Something I thought of regarding the SS2 Gohan scene in Japanese

[90sDBZ]

The scene where Gohan goes SS2 is regarded by many fans (particularly fans of the original) to be the single greatest moment of the series. Many highlight the use of the insert song Day of Fate ~Spirit VS Spirit~it~ as a huge reason for this, and I can see why as it's an awesome song.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=px8aiW3GEME
I'm a dub fan but I actually prefer the Japanese version of this scene because of this song. It's just that good.

With that said here's what I wanted to address. It's very much an uplifting and heroic sounding song, even having lyrics like "aim for the dawn" and "chase away the darkness", at least in the translations I've seen anyway. In many ways those lyrics are in line with something you'd hear Goku say in the Funimation Z dub, so why don't fans of the original have a problem with this?

Another point I wanted to make is Goku going SS1 in the dub. Fans of the original claim the heroic music Faulconer plays there is unfitting because of the context of the scene. They say it's supposed to be a grim and unsettling scene because all the horrible stuff that's happening has caused Goku to snap and potentially lose himself, and presenting it as heroic or miraculous is inappropriate.

So how is the use of the uplifting Day of Fate ~Spirit VS Spirit~it~ any more acceptable when Gohan goes SS2? I mean lets look at the context for a minute. We have a 10 year old boy who's been pushed by his father to fight against his will against an evil monster, who has been tortured both physically and mentally and has been pushed to the breaking point, and who unlike Goku on Namek actually does lose himself for awhile, and eventually gets his father killed.

Now again I'll state that I love the song and the use of it in that scene, because I don't overanalyse the context when I watch it. Same with Goku going SS1 in the dub. For me it's a simple case of "The good guy is getting stronger! Hurray!" in both cases.

So basically I just find it hypocritical when fans of the original criticise the SS1 scene in the dub for not fitting the context. Now I know that many of you don't like replacements scores on principal alone, and that's fair enough. But here I'm addressing those who say the score legitimately didn't fit at all in that scene. I'm just pointing out that if you're going to take the context of one scene dead seriously, you should be doing it with every scene in every version.

Thoughts?

[MasenkoHA]

. In many ways those lyrics are in line with something you'd hear Goku say in the Funimation Z dub, so why don't fans of the original have a problem with this?

Because there’s a huge difference between what is suppose to be an uneducated kung fu bumpkin saying stuff like that and it coming from a song that isn’t suppose to be any particular character singing but kind of a third party omniscent narrator.

Also most of the stuff Funi Goku says seems straight outta Captain Planet or Power Rangers or a Silver Age comic book

Another point I wanted to make is Goku going SS1 in the dub. Fans of the original claim the heroic music Faulconer plays there is unfitting because of the context of the scene

The music was heroic in the dub? I guess?

. They say it's supposed to be a grim and unsettling scene because all the horrible stuff that's happening has caused Goku to snap and potentially lose himself, and presenting it as heroic or miraculous is inappropriate.

So how is the use of the uplifting Day of Fate ~Spirit VS Spirit~it~ any more acceptable when Gohan goes SS2? I mean lets look at the context for a minute. We have a 10 year old boy who's been pushed by his father to fight against his will against an evil monster, who has been tortured both physically and mentally and has been pushed to the breaking point, and who unlike Goku on Namek actually does lose himself for awhile, and eventually gets his father killed.

Now again I'll state that I love the song and the use of it in that scene, because I don't overanalyse the context when I watch it. Same with Goku going SS1 in the dub. For me it's a simple case of "The good guy is getting stronger! Hurray!" in both cases.

So basically I just find it hypocritical when fans of the original criticise the SS1 scene in the dub for not fitting the context. Now I know that many of you don't like replacements scores on principal alone, and that's fair enough. But here I'm addressing those who say the score legitimately didn't fit at all in that scene. I'm just pointing out that if you're going to take the context of one scene dead seriously, you should be doing it with every scene in every version.

Thoughts?

I don’t know about the argument “the music didn’t fit in the Funi dub” but here’s the thing obviously this is super subjective but the music from the Faulconer score is fucking awful. Again I can’t stress matter of opinion but it’s not hard to see why someone would prefer Day of Fate playing over whatever that crap was with Faulconer for Goku based on quality alone.


