Dragon Ball and Centrism disguised as "A Desire for works to stop being political"

[Cure Dragon 255]

Sorry for once again breaking my promise to not make more than one thread per month but unlike my infamous "Dragon Ball and racism" this one has an actual point to it since SO GOSH DARN many mistake (or pretend) a work is only political when its a message ONESELF doesnt like. And so many threads have been derailed over this topic that I went "Enough Is Enough!° and just cut to the chase. So many threads have been derailed to be about this topic so now it finally has its own official place on the forum.

A lot of anime fans, and media commentators in general, seem to have this misconception of politics as a binary system. To them "politics" in art can only be "there's no deeper meaning or message it's apolitical" or "Captain Planet" beating you over the head with a message. (This isn't directed at anyone in this forum conversation.) When in reality if someone complains about a piece of art being "political" like they're a YouTube centrist they really just don't agree with the message being presented, but don't want to admit it. (Which is their right, but I wish more people would own up and admit to it.)
Even something as simple as the hair color of Super Saiyans was a product of the external politics of creating a weekly manga. Toriyama claimed he made it golden blonde to save time that he or his assistant would have to spend inking the hair black so they could have a more efficient work schedule. Like you said it impacts every aspect of someone's work whether it's within the text itself or not.

[//i]

[VegettoEX]

What exactly is your proposed topic (beyond what little we can glean from the thread title?) What do you have to say about it yourself? What context can you share about it? Why is it important to you?

[Cure Dragon 255]

What exactly is your proposed topic (beyond what little we can glean from the thread title?) What do you have to say about it yourself? What context can you share about it? Why is it important to you?

To be honest this was made because an anti vaxxer derailed a thread I made and I just got tired of the only thread I made for the month being derailed with their bad faith rhethoric.

But if I was asked to input something myself, this post would be pretty much it.

A lot of anime fans, and media commentators in general, seem to have this misconception of politics as a binary system. To them "politics" in art can only be "there's no deeper meaning or message it's apolitical" or "Captain Planet" beating you over the head with a message. (This isn't directed at anyone in this forum conversation.) When in reality if someone complains about a piece of art being "political" like they're a YouTube centrist they really just don't agree with the message being presented, but don't want to admit it. (Which is their right, but I wish more people would own up and admit to it.)
Even something as simple as the hair color of Super Saiyans was a product of the external politics of creating a weekly manga. Toriyama claimed he made it golden blonde to save time that he or his assistant would have to spend inking the hair black so they could have a more efficient work schedule. Like you said it impacts every aspect of someone's work whether it's within the text itself or not.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

I don't think Toriyama intended for Dragon Ball to have any political undertones whether that be left wing, centrist or right, he only wanted to tell a story kids, particularly young boys would find entertaining.

Serious stories were never Toriyama's style, he was always first and foremost a gag mangaka. Hell I don't think he even expected the series would remain loved by adults like most of us, especially decades after he first started the manga. It's just a happy accident this series transcended its original intended demographic by appealing to adults who will naturally find more depth than a child (not saying kids are not intelligent, many are but their worldviews are more simplistic).

Freeza and his army can of course be seen as fascist as can the Red Ribbon Army, but I don't think Toriyama was making a statement about land sharks or anything, moreso to present them as a challenge for Goku to overcome and become stronger. I'd also imagine Toriyama's intention with presenting the Freeza forces actions as being vile, cruel and unjustified was more in a common sense sort of way than to educate his readers about why what they do is wrong.

[Jord]

Manga and entertainment should stay away as far from politics as they can. We don't want another situation like the Death Note, which featured a sudden appearance by President Trump.

[90sDBZ]

DB has always avoided getting political, and that's part of what makes it so timeless and accessible.

It's good because it focuses on telling a good story period. Its never once come across as preachy. If it did it would no longer be DB.

All the worth while messages come across organically through the characters and their actions. It never feels forced. Frieza is clearly a bad guy who needs to be stopped, for example. And Goku's hard work and courage are inspirational, and can encourage anyone to better themselves.

