Why all the hoopla about S-Cells?

[jjgp1112]

The topic has become a source of controversy since Akira Toriyama revealed it, drawing comparisons to Midi-chlorians from Star Wars. But really when you look at it, it doesn't introduce anything really new or changes anything about the series - it takes everything we see about Super Saiyans and presents a logical explantion for why they all happen. It explains Goku's "calm, quiet heart" thing, and it explains why Goten and Trunks were able to pull it off as kids, confirming a long-standing fan theory that they inherited it from their fathers.

I've seen some say that, like Midi-chlorians, it cheapens the mysticism of the Super Saiyan with science. But is it cheapening Super Saiyan any more than the series proper did itself? The Super Saiyan was supposed to be this legendary form, only achieved once in a thousand years. Goku did, and a bunch other immediately followed. The Super Saiyan Bargain Sale made it clear that the Super Saiyan isn't some unique thing only a chosen few Saiyans can pull off, but that it's just a genetic quirk that any Saiyan can do if they get strong enough. There was no mysticism to ruin. Just my two cents.

[Lord Frieza]

I actually agree with you. The magic of super Saiyan was pretty much gone after Vegeta gain the form. Trunks could have been explained away as being a saiyan from a different era, post the death of Goku, but once Vegeta it's nothing unique and it looses it luster with each character that gains it. Then the kids start getting the power a ridicules age, which in itself hints at it being biological over magical. Trunks and Goten can transform because they were conceived by people who were or were close to becoming Super Saiyans.

S-Cells are just an explanation for what was already a common if unexplained phenomenon in the series. I will say it could have been done a bit better but really it's doing zero harm in a post Buu saga Dragon Ball.

[Grimlock]

Trunks and Goten can transform because they were conceived by people who were or were close to becoming Super Saiyans.

Where did you take that from?

[Lord Frieza]

Trunks and Goten can transform because they were conceived by people who were or were close to becoming Super Saiyans.

Where did you take that from?

Logical deduction based on the events depicted in the manga, with the only outlier for the theory being Future Trunks who didn't obtain the form until he was older. But based on everything else and looking at Gohan and his development, it's the most logical answer.

Edit: And jjgp1112 jus got ride of what I thought might have been a problem. Should have realise my mistake but then I have been drinking today.

EDIT 2: Sorry this post had a bit of a dickish edge to it Grimlock. I'm in a slightly more snarky mood at the moment due to alcohol but thats no excuse for rudess.

[jjgp1112]

Trunks and Goten can transform because they were conceived by people who were or were close to becoming Super Saiyans.

Where did you take that from?

Toriyama said Goku and Vegeta had a ton of S-Cells when they conceived Goten and Trunks, and the boys inherited them. Goku had long been a Super Saiyan, and Vegeta was close plus being on Earth had calmed his spirit just enough.

Going off what Lord Frieza said above, Vegeta in Trunks' timeline was probably way further behind the Super Saiyan curve since he didn't have the urgency of the Android threat.

[Grimlock]

I don't think it's quite that "logical". When I read it, I took that what made it possible for Goten and Trunks to achieve the form was that they inherited a lot of S-Cells, yes, but it has nothing to do with the fact that Goku and Vegeta were able to transform. Toriyama also doesn't make that connection.

With that said, I think that even if Goku and Vegeta weren't able to transform, Goten and Trunks probably would. Because S-Cells might not be necessarily connected with that transformation, they both would still inherit S-Cells and, on top with Earth's gentle environment, they would become Super Saiyan quite easy nonetheless.

But okay, assuming you guys are correct, I have to ask: shouldn't Yamoshi's descendants, if he had them, be able to transform eventually? Thus already throwing all of the mysticism about the transformation out of the window from the beginning?

[Lord Frieza]

I don't think it's quite that "logical". When I read it, I took that what made it possible for Goten and Trunks to achieve the form was that they inherited a lot of S-Cells, yes, but it has nothing to do with the fact that Goku and Vegeta were able to transform. Toriyama also doesn't make that connection.

With that said, I think that even if Goku and Vegeta weren't able to transform, Goten and Trunks probably would. Because S-Cells might not be necessarily connected with that transformation, they both would still inherit S-Cells and, on top with Earth's gentle environment, they would become Super Saiyan quite easy nonetheless.