Schemmel’s acting in 1999 is also another thing but we’re talking music here

[90sDBZ]

. In many ways those lyrics are in line with something you'd hear Goku say in the Funimation Z dub, so why don't fans of the original have a problem with this?

Because there’s a huge difference between what is suppose to be an uneducated kung fu bumpkin saying stuff like that and it coming from a song that isn’t suppose to be any particular character singing but kind of a third party omniscent narrator.

Also most of the stuff Funi Goku says seems straight outta Captain Planet or Power Rangers or a Silver Age comic book

Another point I wanted to make is Goku going SS1 in the dub. Fans of the original claim the heroic music Faulconer plays there is unfitting because of the context of the scene

The music was heroic in the dub? I guess?

. They say it's supposed to be a grim and unsettling scene because all the horrible stuff that's happening has caused Goku to snap and potentially lose himself, and presenting it as heroic or miraculous is inappropriate.

So how is the use of the uplifting Day of Fate ~Spirit VS Spirit~it~ any more acceptable when Gohan goes SS2? I mean lets look at the context for a minute. We have a 10 year old boy who's been pushed by his father to fight against his will against an evil monster, who has been tortured both physically and mentally and has been pushed to the breaking point, and who unlike Goku on Namek actually does lose himself for awhile, and eventually gets his father killed.

Now again I'll state that I love the song and the use of it in that scene, because I don't overanalyse the context when I watch it. Same with Goku going SS1 in the dub. For me it's a simple case of "The good guy is getting stronger! Hurray!" in both cases.

So basically I just find it hypocritical when fans of the original criticise the SS1 scene in the dub for not fitting the context. Now I know that many of you don't like replacements scores on principal alone, and that's fair enough. But here I'm addressing those who say the score legitimately didn't fit at all in that scene. I'm just pointing out that if you're going to take the context of one scene dead seriously, you should be doing it with every scene in every version.

Thoughts?

I don’t know about the argument “the music didn’t fit in the Funi dub” but here’s the thing obviously this is super subjective but the music from the Faulconer score is fucking awful. Again I can’t stress matter of opinion but it’s not hard to see why someone would prefer Day of Fate playing over whatever that crap was with Faulconer for Goku based on quality alone.


Schemmel’s acting in 1999 is also another thing but we’re talking music here

Like you said quality is subjective so I'm not going to bother arguing about that.

But whether it's a character or singer saying those lines it doesn't make a difference. A song represents what a scene is all about, and in that moment the song was basically calling Gohan the Hope of the Universe for all intents and purposes, even though he was actually a vengeful sadistic person for the next few episodes.

[MyVisionity]

Like you said quality is subjective so I'm not going to bother arguing about that.

Quality can be both subjective and objective so don't think you can't argue it if you desire.

[Kaboom]

Long story short... because Goku isn't the heroic, justice-and-peace-loving type, but Gohan is.

The song's lyrics reflect Gohan's motivations and personality fairly well, but they wouldn't reflect Goku's any more than his dumb "Hope of the Universe" dub speech does.

[Forte224]

Well for one thing, the SS1 Faulconer track is hardly heroic. The Faulconer track that plays when Goku moves Cell to Kaio's world is heroic. The SS1 track isn't. One reason the SS1 song is unfitting is that it's a blatant "Look at how awesome this song is kids!! Even though you have no idea what's going on right now and Goku is literally losing his mind and sensibilities, becoming a violent Saiyan of legend! Hooray!!" It's just another way FUNimation showed they had no idea what was actually going on in the show. They just wanted to make it cool.

Anyway, to specifically address your points, it's because at that point, on Namek, Super Saiyan was a form where it literally altered the person's character. We've heard Vegeta talking about how a Super Saiyan was a bloodthirsty warrior. We see Goku almost immediately tell Gohan to leave before he loses all reason. Then later we see him allow Freeza to go 100% instead of just finishing him. Kaio states this is clearly the transformation messing with him, and Goku agrees he's struggling with these feelings. Despite it happening because he lost his friend, and it being the only way he will defeat Freeza, there's nothing particularly heroic about the form itself.

