Why Mastered SSB Goku is stronger than Ultra Ego Vegeta.

[TBMx]

Ultra Ego was fighting the one eyed , weaker Granolah when Vegeta was newly transformed and relatively fresh.

His vision started blurring and he almost passed out after just taking about 5 attacks and one energy barrage.

MSSB Goku was tired and yet took a similar amount of attacks from 2 eyed full potential unlocked Granolah and his eyesght didnt blur and he didnt hold his head in pain and almost pass out.

Goku wanted Vegeta to fight last chapter because it was his turn to take the senzu as Goku already had one.

None of this is any surprise, as Angel training and angel techniques are and have always been superior to Hakaishin' s.

Some have said its because Vegeta wasnt truly callous. Well he tried to blow up the planet, assaulted Goku twice for helping him, and gave up on life, his family, everyone he knows. Thats very callous and unfeeling.

And as he has that earring, he completed his Hakai training to a degree that satisfied Beerus.

So essentially, Vegeta going his own way has led to what I thought it would and what I said it would.

[Hulk10]

I'm not so sure you are correct. Vegeta deliberate took damage to reach greater heights and in doing so let himself get more damaged than necessary. Kakarot did not allow himself to take more damage than necessary.

[Goku9001]

Not really. UE Vegeta took a barbaric approach and sustained significant damage to the point where the blood loss caused his vision to blur. Vegeta essentially was in a much weaker state whereas Granola had become considerably stronger and was battling at peak performance. Goku only intervened once Granolah's stamina had deteriorated and was panting profusely.

The best PSSB + UI Goku could do was defend against Granola whereas UE Vegeta, after having been unable to maintain the form just a minute ago, was still capable of landing hits against Granola and forcing him into a stalemate. If PSSB + UI Goku was relative to Granola and above UE Vegeta, then that already invalidates Goku's statement where he implicitly concedes that Granola was the strongest in the universe as he was capable of battling both him and Vegeta.

Consider this, SSJBE Vegeta is already stronger than UI Omen Goku. PSSB + UI Goku cannot be as powerful as UI Omen Goku because UI Omen not only provides Ultra Instinct as well, but it also gives him a much higher speed and power boost which is shown through his battle against Saganbo and Moro. UE Vegeta is much stronger than SSJBE Vegeta, so there's no way PSSB + UI Goku could be stronger than UE Vegeta.

[TobyS]

Also the Granolah who thought Blue Goku the most recent time was tired from fighting Vegeta before it so it's not appules to appules here.

[picc]

Not really. UE Vegeta took a barbaric approach and sustained significant damage to the point where the blood loss caused his vision to blur. Vegeta essentially was in a much weaker state whereas Granola had become considerably stronger and was battling at peak performance. Goku only intervened once Granolah's stamina had deteriorated and was panting profusely.

The best PSSB + UI Goku could do was defend against Granola whereas UE Vegeta, after having been unable to maintain the form just a minute ago, was still capable of landing hits against Granola and forcing him into a stalemate. If PSSB + UI Goku was relative to Granola and above UE Vegeta, then that already invalidates Goku's statement where he implicitly concedes that Granola was the strongest in the universe as he was capable of battling both him and Vegeta.

Consider this, SSJBE Vegeta is already stronger than UI Omen Goku. PSSB + UI Goku cannot be as powerful as UI Omen Goku because UI Omen not only provides Ultra Instinct as well, but it also gives him a much higher speed and power boost which is shown through his battle against Saganbo and Moro. UE Vegeta is much stronger than SSJBE Vegeta, so there's no way PSSB + UI Goku could be stronger than UE Vegeta.

All this is true.

However, it doesn't seem like UE Vegeta is actually THAT much stronger than blue evolved Vegeta. Vegeta was competitive (though still weaker) with Granola during their first round. He then transformed into UE, and began beating Granola, yes, but really not by much.

Usually when a transformation takes place mid-battle, we see the transformed fighter on a completely different level from before (Perfect Cell vs Vegeta, SSJ2 Gohan vs Cell, UIO Goku vs Jiren, etc.). UE Vegeta was winning, but Granola was still very much competitive with him. And then of course, turned the fight around relatively quickly.

If Granola was a 10, SSJBE Vegeta was around an 8 or 9 by the end of their fight. Then UE Vegeta was around a 12. Pretty tame compared to what we're used to with mid-fight transformations.

This could also just speak to how strong SSJBE had become though. I don't believe it was stronger than Omen during the Moro arc. But by the Granola fight, its pretty indisputably so.

[Thani]

Honestly, if Granolah was a 10, than UE Vegeta couldn't be more than 10, as well. Their fight had more to do with Granolah not being acquainted with his own power than Vegeta being actually stronger.

Indeed, we see Granolah adjusting to his power and flipping the tables yet again. And then completely overwhelming Vegeta's Sphere of Destruction with his energy arrow after unlocking more of his power.

As far as it seems, Granny, UE Vegeta and UI Goku might very well be all on the same ballpark - with Granolah edging out because he still outfought and outlasted both Goku and Vegeta, despite fighting them nonstop.

