The power reset in the Android Saga

[Piramid]

There are many moments where Toriyama gives us to understand that there is a reset in the power scales of the protagonists from the beginning of the Androids arc, even since the arrival of Future Trunks.

Some references are as follows:

- To train before the appearance of the androids, Vegeta asks Dr. Brief for a gravity training room x300, only 3 times more than the one used by Goku in his training on the trip to Namek with which he achieved a power of 90,000, when Vegeta at that moment already exceeded 2 million. Even in the Bu saga we see him training with Trunks at a gravity of only 150. We can include the weights with which Goku trained in base state in the other world (equivalent to a gravity of approximately 120).

- Tien thinks of training to face the androids, despite knowing that they are much stronger than Freezer and the SSJ.

- Dr. Gero thinks that Goku couldn't be that strong and assumes that he has a power not much greater than the one he had when he faced Vegeta, and the protagonists are relieved because Gero doesn't know that Goku is capable of transforming, when the most logical thing would have been to think that Goku wouldn't have any problem fighting even in base state, since now his fighting level was perhaps 500 or 1,000 times higher. In fact, even the humans exceeded the power that Dr. Gero thought Goku would have at that moment.

- Tien says there is too much difference between them and Goku in SSJ when he transforms in front of A-19. Wasn't there already a big difference in his base state?

- Dr. Gero thinks that absorbing the energy of humans would reach sufficient power to defeat Vegeta in SSJ. (This fact is the one that makes the less sense to me and shows that for Toriyama, humans were not as significantly weaker compared to the SSJ as they should have been.)

- Goku comparing his stay in the spirit room as a child and as an adult: he admits that as a child he could only endure for a month, and now with several million base power he thinks it will still be tough.

- Tien, Yamcha, and Krilin train to fight against the androids, and then participate in the Cell Games when they shouldn't contribute anything, but Chaoz doesn't participate because Tien says he's not strong enough. Is it that they were strong enough??

- The exaggerated situation of Tien's Shin Kikoho against Semi-Perfect Cell.

(If someone comes up with more references like these, let them say please)

It's as if when writing the story, in Toriyama's mind the characters return to the same situation or similar to the one they were in, for example, when Raditz or Nappa appear.

I think he made a clean slate because he was aware that the difference between the Saiyans and the humans had become too high, especially since the start of the fight against Freezer and his unnecessary 530,000 units in his first form. The curious thing is that despite this, the humans didn't contribute much in the rest of the manga.

Finally, in an interview Toriyama says that at that time, while drawing the SSJ, this multiplied x10 the base state for him, since x50 seemed exaggerated to him.

[TobyS]

There are many moments where Toriyama gives us to understand that there is a reset in the power scales of the protagonists from the beginning of the Androids arc, even since the arrival of Future Trunks.

Some references are as follows:

- To train before the appearance of the androids, Vegeta asks Dr. Brief for a gravity training room x300, only 3 times more than the one used by Goku in his training on the trip to Namek with which he achieved a power of 90,000, when Vegeta at that moment already exceeded 2 million. Even in the Bu saga we see him training with Trunks at a gravity of only 150. We can include the weights with which Goku trained in base state in the other world (equivalent to a gravity of approximately 120).

- Tien thinks of training to face the androids, despite knowing that they are much stronger than Freezer and the SSJ.

- Dr. Gero thinks that Goku couldn't be that strong and assumes that he has a power not much greater than the one he had when he faced Vegeta, and the protagonists are relieved because Gero doesn't know that Goku is capable of transforming, when the most logical thing would have been to think that Goku wouldn't have any problem fighting even in base state, since now his fighting level was perhaps 500 or 1,000 times higher. In fact, even the humans exceeded the power that Dr. Gero thought Goku would have at that moment.

- Tien says there is too much difference between them and Goku in SSJ when he transforms in front of A-19. Wasn't there already a big difference in his base state?

- Dr. Gero thinks that absorbing the energy of humans would reach sufficient power to defeat Vegeta in SSJ. (This fact is the one that makes the less sense to me and shows that for Toriyama, humans were not as significantly weaker compared to the SSJ as they should have been.)

