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Are there any things that Toriyama-san said Dragon Ball related you wish he never said? I have two things
1. Tenshinhan is alien ancestor, thats why he have third eye - Dragon Ball world is completely different from ours, there was no need for such explanation, plus, it made me feel like jab at human fighters (It was before Tenshinhan pathetic return in Super )
2. Goku have elements of "poison". I always liked Goku as little childish and naive, but ready to take action when bad guy hurt his friends. I dont like Goku being jerk who love fighting even if it means to sacrifice everyone, and i feel like thats image of Goku Toriyama have, and i dont like it
Again, that is my personal opinion
Last edited by coola on Thu Apr 25, 2019 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The main thing that comes to mind for me is the whole new Boo origin story, though that's mostly because nothing's really come of it to try and actually make it make any sense or fit in the greater context of the world. If something was actually done with that, then maybe I could accept it a little better, but as things stand now, I just kinda-sorta remember it in the back of my head every now and then.
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I think the worst thing he’s said was about Majin Boo’s origin. It creates a plothole because the manga and anime both claim that Bibidi created Boo, and nothing ever hints at that being wrong. So when Toriyama says “oh he actually existed since the beginning of time,” it doesn’t make sense. Why would Babidi say his father created him if he found him instead? Did Bibidi think he created Boo when he found him? How does that even happen? And to make it more confusing, according to another late Toriyama interview, Babidi is more of a doppelganger of Bibidi instead of being a normal child, so he should know these things for sure.
Another one would be the whole S Cells thing that came out recently, mainly because it doesn’t mean anything. He basically said that they have to be really strong to transform in a convoluted and “Star Wars midichlorians” way. It’s useless lore that didn’t need to be said.
Super saiyan god makes no sense and has no purpose to exist.
Hakaiahins and Kaioshins have a cosmic purpose. But why should this one random alien race happen to have a transformation that puts them into a godly tier.
Hit Freeza Jiren getting that strong w.o god ki yet Goku needing it to be on their level.
The implication being if they got it Goku would be old news . which is antithetical to the shonen work hard and achieve ethic.
Super saiyans being basically a master race compared to humans, even if they train as hard seems anti aspirational and anti shonen and generally mean spirited, borderline racist...
-#17's and #18's names are Lapis and Lazuli
-Beerus imprisoned Old Kai in Z-sword
-Beerus ordered Frieza to kill saiyans
-Potara fusion has time limit (i'm not sure if it was his idea as Vegito Blue didn't come from him)
-Frieza never trained before
-S cells...
-Cell can regenerate as long as his core isn't damaged (it led to huge plothole that even Cell couldn't explain)
"I will concede that your feelings are worthy of the mightiest of Saiyans. However, there is more to my power than just this. Before you die, I will show it to you. This is the difference in power, between the primitive Saiyans and the evolved Tsufruians." ~Baby Vegeta
I hate his explanations for Kaioshins because he gave two completely different accounts. Please correct me if I’m wrong.
1. Kaioshins are part of the core people race who are born from the Life Tree. Regular fruit bears core people who will become Kaios, and Kaioshins core people are born from the extremely rare golden fruit. Rotten fruit bears Makaioshins and they go straight to the Demon Realm.
2. Kaioshins grow in the world of the Kaioshins like a plant once one dies.
My problem with #1 is that while it explains when East Kaioshin has been alone for so long, it doesn’t explain why Zamasu didn’t go to the Demon Realm if he’s so evil.
My problem with #2 is that it doesn’t explain why Kaioshin has been alone for so long.
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TobyS wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:22 am
Super saiyan god makes no sense and has no purpose to exist.
Hakaiahins and Kaioshins have a cosmic purpose. But why should this one random alien race happen to have a transformation that puts them into a godly tier.
Hit Freeza Jiren getting that strong w.o god ki yet Goku needing it to be on their level.
The implication being if they got it Goku would be old news . which is antithetical to the shonen work hard and achieve ethic.
Super saiyans being basically a master race compared to humans, even if they train as hard seems anti aspirational and anti shonen and generally mean spirited, borderline racist...
1. SSG doesn't contradict anything.
2. God ki was never said to have anything to do with raw power or even potential in all cases.
3. Shonen anime/manga has always valued natural talent over hard work (just like real life/nature does). Literally every shonen and even non-shonen anime/manga heroes that are portrayed as super powerful & talented in their worlds are the way that are due to their natural gifts (with hard work being only at best a secondary cause, if it even factors at all)
The entire point of hard work/training is to reach your full potential (which is different for everyone).
And even in Early DB, Goku was portrayed as being naturally superior to everyone else in the story. Z merely gave a legit reason why.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.
Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.
1. The stupid "28 planets with intelligent life" claim.
2. The details about the Saiyans views of family & friends.
3. The whole "poison" thing with Goku.
4. Cell can regenerate as long as his core isn't damaged (the dub handled this better).
5. Anything from DB Minus.
6. Goku never kissing Chichi.
Last edited by ruler9871 on Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.
Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.
sunsetshimmer wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:41 pm
-Frieza never trained before
This was actually implied in the original manga (and outright stated in the Daizenshuu).
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.
Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.
sunsetshimmer wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:41 pm
-Frieza never trained before
This was actually implied in the original manga (and outright stated in the Daizenshuu).
Yea but it's more about entire "he never trained before so in 4 months of beating Dodoria tier soldier he surpassess SSJ, SSJ2, SSJ3, SSJG and SSJB" thing that RoF/DBS tried to tell us
"I will concede that your feelings are worthy of the mightiest of Saiyans. However, there is more to my power than just this. Before you die, I will show it to you. This is the difference in power, between the primitive Saiyans and the evolved Tsufruians." ~Baby Vegeta
Travis Touchdown wrote: Sat Apr 27, 2019 11:32 amit doesn’t explain why Zamasu didn’t go to the Demon Realm if he’s so evil.
Because they're born evil and so they are sent straight to the Demon Realm. If Zamasu wasn't sent, then the only logical conclusion is that he was born like a regular Kaio and only became evil by observing humanity. At any rate, this is something that should have been explained in the series indeed, it would finally have a mention of Makaio and Makaioshin properly... But nope, they preferred to waste yet another opportunity.
It's the only retcon regarding Dragon Ball's story and characters that I can't stand.
Stuff like the S-Cells, only 28 planets in Universe 7 having life on them, Beerus plotting to wipe out the Saiyans before Freeza, Majin Boo existing since the beginning of time, and origins of Kaioshins are indeed quite dumb revisions, but they don't actively take away any significant and unique themes within Dragon Ball, while also damaging the character writing of established and already well written characters. Dragon Ball pulls off both those things, and somehow managed to do it in only 16 pages.
Seriously... FUCK Dragon Ball Minus and everything it stands for.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
TobyS wrote: Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:22 am
Super saiyan god makes no sense and has no purpose to exist.
Hakaiahins and Kaioshins have a cosmic purpose. But why should this one random alien race happen to have a transformation that puts them into a godly tier.
Hit Freeza Jiren getting that strong w.o god ki yet Goku needing it to be on their level.
The implication being if they got it Goku would be old news . which is antithetical to the shonen work hard and achieve ethic.
Super saiyans being basically a master race compared to humans, even if they train as hard seems anti aspirational and anti shonen and generally mean spirited, borderline racist...
1. SSG doesn't contradict anything.
2. God ki was never said to have anything to do with raw power or even potential in all cases.
3. Shonen anime/manga has always valued natural talent over hard work (just like real life/nature does). Literally every shonen and even non-shonen anime/manga heroes that are portrayed as super powerful & talented in their worlds are the way that are due to their natural gifts (with hard work being only at best a secondary cause, if it even factors at all)
The entire point of hard work/training is to reach your full potential (which is different for everyone).
And even in Early DB, Goku was portrayed as being naturally superior to everyone else in the story. Z merely gave a legit reason why.
So you're saying that Kai had this God Ki all this time but we're now just figuring out about it when it would've been important for Buu Arc?
Buu also was gonna destroy everything and was considered a universe threat but no God of Destruction???
Why no name drops on this ki or any of the gods before hand?
You know, I really thought about it and I can't think of anything that he's specifically stated. I've just come to accept the story as it is. I mean, given the sheer workload Toriyama had during the manga's original run (freelance illustration, one-shot stories, designing all of the characters for the Dragon Quest series) I'm amazed the story was even half as coherent as it was.
The only story element I never liked was Saiyans being inherently evil because I've never liked the "evil race" trope. It's just so uninteresting. But that was pretty much disregarded over time and now we know that not all of them were evil.
Was Tien as an alien him? I'd say that's the worst, for not only diminishing the mystical angle of the character, but for further kicking the boot into the idea that humans are worthless next to aliens. Like, of course Tien is stronger than most normal humans, he's part alien! Get out of here with that.
Weirdly enough, I don't mind S-Cells as much because the Saiyans were already introduced as a sci-fi concept. Like, S-Cells and how he described them could have easily fit into the original run alongside things like the great ape transformation being caused by "Blutz waves". If you had done that at any point with Tien being an alien however, it wouldn't have fit in, even back in the day.
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