Ok I think I didn't understand your point and I agree with you. Though Toriyama doesn't make the connection, he doesn't go into detail of how S-cells work post transformation or how they are linked to the other SS forms if I remember correctly.

But at the end of the day we're both following the same path to a point and I cannot say your wrong about your conclusions.

But okay, assuming you guys are correct, I have to ask: shouldn't Yamoshi's descendants, if he had them, be able to transform eventually? Thus already throwing all of the mysticism about the transformation out of the window from the beginning?

Good question.

I put this down to the Universe 7 saiyans loss of Sadala. While we don't know the exact events that lead their home world's destruction, the event could have had a very drastic hit in the saiyans population. Given how violent the most Vegeta saiyans are, is probable that Yamoshi's blood line as well as the more calm saiyans were whipped out, with only traces of the bloodline and s-cells being carried over by the more violent saiyans who were less equipped to make use of them and more then likely evolved to have less of them given that the genetic stock favoured violent personalities.

The Universe 6 saiyans in many ways display the society you describe. Cabba, Califla and Kale all likely have more s-cells when compared to your Universe 7 average saiyan. Possibly so do most U6 Saiyan to, however due to some unknown event in their past the knowledge of Super Siyan was lost or never discovered to begin with. It's hard to say since we know so little about U6 saiyans and their past.

[Yasai9001]

To be honest, despite how much people dislike about the concept of S-cells, the way Toriyama explains it makes perfect sense - all of it.

[Matches Malone]

Because it goes against the main theme of the entire original story, hard work is the key to success. By introducing this concept, Toriyama is basically saying that Goku and his Saiyan friends didn't achieve this legendary status through hard work like we originally thought, they were just genetically superior to other Saiyans. That's the complete opposite message DB was trying to send to its readers/viewers back in the day.

I know some will bring up Goten and Trunks reaching it early and easily, and I won't argue with that, it was a bad plot point. Those 2 never should've gotten Ssj as inexperienced as they were. With that said, I don't find it nearly as offensive for the simple fact that neither were that strong despite having it, at least in the bigger picture. Goten couldn't fly despite being a Ssj, and it took one hit from Vegeta to make Trunks cry. Toriyama made it clear that despite having the form, they were nowhere near their experienced relatives, a far cry from the Mary Sues we got from U6.

Logical deduction based on the events depicted in the manga, with the only outlier for the theory being Future Trunks who didn't obtain the form until he was older.

Future Trunks reaching Ssj was never shown in the manga, that was an exclusive to the TV special. We don't know how old he was when he reached it within the manga.

[Lord Frieza]

Logical deduction based on the events depicted in the manga, with the only outlier for the theory being Future Trunks who didn't obtain the form until he was older.

Future Trunks reaching Ssj was never shown in the manga, that was an exclusive to the TV special. We don't know how old he was when he reached it within the manga.

Also jjgp112 pointed out after my post, Vegeta would have trained harder in anticipation for the androids, which could have been a contributing factor and could explain the anime’s inconsistencies.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Because it goes against the main theme of the entire original story, hard work is the key to success. By introducing this concept, Toriyama is basically saying that Goku and his Saiyan friends didn't achieve this legendary status through hard work like we originally thought, they were just genetically superior to other Saiyans. That's the complete opposite message DB was trying to send to its readers/viewers back in the day.

I don't think this is the message Toriyama is sending by adding 'S-Cells' into the mix. At no point is Goku's hard work taken away from him, because it can't be: we see him working himself almost to death on the trip to Namek, for instance; we know his absurd level of dedication to push his own limits through the whole story; we are likewise told about Vegeta enduring a "training from hell" in trying to obtain Super Saiyan himself (though in and of itself, that fails). None of that is taken away here. It is presumed.

Rather, I think it adds an extra layer in an ironic, thematic way even for Goku: it's not really genetic for him, or simply the product of hard work, but also something he finds within himself - his own gentle spirit. Toriyama adds the quirk of saying that despite all that we know of how hard it actually was, the form, in a weird way, "came easy" for Goku because of his own personal strengths. This isn't a contradiction of what we've seen in the original run, because Goku talks about his own gentle heart as a prerequisite to achieve the form even in the fight with Freeza.