- Goku comparing his stay in the spirit room as a child and as an adult: he admits that as a child he could only endure for a month, and now with several million base power he thinks it will still be tough.

- Tien, Yamcha, and Krilin train to fight against the androids, and then participate in the Cell Games when they shouldn't contribute anything, but Chaoz doesn't participate because Tien says he's not strong enough. Is it that they were strong enough??

- The exaggerated situation of Tien's Shin Kikoho against Semi-Perfect Cell.

(If someone comes up with more references like these, let them say please)

It's as if when writing the story, in Toriyama's mind the characters return to the same situation or similar to the one they were in, for example, when Raditz or Nappa appear.

I think he made a clean slate because he was aware that the difference between the Saiyans and the humans had become too high, especially since the start of the fight against Freezer and his unnecessary 530,000 units in his first form. The curious thing is that despite this, the humans didn't contribute much in the rest of the manga.

Finally, in an interview Toriyama says that at that time, while drawing the SSJ, this multiplied x10 the base state for him, since x50 seemed exaggerated to him.

I think of it like a video game, where levelling up is exponentially harder, the exp curve is higher.

So Ten and stuff caught up to near Base Goku levels just because it's easier to do so.

Like in Namek Goku is level 1000 and Ten was level 100, it's easier to for Ten to get to level 900 then it is for Goku to get to like 1100.

I think training is like Drilling for oil, with the oil deposits being potential.
Goku used the space pods gravity and zenkai beam spam to snatch up a lot of shallow oil deposits, pulling way ahead of Ten.

But in the 4 years before the androids Ten can just gradually dig his up before goku finds many deeper pockets in his area.

If either of those analogies make sense.

[Piramid]

I think of it like a video game, where levelling up is exponentially harder, the exp curve is higher.

So Ten and stuff caught up to near Base Goku levels just because it's easier to do so.

Like in Namek Goku is level 1000 and Ten was level 100, it's easier to for Ten to get to level 900 then it is for Goku to get to like 1100.

I think training is like Drilling for oil, with the oil deposits being potential.
Goku used the space pods gravity and zenkai beam spam to snatch up a lot of shallow oil deposits, pulling way ahead of Ten.

But in the 4 years before the androids Ten can just gradually dig his up before goku finds many deeper pockets in his area.

If either of those analogies make sense.

I think the fact that humans are very strong and almost at the base level of the Saiyans explains some of the points in my first post, but not all of them.

PS: It wasn't necessary for you to quote my entire post to respond to me.

[Hugo Boss]

Tien, Yamcha, and Krillin's decision to train to face the androids despite knowing their strength compared to Freeza and the Saiyans can be seen as a testament to their determination and warrior spirit. Chiaotzu not participating due to being weaker underscores the realistic assessment of their capabilities. If Tien is in danger Chiaotzu would act recklessly and blow himself up, recreating the same situation against Nappa. They will intervene if needed and retreat if they are a nuisance. Tien's Shin Kikoho momentarily halting Semi-Perfect Cell is an example of strategic use of techniques and the narrative allowing for moments where skill and determination can temporarily overcome power. It’s not necessarily a reset of power scaling, but rather their resolve to contribute to the fight, regardless of the odds.

The comment about the difference in power between them and SS Goku only highlights the vast gap in strength. This doesn't negate the power levels but rather emphasizes how formidable Super Saiyan is compared to base forms and everyone else. Toriyama’s comment about the SS multiplier and absence of spoken power levels in general suggests his focus is on narrative impact and flexibility rather than rigid adherence to numbers. The audience already knows that blindly following battle powers usually ignores the inherent unpredictability of battles and what the characters can accomplish.

Additionally, the request for a gravity training room x300 by Vegeta, and later training at x150, can be attributed to more complex benefits. Vegeta might have thought that x150 gravity was optimal to focus on technique and control rather than power. Goku's training weights in the other world could be a step forward in this unique training condition, organically strengthening his entire body without submitting it to unnecessary stress translates to better results. Not to mention meditation had a significant effect on his increased strength and new forms.