Also, this is the first time the audience has seen Goku transform since the Oozaru. And it's in a similar manner too, where his pupils disappear. This transformation is what happens when Goku has been pushed to the brink, and it's something the audience isn't expecting.

In Gohan's case, we already know the main ideas of Super Saiyan, how it works, how there's a way to ascend it, and (most importantly for this discussion) how Gohan and Goku have mastered it, so now they're at the point where their power drain AND their personalities match their base forms. His transformation isn't unexpected, quite the opposite actually. And when he does reach it, he hasn't lost his reason the same way Goku did. Also, Gohan, Goku and Cell were expecting something to happen when Gohan lost it, they just didn't know exactly what it would be like. But it wasn't supposed to be a shocking, uncomfortable moment the way SS1 was, where the audience had no idea what was happening and the character was losing their mind and sensibilities.

Taken at face value, each scene may seem similar. But when looking at all the context and what each transformation meant, they're quite different.

Oh, and why would fans of the original have an issue with the lyrics being heroic and uplifting when Gohan is the focus? Do you think fans of the original have an issue with heroism in general or something? Heroic lyrics clearly fit Gohan, I mean he literally became a super hero in the Boo arc and always has shown more selflessness than his father. But that's a bit of a side point.

[Forte224]

Long story short... because Goku isn't the heroic, justice-and-peace-loving type, but Gohan is.

The song's lyrics reflect Gohan's motivations and personality fairly well, but they wouldn't reflect Goku's any more than his dumb "Hope of the Universe" dub speech does.

I mean, that's true, Goku isn't the heroic type. But there are moments where the music fits a heroic theme for him. Just look at when he lands on Namek and the Genki Dama song plays (or is that when he recovers from the rejuvenation tank? Either way, same principle) That's clearly a heroic, hope filled moment. He does genuinely want to help and save his friends, it's just that fighting strong people is technically number 1 on his priorities (as stated by Roshi to Yajirobe in the hospital when Goku recovers from the Vegeta fight).

The point is, there are (rare) times where a heroic song can fit what Goku is doing. It's just that his Super Saiyan transformation is definitively not one of those moments. The song that plays is to emphasize what's happening to Goku and the overall feel of the scene, not to emphasize his personality. In either case, a heroic/awesome-dawesome guitar shreddin' track just doesn't fit the scene.

[ABED]

Goku letting Freeza reach full power had nothing to do with turning Super Saiyan. I think people overestimate its effect on his character. He let Vegeta go for a better fight and refused to let anyone help him stop Piccolo at the tournament. He'd done this before.

[Forte224]

Goku letting Freeza reach full power had nothing to do with turning Super Saiyan. I think people overestimate its effect on his character. He let Vegeta go for a better fight and refused to let anyone help him stop Piccolo at the tournament. He'd done this before.

Him and Kaio both state that the Super Saiyan transformation is affecting him in that scene.

[ABED]

Goku letting Freeza reach full power had nothing to do with turning Super Saiyan. I think people overestimate its effect on his character. He let Vegeta go for a better fight and refused to let anyone help him stop Piccolo at the tournament. He'd done this before.

Him and Kaio both state that the Super Saiyan transformation is affecting him in that scene.

Kaio didn't take into account the time it would take Goku to get back to Earth when Goku was training to fight the Saiyans. He's not omniscient. I don't recall Goku saying it was SSJ that made him desire to fight Freeza at his full power. We've seen Goku do things like this well before turning SSJ. Goku loves to fight the best. This is his raison d'etre, not a result of his transformation. He gained control of his emotions fairly quickly.

For the love of god, will people stop blaming Goku for Gohan being the one to fight Cell?! Drives me bonkers when people dismiss that Gohan was the only one would could win against Cell.

Anyway, the thread is interesting, and regardless of whether Gohan is vengeful, he was the only hope the world had left.

[Forte224]

Goku letting Freeza reach full power had nothing to do with turning Super Saiyan. I think people overestimate its effect on his character. He let Vegeta go for a better fight and refused to let anyone help him stop Piccolo at the tournament. He'd done this before.

Him and Kaio both state that the Super Saiyan transformation is affecting him in that scene.