Rather, the addition of 'S-Cells' simply serves to concretise this by underscoring the point that the Saiyan obsession with finding strength through combat just isn't enough: a Saiyan can fight and fight and fight some more and endure unbelievable harshness, but their own personal viciousness that makes them 'strong' in an obvious (yet ultimately petty) way stands in the way of them becoming truly strong like Goku manages to: his own soul makes "easy" what the most 'hard-working' (yet typical, cold-hearted) Saiyan will find virtually impossible. And even when people like Vegeta break through this simply by redefining 'hard work', it still doesn't get them the same results because they come at it with a poverty of spirit.

Personally, I like that addition. It ties things together well.

[blacksymbiote]

It suggests pure saiyans have an easier time transforming. Broly was anything but gentle yet his SSJ form puts him on par with their god forms and he had no trouble getting to it. Likewise, Vegeta got it at a time he was still mostly selfish. Nothing about that adds up. Then there's the idea increasing power increases s-cell count so why even have them?

[Kataphrut]

The obvious comparison everyone makes is with midichlorians in Star Wars. But the difference is that while those seem to come purely down to being lucky enough to be born with them, S Cells are "earned" in a sense that they form in Saiyans with a gentle disposition. It's just the "pure heart" explanation being given a scientific explanation. And you know, I don't think the story ever really needed that, but given it's probably just something he blurted out in an interview, it's not worth getting upset about.

[Tai Lung]

Because it goes against the main theme of the entire original story, hard work is the key to success. By introducing this concept, Toriyama is basically saying that Goku and his Saiyan friends didn't achieve this legendary status through hard work like we originally thought, they were just genetically superior to other Saiyans. That's the complete opposite message DB was trying to send to its readers/viewers back in the day.

I know some will bring up Goten and Trunks reaching it early and easily, and I won't argue with that, it was a bad plot point. Those 2 never should've gotten Ssj as inexperienced as they were. With that said, I don't find it nearly as offensive for the simple fact that neither were that strong despite having it, at least in the bigger picture. Goten couldn't fly despite being a Ssj, and it took one hit from Vegeta to make Trunks cry. Toriyama made it clear that despite having the form, they were nowhere near their experienced relatives, a far cry from the Mary Sues we got from U6.

that's quite false and hypocritical ...
goten and trunks were already stronger than goku and vegeta in the android saga
18 trembled in fear from an attack by ssj trunks demonstrating his overall superiority ..
Piccolo was intimidated by the power of both
they also face cell jr
None of them ever trained for it. They were born with that power without anyone teaching them to transform themselves.
children lived in times of peace

the saiyans of 6 at least needs to they teach them ... and they are older than the children besides being on a planet at war

[NeoZ Duwang]

it doesn't introduce anything really new or changes anything about the series - it takes everything we see about Super Saiyans and presents a logical explantion for why they all happen. It explains Goku's "calm, quiet heart" thing, and it explains why Goten and Trunks were able to pull it off as kids, confirming a long-standing fan theory that they inherited it from their fathers.

That's the point, it doesn't really change anything, so what's the point of even mentioning it? It just explains something that didn't need to be explained, they're monkey people who can turn their hair gold to get stronger, why and how does each of them get that transformation? Well, it doesn't matter, because it works, for me and for many

[jjgp1112]

it doesn't introduce anything really new or changes anything about the series - it takes everything we see about Super Saiyans and presents a logical explantion for why they all happen. It explains Goku's "calm, quiet heart" thing, and it explains why Goten and Trunks were able to pull it off as kids, confirming a long-standing fan theory that they inherited it from their fathers.

That's the point, it doesn't really change anything, so what's the point of even mentioning it? It just explains something that didn't need to be explained, they're monkey people who can turn their hair gold to get stronger, why and how does each of them get that transformation? Well, it doesn't matter, because it works, for me and for many

Well yeah, it's completely nonessential information - that's also my point. It doesn't add anything...but it doesn't lessen anything either. In serving no purpose, it does no harm at all. The reason it's controversial is because it supposedly ruins something.

[Cursed Lemon]

It's dumb. lol