This goes handily with Goku comparing his experiences in the spirit room as a child and an adult. It can be seen as an acknowledgment of the room’s extreme training conditions, regardless of his increased power level. It underlines the room's intensity and the rigorous training needed to achieve significant power gains. Later, Goku highlights that pushing his body and mind without rest won’t make him stronger than he already was, so there’s a limit to how much time they can spend there without losing what they have built.

Anyway, Dr. Gero's assumptions are based on outdated information and arrogance, not necessarily reflecting anything actually relevant for context. They emphasized his misunderstanding of the true growth of the characters’ abilities.

[miguelnuva1]

Tien leaving Chaozu being is more genius then it is given credit for. Everyone knows worse case Gohan is the only one that survives so an escape plan and leaving someone behind to help Gohan would have been creative even if that plot didn't go anywhere.

[Piramid]

Spoiler:

Tien, Yamcha, and Krillin's decision to train to face the androids despite knowing their strength compared to Freeza and the Saiyans can be seen as a testament to their determination and warrior spirit. Chiaotzu not participating due to being weaker underscores the realistic assessment of their capabilities. If Tien is in danger Chiaotzu would act recklessly and blow himself up, recreating the same situation against Nappa. They will intervene if needed and retreat if they are a nuisance. Tien's Shin Kikoho momentarily halting Semi-Perfect Cell is an example of strategic use of techniques and the narrative allowing for moments where skill and determination can temporarily overcome power. It’s not necessarily a reset of power scaling, but rather their resolve to contribute to the fight, regardless of the odds.

The comment about the difference in power between them and SS Goku only highlights the vast gap in strength. This doesn't negate the power levels but rather emphasizes how formidable Super Saiyan is compared to base forms and everyone else. Toriyama’s comment about the SS multiplier and absence of spoken power levels in general suggests his focus is on narrative impact and flexibility rather than rigid adherence to numbers. The audience already knows that blindly following battle powers usually ignores the inherent unpredictability of battles and what the characters can accomplish.

Additionally, the request for a gravity training room x300 by Vegeta, and later training at x150, can be attributed to more complex benefits. Vegeta might have thought that x150 gravity was optimal to focus on technique and control rather than power. Goku's training weights in the other world could be a step forward in this unique training condition, organically strengthening his entire body without submitting it to unnecessary stress translates to better results. Not to mention meditation had a significant effect on his increased strength and new forms.

This goes handily with Goku comparing his experiences in the spirit room as a child and an adult. It can be seen as an acknowledgment of the room’s extreme training conditions, regardless of his increased power level. It underlines the room's intensity and the rigorous training needed to achieve significant power gains. Later, Goku highlights that pushing his body and mind without rest won’t make him stronger than he already was, so there’s a limit to how much time they can spend there without losing what they have built.

Anyway, Dr. Gero's assumptions are based on outdated information and arrogance, not necessarily reflecting anything actually relevant for context. They emphasized his misunderstanding of the true growth of the characters’ abilities.

One of the points that makes the least sense to me is the following, but I see you haven't commented on it:

- Dr. Gero thinks that Goku couldn't be that strong and assumes that he has a power not much greater than the one he had when he faced Vegeta, and the protagonists are relieved because Gero doesn't know that Goku is capable of transforming, when the most logical thing would have been to think that Goku wouldn't have any problem fighting even in base state, since now his fighting level was perhaps 500 or 1,000 times higher. In fact, even the humans exceeded the power that Dr. Gero thought Goku would have at that moment.

If Goku were really much more powerful than in the fight against Frieza, then it doesn't make sense for Gero to have millions of power to ensure victory. And it also doesn't make sense for the Z warriors to think that Goku needs the SSJ to defeat someone who considers that Goku still had the same power he had when he faced Vegeta. This is a power reset for me.

[Hugo Boss]

I addressed that point in my last paragraph:

Anyway, Dr. Gero's assumptions are based on outdated information and arrogance, not necessarily reflecting anything actually relevant for context. They emphasized his misunderstanding of the true growth of the characters’ abilities.