Kaio didn't take into account the time it would take Goku to get back to Earth when Goku was training to fight the Saiyans. He's not omniscient. I don't recall Goku saying it was SSJ that made him desire to fight Freeza at his full power. We've seen Goku do things like this well before turning SSJ. Goku loves to fight the best. This is his raison d'etre, not a result of his transformation. He gained control of his emotions fairly quickly.

For the love of god, will people stop blaming Goku for Gohan being the one to fight Cell?! Drives me bonkers when people dismiss that Gohan was the only one would could win against Cell.

Anyway, the thread is interesting, and regardless of whether Gohan is vengeful, he was the only hope the world had left.

Holy crap you're reaching here. Toriyama isn't that type of writer. He doesn't have someone like Kaio say things like that, while in the back of his mind he is thinking "Hehe, that's not ACTUALLY true, I'm just pointlessly writing it in". Don't make stuff up just so it fits your argument. What's the point of Kaio saying that if it was wrong, but it was never actually revealed to be wrong?

[90sDBZ]

Long story short... because Goku isn't the heroic, justice-and-peace-loving type, but Gohan is.

The song's lyrics reflect Gohan's motivations and personality fairly well, but they wouldn't reflect Goku's any more than his dumb "Hope of the Universe" dub speech does.

What you say about Gohan is true for every point in the series except this exact moment in time, where his goal changes from protecting others to seeking revenge for his own amusement. Having this song play here feels misleading if you take Gohan's actions on the following few episodes into consideration.

Well for one thing, the SS1 Faulconer track is hardly heroic. The Faulconer track that plays when Goku moves Cell to Kaio's world is heroic. The SS1 track isn't. One reason the SS1 song is unfitting is that it's a blatant "Look at how awesome this song is kids!! Even though you have no idea what's going on right now and Goku is literally losing his mind and sensibilities, becoming a violent Saiyan of legend! Hooray!!" It's just another way FUNimation showed they had no idea what was actually going on in the show. They just wanted to make it cool.

Anyway, to specifically address your points, it's because at that point, on Namek, Super Saiyan was a form where it literally altered the person's character. We've heard Vegeta talking about how a Super Saiyan was a bloodthirsty warrior. We see Goku almost immediately tell Gohan to leave before he loses all reason. Then later we see him allow Freeza to go 100% instead of just finishing him. Kaio states this is clearly the transformation messing with him, and Goku agrees he's struggling with these feelings. Despite it happening because he lost his friend, and it being the only way he will defeat Freeza, there's nothing particularly heroic about the form itself.

Also, this is the first time the audience has seen Goku transform since the Oozaru. And it's in a similar manner too, where his pupils disappear. This transformation is what happens when Goku has been pushed to the brink, and it's something the audience isn't expecting.

In Gohan's case, we already know the main ideas of Super Saiyan, how it works, how there's a way to ascend it, and (most importantly for this discussion) how Gohan and Goku have mastered it, so now they're at the point where their power drain AND their personalities match their base forms. His transformation isn't unexpected, quite the opposite actually. And when he does reach it, he hasn't lost his reason the same way Goku did. Also, Gohan, Goku and Cell were expecting something to happen when Gohan lost it, they just didn't know exactly what it would be like. But it wasn't supposed to be a shocking, uncomfortable moment the way SS1 was, where the audience had no idea what was happening and the character was losing their mind and sensibilities.

Taken at face value, each scene may seem similar. But when looking at all the context and what each transformation meant, they're quite different.

Oh, and why would fans of the original have an issue with the lyrics being heroic and uplifting when Gohan is the focus? Do you think fans of the original have an issue with heroism in general or something? Heroic lyrics clearly fit Gohan, I mean he literally became a super hero in the Boo arc and always has shown more selflessness than his father. But that's a bit of a side point.

I used the word heroic because that's a word I've seen many fans use when criticising the Faulconer placement. Personally I've always got more of a miraculous vibe from that track.

Anyway I'll have to strongly disagree with you over Goku's transformation being more unsettling. He gets angry and is much more disgruntled than normal, but for the most part he's still the same guy as he was before.