[MasenkoHA]

Iy, but I don't think Toriyama was making a statement about land sharks or anything, moreso to present them as a challenge for Goku to overcome and become stronger

From there, the enemy characters rapidly began to escalate.
Having become the strongest on the Earth, Goku and co. had also beat the Saiyans who came from outside of Earth and then they went out into the universe. I came up with Freeza around the time of the Bubble2, and the land shark was the worst person of all. So I made him the #1 land shark in the universe. But merely escalating the enemies was a pain, so I brought out the Ginyu Special-Squad. My son really loved sentai3 stuff, and I always watched it with him. Well, I brought that in. It’s put out by Toei, same as the Dragon Ball Z anime. (laughs)

He 100 percent was making a statement about land sharks

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... interview/

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

He 100 percent was making a statement about land sharks

Sure he mentions them within the context of the time he was writing, but ultimately that's not the message Toriyama was hoping for his readers to get. As 90sDBZ said his storytelling approach was very much "bad guys are bad because that's common sense", not "bad guys are bad because (insert deep philosophical point about why doing such and such is evil)".

I'm not saying Dragon Ball isn't deep, it certainly has some meaningful messages but they are more positive things that become apparent through life experience as we grow up and relate things back to the series.

I'm glad Dragon Ball isn't preachy, as someone that leans very strongly left even I think we have too much politics in the world today. Having entertainment that tells simple but no less profound messages is refreshing.

[MasenkoHA]

He 100 percent was making a statement about land sharks

Sure he mentions them within the context of the time he was writing, but ultimately that's not the message Toriyama was hoping for his readers to get. As 90sDBZ said his storytelling approach was very much "bad guys are bad because that's common sense", not "bad guys are bad because (insert deep philosophical point about why doing such and such is evil)". .

What.

Toriyama: Land Sharks were the worst sort of person during the Japanese Economic Bubble when I wrote the story in 1990 so I made the big bad villain a Land Shark


You: Yeah but he wasn't saying anything or making any sort of message.



????

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

He's talking about the context surrounding the times he was writing Dragon Ball, yes it may have influenced him and it is worthy of academic study but Toriyama was writing primarily for young boys who he didn't want to read that much into it. If a kid saw Freeza as a land shark it was from the influence of the media or their parents, not Dragon Ball.

[JulieYBM]

He's talking about the context surrounding the times he was writing Dragon Ball, yes it may have influenced him and it is worthy of academic study but Toriyama was writing primarily for young boys who he didn't want to read that much into it. If a kid saw Freeza as a land shark it was from the influence of the media or their parents, not Dragon Ball.

If a kid saw 'people hoarding land and extorting resources from people as bad, that's the influence of their parents', well, yeah, that's typically where we learn right from wrong. That doesn't stop the a work of fiction from re-enforcing the idea that landsharks are bad, and thus being a political message.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

That's fair, and I do agree with what Kunzait_83 said that political messages are unavoidable, because we inevitably all have to stand for something and know right from wrong. My point was that Toriyama did not set out to make that be a kid's interpretation while their reading the manga. We know because he always laughed in interviews he didn't take these things seriously once the baseline morals were established.

[MasenkoHA]

, yes it may have influenced him

May have.

He straight up said it did.

. If a kid saw Freeza as a land shark it was from the influence of the media or their parents, not Dragon Ball.

"If a kid watched or read X-Men and saw that discriminating against people for the way they were born is wrong that is from the influence of the media or their parents. The story intentionally writing about how discrimination and bigotry is wrong is not making any sort of political message about discrimination and bigotry."

[Cure Dragon 255]

Finally this thread has started in earnest and I love Masenko Ha's posts.

[90sDBZ]

To be fair, the fact that Frieza is a genocidal maniac kind of overshadows the landshark thing.

Him conquering planets is a big part of his character, but it largely happens off screen. We actually see him killing innocent people regularly, and taking pleasure out if it.