Ignoring the obvious arrogance in claiming that Goku’s strength would only increase a bit much after his fight against Vegeta, though entirely vague, the relevant data was missed. The protagonists’ relief at Gero’s ignorance of Goku’s Super Saiyan transformation reinforces the strategic advantage they hold, since not acknowledging it suggests Gero probably underprepared. While Goku's base power had indeed increased dramatically since his fight with Vegeta, the Super Saiyan transformation still represented a substantial boost, so it’s natural that they would rely on it if the androids somehow had become stronger than Freeza, as they were told. This doesn’t imply a power reset for me.

[Piramid]

I addressed that point in my last paragraph:

Anyway, Dr. Gero's assumptions are based on outdated information and arrogance, not necessarily reflecting anything actually relevant for context. They emphasized his misunderstanding of the true growth of the characters’ abilities.

Ignoring the obvious arrogance in claiming that Goku’s strength would only increase a bit much after his fight against Vegeta, though entirely vague, the relevant data was missed. The protagonists’ relief at Gero’s ignorance of Goku’s Super Saiyan transformation reinforces the strategic advantage they hold, since not acknowledging it suggests Gero probably underprepared. While Goku's base power had indeed increased dramatically since his fight with Vegeta, the Super Saiyan transformation still represented a substantial boost, so it’s natural that they would rely on it if the androids somehow had become stronger than Freeza, as they were told. This doesn’t imply a power reset for me.

I think it should have raised red flags for everyone if an enemy says that Goku hasn’t improved much compared to when he fought Vegeta.

Anyway, maybe I didn’t explain myself well, but my point isn’t that Goku really has a PL only slightly higher than he did against Vegeta. What I mean is that, aside from the PLs, now all the characters are once again closer in power to what they really should be. They would now be in a balance similar to how they were in previous sagas, except now Goku and Vegeta have the SSJ. That’s the only way it wouldn’t seem ridiculous for characters like Tien to still be relevant. By this point, they should be as relevant as Master Roshi.

Another explanation is that now the human Z warriors have an excessive power that is close to the base power of the Saiyans. It wouldn’t be far-fetched if this were the case, since Piccolo has an enormous power increase that is difficult to justify.

I’d like to take advantage of this post and add to the list the issue of Dr. Gero’s lab door. It’s very telling that Toriyama resorted to Vegeta SSJ to blow the door away. I think Toriyama realized that the power levels of all the characters had gotten out of hand and tried to tone it down. We also have the example shortly after of Vegeta telling A18 that destroying a truck was nothing for him, and that if he wanted to, he could make the Earth disappear. Shouldn’t this be obvious to everyone? Even Yamcha or Tien should be able to destroy the Earth at this point, but now they can't even knock down a door.

[Hugo Boss]

The idea that characters like Tien remain relevant despite the immense power increases of Saiyans can be attributed to narrative balance. Toriyama often uses strategic elements and teamwork to keep all characters involved. Relevance isn't solely based on raw power but also on contributions to the story, strategy, and character development. The gap between them and the Saiyans is acknowledged, but their efforts still make them valuable allies. Capturing Dr. Gero is part of that.

The use of Super Saiyan to destroy the lab door serves to build tension and underscore the formidable nature of the androids. They didn’t want to be detected while invading the lab, so they were probably suppressing their strength, but Vegeta didn’t care. Also, his comment to No. 18 about destroying a truck and potentially the Earth serves to highlight his character. It doesn't necessarily mean other characters like Tien or Yamcha lack enough power, but rather emphasizes Vegeta is an idiot whenever he gets more powerful.

[Koitsukai]

I always assumed that the lab door was Dr Gero-reinforced. Like, by the guy that has been building fucking tough robots for a long time. It wasn't your run of the mill door, it's not the door on Earth's army base.
The Terminator android he built for the RRA was extremely durable, 20 years later, I think he would be able to build a big ass door that would be enough to keep the Z gang away, unless they used ki blasts. If he built a robot as strong as Android 16, he can build a door no superhuman -yet-earthling-fist could open.