Gohan's personality literally does a 180 and he goes from being a kindhearted boy scout to a ruthless and coldblooded fighter, basically another Vegeta. In fact if you read the manga the ways he kills the Cell Jrs are even more brutal. He then goes on to torture Cell to a point that even Goku wouldn't have done to Frieza. Once Frieza was no longer a challenge Goku lost interest in fighting him altogether and tried to let him go. Gohan on the other hand continued to torment Cell long after it was clear he was already beaten, and even ignored an order from his own father with an arrogant smirk on his face, something he wouldn't have dreamed of doing before. To top it off he then got his own father killed.

So much for the "aiming for the dawn" or "chasing away the darkness". Taking all of that into consideration I don't know how you could claim that Goku was changed more than Gohan upon transforming. You said that Super Saiyan was more familiarised by the Cell arc, but SS2 was still uncharted territory. And if you look at how Gohan acted during the filler when he first went SS1, it's clear that achieving a new form for the first time could have unpredictable effects.

[TobyS]

Re: freeza getting to 100%, goku does like to fight, but I read this as he wanted to humiliate freeza totally leaving him with no excuse or doubt, and he wanted to do it to punish him for what he did to Kuririn.

And that's unlike him.

[ABED]

Him and Kaio both state that the Super Saiyan transformation is affecting him in that scene.

Kaio didn't take into account the time it would take Goku to get back to Earth when Goku was training to fight the Saiyans. He's not omniscient. I don't recall Goku saying it was SSJ that made him desire to fight Freeza at his full power. We've seen Goku do things like this well before turning SSJ. Goku loves to fight the best. This is his raison d'etre, not a result of his transformation. He gained control of his emotions fairly quickly.

For the love of god, will people stop blaming Goku for Gohan being the one to fight Cell?! Drives me bonkers when people dismiss that Gohan was the only one would could win against Cell.

Anyway, the thread is interesting, and regardless of whether Gohan is vengeful, he was the only hope the world had left.

Holy crap you're reaching here. Toriyama isn't that type of writer. He doesn't have someone like Kaio say things like that, while in the back of his mind he is thinking "Hehe, that's not ACTUALLY true, I'm just pointlessly writing it in". Don't make stuff up just so it fits your argument. What's the point of Kaio saying that if it was wrong, but it was never actually revealed to be wrong?

To up the drama. And I've made up nothing. It doesn't matter if Toriyama intended it or not. Goku has in fact done things like this before. It's not out of character. What have I made up?

I'll concede Toby's point, but you said Goku letting Freeza reach full power is because he's turned SSJ. It's just not true. It's not out of character to not do the expedient thing for the sake of a battle. Christ, the whole Cell arc hinges upon him not doing the expedient thing.

[Forte224]

Long story short... because Goku isn't the heroic, justice-and-peace-loving type, but Gohan is.

The song's lyrics reflect Gohan's motivations and personality fairly well, but they wouldn't reflect Goku's any more than his dumb "Hope of the Universe" dub speech does.

What you say about Gohan is true for every point in the series except this exact moment in time, where his goal changes from protecting others to seeking revenge for his own amusement. Having this song play here feels misleading if you take Gohan's actions on the following few episodes into consideration.

Well for one thing, the SS1 Faulconer track is hardly heroic. The Faulconer track that plays when Goku moves Cell to Kaio's world is heroic. The SS1 track isn't. One reason the SS1 song is unfitting is that it's a blatant "Look at how awesome this song is kids!! Even though you have no idea what's going on right now and Goku is literally losing his mind and sensibilities, becoming a violent Saiyan of legend! Hooray!!" It's just another way FUNimation showed they had no idea what was actually going on in the show. They just wanted to make it cool.

Anyway, to specifically address your points, it's because at that point, on Namek, Super Saiyan was a form where it literally altered the person's character. We've heard Vegeta talking about how a Super Saiyan was a bloodthirsty warrior. We see Goku almost immediately tell Gohan to leave before he loses all reason. Then later we see him allow Freeza to go 100% instead of just finishing him. Kaio states this is clearly the transformation messing with him, and Goku agrees he's struggling with these feelings. Despite it happening because he lost his friend, and it being the only way he will defeat Freeza, there's nothing particularly heroic about the form itself.

