub.
Basically the out of universe explanation is ATs editor had him change the villains mid arc.

In the manga (not just viz I'm pretty sure) Trunks warns the dragon team (via Goku) about androids 19 and 20 attacking and killing them all.

19 and 20 attack and refer to themselves as 19 and 20.

Trunks comes back and says “these are the wrong androids.” This would be fine If he just says they looked wrong and assumed (correctly) that androids look like him are still around meaning Gero and Fatso are additional androids rather than replacement ones.

But he specifically says something like: “these are the wrong androids, you want 17 and 18”.

It's fucked. There's no real in universe logic to escape it. It needs to be changed or it's a plot hole.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: They never fixed the trunks warning of 19+20 thing?

Post by sintzu » Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:31 am

It's not a plot hole. Trunks just said 2 androids were coming but he didn't know about 19&20 due to him being a baby when they fought them so he didn't think it was important to tell them their names or what they looked like. Back in his timeline it was 15 years ago so Bulma shouldn't be blamed for not bringing it up to him before he left as so much had happened up to that point.
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Re: They never fixed the trunks warning of 19+20 thing?

Post by Wilderness » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:11 am

sintzu wrote:It's not a plot hole. Trunks just said 2 androids were coming but he didn't know about 19&20 due to him being a baby when they fought them so he didn't think it was important to tell them their names or what they looked like. Back in his timeline it was 15 years ago so Bulma shouldn't be blamed for not bringing it up to him before he left as so much had happened up to that point.
Actually, I don't think this was the case.

As far as memory serves, Trunks told Goku about 2 androids attacking. He didn't mention names or appearances, just "2 androids" - as plain and simple as that.
19 & 20 appeared from (please correct me if I'm wrong) Trunks and Cell interfering with the main timeline. A sort-of butterfly effect.

Out of universe, yeah we learned Tori was asked to change the villains as they looked too dated, but this is the in-universe discussions haha.
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Re: They never fixed the trunks warning of 19+20 thing?

Post by dbgtFO » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:15 am

sintzu wrote:It's not a plot hole. Trunks just said 2 androids were coming but he didn't know about 19&20 due to him being a baby when they fought them so he didn't think it was important to tell them their names or what they looked like. Back in his timeline it was 15 years ago so Bulma shouldn't be blamed for not bringing it up to him before he left as so much had happened up to that point.
Yes it is, Trunks specifically said 19 and 20 were the droids they were looking for, but then when he returns, he doesn't recognize them and instead says they were the wrong ones. IIRC he specifically pointed it out it was 17 and 18.
The anime fixed this by not having Trunks specifically name them.
Still this is not something Viz have to fix. It's a flaw of the original manga and they just translated it correctly.

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Re: They never fixed the trunks warning of 19+20 thing?

Post by TobyS » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:39 am

dbgtFO wrote:
sintzu wrote:It's not a plot hole. Trunks just said 2 androids were coming but he didn't know about 19&20 due to him being a baby when they fought them so he didn't think it was important to tell them their names or what they looked like. Back in his timeline it was 15 years ago so Bulma shouldn't be blamed for not bringing it up to him before he left as so much had happened up to that point.
Yes it is, Trunks specifically said 19 and 20 were the droids they were looking for, but then when he returns, he doesn't recognize them and instead says they were the wrong ones. IIRC he specifically pointed it out it was 17 and 18.
The anime fixed this by not having Trunks specifically name them.
Still this is not something Viz have to fix. It's a flaw of the original manga and they just translated it correctly.
Thank you. You are correct he refers to them as 19 and 20 in the manga then says 17 and 18 later...

The question is:
1. Should viz fix it, why not it'd be better than having a mistake.
2. Are they allowed to deliberately change the script even though it's a mistake...
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: They never fixed the trunks warning of 19+20 thing?

Post by sintzu » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:59 am

dbgtFO wrote:The anime fixed this by not having Trunks specifically name them.
I had no idea the anime fixed this. I don't know how things play out in the manga but the anime is pretty clear about it so it's seemingly only a plot hole in the manga.
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Re: They never fixed the trunks warning of 19+20 thing?