We hope for his downfall primarily because he's a killer. Him profiting at the expense of others is secondary.

[Vorige Waffe]

Even something as simple as the hair color of Super Saiyans was a product of the external politics of creating a weekly manga. Toriyama claimed he made it golden blonde to save time that he or his assistant would have to spend inking the hair black so they could have a more efficient work schedule. Like you said it impacts every aspect of someone's work whether it's within the text itself or not.

This is so disrespectful, immature, and flat out stupid. You literally are given an explanation for why something in Dragon Ball is the way it is, but instead of accepting that, you have to construe it as meaning something else because.... why? That Dragon Ball has to be political? That it has to be "deep"? You're trying to squeeze out the meaning of words of something that's already been explained. And what makes it genuinely disrespectful is that you're trying to psychoanalyze an author who is now dead and can no longer expand on what he's said or speak for himself.

Let Toriyama, his work, and what he's said about his work, rest in peace.

[Tian]

Even something as simple as the hair color of Super Saiyans was a product of the external politics of creating a weekly manga. Toriyama claimed he made it golden blonde to save time that he or his assistant would have to spend inking the hair black so they could have a more efficient work schedule. Like you said it impacts every aspect of someone's work whether it's within the text itself or not.

I'm aware this isn't your post, so the following is not directed at you:

But I've got to somewhat agree with Vorige's post that this is overthinking. I mean, politics are always on our lives, but our lives aren't always on politics.

What Toriyama and his assistant did isn't really an example of politics but preferences and time saving "tricks" to meet the deadlines.

Or are we going to say that Toriyama didn't like to draw battles in the night or in the cities as a result of politics instead of his personal artistic preferences?

[GhostEmperorX]

It's probably helpful to mention that the real point of contention for most when they speak about stuff like this is whether or not there's shoehorned propaganda of any kind in any era (like most US media tends to be, honestly), not necessarily whether it has anything to do with "politics" or not.

[VegettoEX]

I'm aware this isn't your post, so the following is not directed at you:

But I've got to somewhat agree with Vorige's post that this is overthinking. I mean, politics are always on our lives, but our lives aren't always on politics.

What Toriyama and his assistant did isn't really an example of politics but preferences and time saving "tricks" to meet the deadlines.

Or are we going to say that Toriyama didn't like to draw battles in the night or in the cities as a result of politics instead of his personal artistic preferences?

Two things can be true at the same time:

Toriyama can both want to draw things simply so as to make the work easier on himself and his assistant...

Fights in town are rough… everyone gradually got stronger, and if they fought in town, they’d have to destroy buildings, right? So, when I drew towns, it was when I planned on destroying them later. I could draw them because it was a given that I’d destroy them. If it took too much time for my kid assistant, it meant that next time I’d have to draw it myself. So, I’d want to destroy it so soon that I couldn’t help it. (laughs)

...and -- in this specific case of Battle of Gods and him rekajiggering the entire setup and plot of that film -- he can make that same decision, and told the various staff about it and why, because of real-life events and the lens of how its direct, primary audience would be viewing it:

But Toriyama-sensei seemed to to feel strongly that, since the [2011 Tohoku] earthquake, he wanted it to be, not a tragic story, but a positive, forward-looking story, of friendship and camaraderie, and the story took shape like that. It was like, “This truly is Dragon Ball.” What was I doing? (laughs)

I wasn’t told this directly, but Toriyama-sensei had written that “I don’t want you to have citywide panic or destruction”, so I paid special attention to that.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Yeah, how Toriyama chooses to draw characters or locations is more of a logistical and economical choice than a political one, he said something similar about Cell but that was more of a retrospective realization the finished design he wasn't satisfied with was too time consuming to draw because of all his spots.

You'd also be hard pressed to find any sort of political undertones after Freeza other than "bad biomachines trying to take over the world and another big baddie that wants to defeat Goku and friends" because Toriyama was gradually reverting back to simpler stories and ultimately returning to his gag roots in the Boo arc.