Also, this is the first time the audience has seen Goku transform since the Oozaru. And it's in a similar manner too, where his pupils disappear. This transformation is what happens when Goku has been pushed to the brink, and it's something the audience isn't expecting.

In Gohan's case, we already know the main ideas of Super Saiyan, how it works, how there's a way to ascend it, and (most importantly for this discussion) how Gohan and Goku have mastered it, so now they're at the point where their power drain AND their personalities match their base forms. His transformation isn't unexpected, quite the opposite actually. And when he does reach it, he hasn't lost his reason the same way Goku did. Also, Gohan, Goku and Cell were expecting something to happen when Gohan lost it, they just didn't know exactly what it would be like. But it wasn't supposed to be a shocking, uncomfortable moment the way SS1 was, where the audience had no idea what was happening and the character was losing their mind and sensibilities.

Taken at face value, each scene may seem similar. But when looking at all the context and what each transformation meant, they're quite different.

Oh, and why would fans of the original have an issue with the lyrics being heroic and uplifting when Gohan is the focus? Do you think fans of the original have an issue with heroism in general or something? Heroic lyrics clearly fit Gohan, I mean he literally became a super hero in the Boo arc and always has shown more selflessness than his father. But that's a bit of a side point.

I used the word heroic because that's a word I've seen many fans use when criticising the Faulconer placement. Personally I've always got more of a miraculous vibe from that track.

Anyway I'll have to strongly disagree with you over Goku's transformation being more unsettling. He gets angry and is much more disgruntled than normal, but for the most part he's still the same guy as he was before.

Gohan's personality literally does a 180 and he goes from being a kindhearted boy scout to a ruthless and coldblooded fighter, basically another Vegeta. In fact if you read the manga the ways he kills the Cell Jrs are even more brutal. He then goes on to torture Cell to a point that even Goku wouldn't have done to Frieza. Once Frieza was no longer a challenge Goku lost interest in fighting him altogether and tried to let him go. Gohan on the other hand continued to torment Cell long after it was clear he was already beaten, and even ignored an order from his own father with an arrogant smirk on his face, something he wouldn't have dreamed of doing before. To top it off he then got his own father killed.

So much for the "aiming for the dawn" or "chasing away the darkness". Taking all of that into consideration I don't know how you could claim that Goku was changed more than Gohan upon transforming. You said that Super Saiyan was more familiarised by the Cell arc, but SS2 was still uncharted territory. And if you look at how Gohan acted during the filler when he first went SS1, it's clear that achieving a new form for the first time could have unpredictable effects.

I mean, Gohan is clearly terrified when Goku transforms. No one is terrified when Gohan does. They're surprised, but not terrified. The SS1 scene itself doesn't invoke any sense of "YEAH! Goku's time to shine baby!!" Because how would we know it's his time to shine? We have no idea what's happening. Or at least, we're not supposed to. The only comparative scene is Goku going Oozaru, which was certainly not heroic. The SS1 scene clearly invokes a rage filled warrior losing his mind. Gohan's transformation was the culmination of all of his rage filled moments over the course of his time in the series, with the song even calling him the messiah, or "chosen one" basically.

[Forte224]

Kaio didn't take into account the time it would take Goku to get back to Earth when Goku was training to fight the Saiyans. He's not omniscient. I don't recall Goku saying it was SSJ that made him desire to fight Freeza at his full power. We've seen Goku do things like this well before turning SSJ. Goku loves to fight the best. This is his raison d'etre, not a result of his transformation. He gained control of his emotions fairly quickly.

For the love of god, will people stop blaming Goku for Gohan being the one to fight Cell?! Drives me bonkers when people dismiss that Gohan was the only one would could win against Cell.

Anyway, the thread is interesting, and regardless of whether Gohan is vengeful, he was the only hope the world had left.

Holy crap you're reaching here. Toriyama isn't that type of writer. He doesn't have someone like Kaio say things like that, while in the back of his mind he is thinking "Hehe, that's not ACTUALLY true, I'm just pointlessly writing it in". Don't make stuff up just so it fits your argument. What's the point of Kaio saying that if it was wrong, but it was never actually revealed to be wrong?

To up the drama. And I've made up nothing. It doesn't matter if Toriyama intended it or not. Goku has in fact done things like this before. It's not out of character. What have I made up?