Post by sintzu » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:03 am

Wilderness wrote: 19 & 20 appeared from (please correct me if I'm wrong) Trunks and Cell interfering with the main timeline. A sort-of butterfly effect.
In the anime Trunks says 17 & 18 were stronger than they were in his timeline because of that butterfly effect. I'm going to watch the arc again soon so I'll pay attention for any major plot holes.
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Re: They never fixed the trunks warning of 19+20 thing?

Post by sunsetshimmer » Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:16 am

I was just reading it yesterday and i was thinking the same. Here is a proof:
Image

It obviously is a plothole. Big plothole. They could try to explain this by Trunks stating that in his timeline the twins are actually 19 and 20, but he later somehow knew that 17 is a boy and 18 is a girl. This is a mess. The best solution would be changing entire scene and make Trunks not give a numbers of them to Goku.
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Re: They never fixed the trunks warning of 19+20 thing?

Post by TobyS » Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:42 am

sunsetshimmer wrote:I was just reading it yesterday and i was thinking the same. Here is a proof:
Image

It obviously is a plothole. Big plothole. They could try to explain this by Trunks stating that in his timeline the twins are actually 19 and 20, but he later somehow knew that 17 is a boy and 18 is a girl. This is a mess. The best solution would be changing entire scene and make Trunks not give a numbers of them to Goku.
Yeah that's the best fix overall but it's weird that he wouldn't tell them their names though... but if he did they'd know they got the wrong ones straight away without being told. the second best fix is to call the future ones 19 and 20 even though they look like our 17 and 18. This would be confusing but it'd mean Trunks didn't leave out any info and the dragon team could still be surprised they aren't the right androids.

We know the butterfly effect can't apply forwards into his timelines, that's why it was a plot point that Trunks knew when his home time was still trashed that the androids being stopped in the present didn't help. Him and Bulma just switched to their backup plan of “well there deserves to be one peaceful future and maybe we can borrow their Goku as well” once they knew for sure it was multiverse time travel and not overwriting time travel.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: They never fixed the trunks warning of 19+20 thing?

Post by shadowfox87 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:22 pm

One has to understand that characters in an anime can also make mistakes. These are words and interpretations based on their own knowledge. Hell, Burter once said he's the fastest person in the universe... When the Androids attacked South City in Age 767, Trunks was still a baby. How would he know which Androids attacked South City? We know that Android 17 and 18 eventually killed Dr. Gero and destroyed the remote. Most likely, in Future Trunks timeline, they killed Android 19 and Dr. Gero (20). Then Android 17 and 18 attacked South city. He mistakenly thought they were 19 and 20, not realizing it's 17 and 18 until he found out that there's a difference after coming back to the main timeline.

Trunks arriving back in time, killing Freeza, made Dr. Gero's ladybug robot collect information about him, which made Android 17 and 18 stronger. Perhaps, this made Dr. Gero deactivate them earlier which is why Android 17 and 18 were sleeping. This led to Android 19 and Dr. Gero attacking South City instead of 17 and 18.

In fact, if you read the official Trunks The History - The Lone Warrior manga, nowhere does Future Gohan, Bulma, or Trunks say 17 or 18. The japanese translation just says "Androids". This means that they didn't know what numbers those Androids were. Now if the manga said 17 and 18, but then Trunks said 19 and 20 to Goku, THAT would be a plot hole.

Basically, you can fix the plot hole by just saying that Trunks was an idiot and didn't know that there were more Androids.
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Re: They never fixed the trunks warning of 19+20 thing?

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:12 pm

No, they didn't. The original manga has Trunks saying 19 and 20 too:
Image

That's because Mr Toriyama still had in mind 19 and 20 being the main villians. As he changed his mind and decided to have 17 and 18 as the main villians, Trunks' statement was probably retconed, or the two Trunkses are different Trunkses altogether.
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Re: They never fixed the trunks warning of 19+20 thing?

Post by buutenks » Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:01 pm

I never understood why these little things matter. It is a little mistake that Toriyama had no power over, since he cannot see in the future. It is fiction, so you must expect it to have mistakes, since humans are flawed beings.

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Re: They never fixed the trunks warning of 19+20 thing?

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:27 pm

Toriyama has never cared to fix plot holes. Why is this one any different than many other plot holes.
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Re: They never fixed the trunks warning of 19+20 thing?