[picc]

Yes, Granola spent most of the start of the UE fight being surprised moreso than anything. UE was still stronger, as evidenced by Vegeta getting through his shield with moderate effort, and just narratively, it makes sense. But it wasn't a big gap at all.

The way I see it is

Evolved Granola > UE Vegeta > Granola > MUI Goku > SSBE Vegeta

With the gaps between each of them relatively minuscule compared to prior, similar situations in Super/Z. The way MUI Goku effortlessly thrashed Granola's clone is how I would have expected UE Vegeta vs Granola to go, but it wasn't anywhere close to that.

Granola has to be slightly stronger than MUI Goku, as the wish demands it. UE Vegeta is slightly stronger than Granola, as seen in battle. Evolved Granola is somewhere above everyone.

[Goku9001]

All this is true.

However, it doesn't seem like UE Vegeta is actually THAT much stronger than blue evolved Vegeta. Vegeta was competitive (though still weaker) with Granola during their first round. He then transformed into UE, and began beating Granola, yes, but really not by much.

Usually when a transformation takes place mid-battle, we see the transformed fighter on a completely different level from before (Perfect Cell vs Vegeta, SSJ2 Gohan vs Cell, UIO Goku vs Jiren, etc.). UE Vegeta was winning, but Granola was still very much competitive with him. And then of course, turned the fight around relatively quickly.

If Granola was a 10, SSJBE Vegeta was around an 8 or 9 by the end of their fight. Then UE Vegeta was around a 12. Pretty tame compared to what we're used to with mid-fight transformations.

This could also just speak to how strong SSJBE had become though. I don't believe it was stronger than Omen during the Moro arc. But by the Granola fight, its pretty indisputably so.

Yeah, I would definitely agree with all of that.

SSJBE Vegeta seemed rather close to UI Omen Goku during the Moro arc, but by the time of the Granola arc, SSJBE Vegeta seemed to be much stronger given how well he was doing against Granola in general. UE Vegeta then surpassed Granola, but it definitely didn't seem to be as impactful as most power-ups given how Granola was consistently recovering from Vegeta's attacks.

I think SSJBE Vegeta being an 8 while UE Vegeta was a 12 is pretty accurate.

[picc]

UE Vegeta, Granola, and MUI Goku are all probably within a stone's throw of each other. UE has to have a slight edge over MUI at this point, but the way AT operates (liking Goku to be at least equal to Vegeta) I foresee a shadow-powerup for Goku or the upcoming fights to raise him to UE's level.

[Thani]

UE Vegeta, Granola, and MUI Goku are all probably within a stone's throw of each other. UE has to have a slight edge over MUI at this point, but the way AT operates (liking Goku to be at least equal to Vegeta) I foresee a shadow-powerup for Goku or the upcoming fights to raise him to UE's level.

IMO there's no problem with UE Vegeta being stronger than UI Goku. Raw power is not UI's gimmick, after all. As long as the state's speed and reflexes can keep Goku from being hit, while still being able to damage Vegeta, they should still be on equal grounds.

Ergo, Vegeta could beat Goku with one decisive blow, but have a very hard time to actually hit him. Likewise, Goku could take forever to take Vegeta out, but he can keep up and gradually grinding his way to victory thanks to UI's reflexes and speed, but otherwise lose the moment his form falters before he could secure the win.

Goku has to beat Vegeta before his form falters, while Vegeta have to outlast Goku and make him waste his stamina while trying to beat him with a decisive blow. I think this can work nicely in their dynamic.

[picc]

UE Vegeta, Granola, and MUI Goku are all probably within a stone's throw of each other. UE has to have a slight edge over MUI at this point, but the way AT operates (liking Goku to be at least equal to Vegeta) I foresee a shadow-powerup for Goku or the upcoming fights to raise him to UE's level.

IMO there's no problem with UE Vegeta being stronger than UI Goku. Raw power is not UI's gimmick, after all. As long as the state's speed and reflexes can keep Goku from being hit, while still being able to damage Vegeta, they should still be on equal grounds.

Ergo, Vegeta could beat Goku with one decisive blow, but have a very hard time to actually hit him. Likewise, Goku could take forever to take Vegeta out, but he can keep up and gradually grinding his way to victory thanks to UI's reflexes and speed, but otherwise lose the moment his form falters before he could secure the win.

Goku has to beat Vegeta before his form falters, while Vegeta have to outlast Goku and make him waste his stamina while trying to beat him with a decisive blow. I think this can work nicely in their dynamic.

Yeah, definitely. UE probably has a higher power level than MUI, but I could see the fight going either way as a result of Vegeta willingly taking damage and Goku automatically avoiding it.

When they finally get to fight it out definitively (two arcs and 300 chapters from now), it'll be a really interesting dynamic to see play out during the course of a battle.

[KentMan]

Hard to say really he did put a good fight against Granolah with SSB. I could chalk it up to Goku not knowing Granolah abilities. That’s why he was at a disadvantage.