I'll concede Toby's point, but you said Goku letting Freeza reach full power is because he's turned SSJ. It's just not true. It's not out of character to not do the expedient thing for the sake of a battle. Christ, the whole Cell arc hinges upon him not doing the expedient thing.

Kaio said it was true, he said it plain as day. Goku's not himself anymore. If we're going to act like these are real characters and not fictional characters, then we know Kaio saw Goku spare Vegeta, yet he clearly saw a difference in Goku's character against Freeza and letting him power up. You're indeed making stuff up by contradicting what Toriyama wrote on page. And it doesn't up the drama in any way if it isn't actually true.

[ABED]

In case it hasn't been noted, while SSJ2 was new, SSJ wasn't.

Kaio said it was true, he said it plain as day. Goku's not himself anymore. If we're going to act like these are real characters and not fictional characters, then we know Kaio saw Goku spare Vegeta, yet he clearly saw a difference in Goku's character against Freeza and letting him power up. You're indeed making stuff up by contradicting what Toriyama wrote on page. And it doesn't up the drama in any way if it isn't actually true.

I know he did. I'm not denying he said it, but Kaio isn't all knowing. He can make mistakes. He has made mistakes. And art is show don't tell. Toriyama can tell me Goku is different all he wants, but if his actions aren't different, it doesn't matter what the author has the characters say. I'm not making anything up. How have I made anything up? Have I made up events in the story? Are any of the examples I cited wrong? I didn't contradict what Toriyama wrote, he did. It wouldn't be the first time.

It ups the drama because Kaio is surprised by Goku's temperament, so the audience is supposed to be surprised. He has never seen this side of him, although in actuality, he has. Goku let Vegeta go for the sake of a fight. You say Kaio saw it but also saw a difference in Goku on Namek, so what was the difference?

[90sDBZ]

I mean, Gohan is clearly terrified when Goku transforms. No one is terrified when Gohan does. They're surprised, but not terrified. The SS1 scene itself doesn't invoke any sense of "YEAH! Goku's time to shine baby!!" Because how would we know it's his time to shine? We have no idea what's happening. Or at least, we're not supposed to. The only comparative scene is Goku going Oozaru, which was certainly not heroic. The SS1 scene clearly invokes a rage filled warrior losing his mind. Gohan's transformation was the culmination of all of his rage filled moments over the course of his time in the series, with the song even calling him the messiah, or "chosen one" basically.

Cell and the Cell Jrs all look pretty terrified. In fact one of them is so terrified it actually drops Krillin and flies off, truly believing that Gohan would waste his own friend just to win.

And I think terrified is an exaggeration when describing Gohan on Namek. He was uneasy but that's about it. Basically the exact same reaction of all the Z gang at the Cell Games minus Goku.

Even if Goku was changed a bit it doesn't compare to how much Gohan does and the consequences of it. Again he went from a boyscout to sadistic, vengeful, and outright ignoring his fathers orders. The key difference is Goku would never have listened to King Kai to begin with, while Gohan would never disrespect his father in any way. And that Goku was satisfied with winning and didn't indulge in needless torture.

[ABED]

Even though there are similarities with Goku being a little overwhelmed at first after turning SSJ, his age and battle experience are what makes the difference. He is enraged at first, but gains his composure pretty quickly. Gohan has never felt this kind of power so that combined with being enraged, it doesn't make for a good combo. Still, he's still the only hope the world has, so I find the music fitting. I don't see this as un-Gohan like as much as it's Gohan in a new context.

[90sDBZ]

Even though there are similarities with Goku being a little overwhelmed at first after turning SSJ, his age and battle experience are what makes the difference. He is enraged at first, but gains his composure pretty quickly. Gohan has never felt this kind of power so that combined with being enraged, it doesn't make for a good combo. Still, he's still the only hope the world has, so I find the music fitting. I don't see this as un-Gohan like as much as it's Gohan in a new context.

So you're saying the fact that Gohan is the last hope is enough to make his current intentions of revenge and immediate actions irrelevant? Because it's just as easy to say that Goku was the last hope on Namek so therefore his intentions were irrelevant.