Post by TobyS » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:20 pm

Cure Dragon 255 wrote:Toriyama has never cared to fix plot holes. Why is this one any different than many other plot holes.
How many other plotholes exist that couldn't be explained away?

And how many of them would be as easy to fix as changing one line of text?
buutenks wrote:I never understood why these little things matter. It is a little mistake that Toriyama had no power over, since he cannot see in the future. It is fiction, so you must expect it to have mistakes, since humans are flawed beings.
I'm not mad at him, it's his editors fault if anyone and even then I don't care much.

I just think it'd be cool and easy to fix in further editions and wanted to discuss.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: They never fixed the trunks warning of 19+20 thing?

Post by theherodjl » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:44 pm

I honestly never realized that this mistake existed, I guess we can chalk it up to either Toriyama's shortsighted style of writing or a typographical error. However, It should be worth mentioning that Toriyama had admitted that the debacle with the Androids was a result of his editor changing the original vision of this arc, being unsatisfied with the designs of any villains until Cell achieved his Perfect form. Androids 19 & 20 were always intended by Toriyama to be the original pair of Androids but the publishers made their concerns clear, Toriyama abided to protect his nest egg in the end.
Last edited by theherodjl on Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: They never fixed the trunks warning of 19+20 thing?

Post by TheQuazz » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:45 pm

Cure Dragon 255 wrote:Toriyama has never cared to fix plot holes. Why is this one any different than many other plot holes.
He fixed a plothole in the Saiyan arc where Gohan and Krillin talk to each other like they've only just met before fighting the Saiyans. The dialogue was altered in the collected release of the manga, so it's weird that something similar wasn't done to fix the android numbering error.

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Re: They never fixed the trunks warning of 19+20 thing?

Post by Darkprince410 » Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:48 pm

TobyS wrote:\

The question is:
1. Should viz fix it, why not it'd be better than having a mistake.
2. Are they allowed to deliberately change the script even though it's a mistake...

Them fixing it would end up causing other problems as well, namely the fact that Gero refers to himself and #19 by number designation when confronting Goku and the others. If Trunks mentioned #17 and #18 by the correct numbers, then there wouldn't be the shock of it being revealed that they'd been fighting the wrong Artificial Humans.
theherodjl wrote:I honestly never realized that this mistake existed, I guess we can chalk it up to either Toriyama's shortsighted style of writing or a typographical error. However, It should be worth mentioning that Toriyama had admitted that the debacle with the Androids was a result of his editor changing the original vision of this arc, being unsatisfied with the designs of any villains until Cell achieved his Perfect form. Androids 19 & 20 were always intended by Toriyama to be the original pair of Androids but the publishers made their concerns clear, Toriyama abided to protect his nest egg in the end.
Toriyama likely hadn't come up with the ideas for the Artificial Humans by the time he had Trunks first give the warning (as Toriyama himself had mentioned he was basically writing at a chapter by chapter basis by that point in the manga), so he likely only had those two in mind when Trunks gave his warning. Torishima's ultimatum to change the villains probably didn't happen till after.
TheQuazz wrote:
He fixed a plothole in the Saiyan arc where Gohan and Krillin talk to each other like they've only just met before fighting the Saiyans. The dialogue was altered in the collected release of the manga, so it's weird that something similar wasn't done to fix the android numbering error.
I'm not familiar with this particular "plothole", when did it happen originally and what was the gist of it?

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Re: They never fixed the trunks warning of 19+20 thing?

Post by VegettoEX » Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:03 pm

Darkprince410 wrote:I'm not familiar with this particular "plothole", when did it happen originally and what was the gist of it?
Chapter 213:

Gohan: Um…! Would you be the person called ‘Kuririn’…?!
Kuririn: Yep! You’re Goku’s son, aren’t you! Ha ha! You look a lot like him!!
Gohan: I knew it! You’re just like Dad said!
Kuririn: …I bet he probably said something like ‘the guy with the head like a pinball’, right…?

Changed to:

Gohan: I remember now! You’re the person from back at Master Kame-Sen’nin’s house…
Kuririn: The name’s Kuririn! You’ve gotten a lot stronger! You’re like your dad was when he was a little kid!
Gohan: You’re small but strong, right?! Dad said that a lot!
Kuririn: ‘Small’… was uncalled for… That jerk… and I thought I’d gotten pretty big…
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