[Magnificent Ponta]

I’d like to take advantage of this post and add to the list the issue of Dr. Gero’s lab door. It’s very telling that Toriyama resorted to Vegeta SSJ to blow the door away.

As a very brief note, I think there's a bit of misremembering going on here. Vegeta blasts Gero's lab door down in base form, not SSj.

You may be conflating/confusing this with Trunks turning SSj and blowing up the lab, which happens a little later - though of course, he is also attacking the Androids in so doing, which makes perfect sense.

[Piramid]

The point about Dr. Gero's perception is key to understanding how Toriyama might have "reset" the power scales at the beginning of the Androids arc. If we analyze the situation, Dr. Gero assumes that Goku's power isn't much greater than it was when he fought Vegeta on Earth. This is already curious since during the Frieza saga, Goku reached power levels unimaginable for any earthling, far surpassing the limits he had shown on Earth.

However, the most revealing aspect is the protagonists' reaction. They feel relieved because Dr. Gero doesn't know that Goku can transform into SSJ, which suggests that they still see that transformation as a crucial and decisive card in battle. This makes sense from a narrative perspective but raises questions when we analyze the power scales logically.

In theory, if Goku had maintained or exponentially increased his base power since the Frieza saga, he should have been able to face the Androids without needing to transform into SSJ. If Goku in his base state was hundreds of times stronger than when he fought Vegeta, any threat perceived by Dr. Gero should have been trivial for him. The fact that the characters think Goku will need to use his transformation suggests that, in Toriyama's mind, Goku's base power wasn't as overwhelmingly superior as the numbers might suggest.

Moreover, if we consider that even the humans might have surpassed the power level that Dr. Gero thought Goku had, it reinforces the idea that the power scales were readjusted. In other words, Toriyama might have decided that despite the overwhelming figures reached during the Frieza saga, the characters returned to a more manageable power level to make the Androids' threats credible and to allow the humans to remain relevant in the story.

This readjustment or "reset" is understandable from a narrative perspective, as it allows for maintaining tension and suspense in the story, something that would be difficult to achieve if Goku and the other protagonists were orders of magnitude more powerful than any new enemy they faced. Therefore, Dr. Gero's reaction and the protagonists' response can be seen as a reflection of this narrative strategy, where Toriyama prioritizes the coherence of the story and the relevance of all characters over strict consistency in the power scales.

[miguelnuva1]

Gero estimates the base strength giid fir the most part because he factored in kkx4 and Oozaru most likely.

He says Goku wouldn't get much stronger from his age but if Goku doubles his power every year from saiyan saga to Android saga and can pull off a Kaiokenx5 and Oozaru that's gets him around 6m where he should be in the Android saga in base.

[Piramid]

He says Goku wouldn't get much stronger from his age but if Goku doubles his power every year from saiyan saga to Android saga

You're saying that Gero expected Goku wouldn't get much stronger due to his age, but then you're also saying that he expected him to become more than 60 times stronger in his base form and 600 times stronger with the Oozaru form than he was in the Saiyan Saga.

Don't you see the inconsistency in this?

[miguelnuva1]

He says Goku wouldn't get much stronger from his age but if Goku doubles his power every year from saiyan saga to Android saga

You're saying that Gero expected Goku wouldn't get much stronger due to his age, but then you're also saying that he expected him to become more than 60 times stronger in his base form and 600 times stronger with the Oozaru form than he was in the Saiyan Saga.

Don't you see the inconsistency in this?

Gero doesn't expect Goku to get 20x stronger every year like he did from Raditz to Vegeta.

He knows there will be improvement just not to the same degree. Oozaru and KKx4 are also possibilities Goku can pull off so it makes sense to prepare for that.

Going off this the base saiyans and human end around where Gero estimated them which is why he was fine before SS comes out.

[Piramid]

Being conservative and assuming the multiplier was only x10, with a base power of 6 million for Goku, that would mean Gero would have a power of maybe around 30 million. At what point would it make sense for Gero to prepare with a power of 30,000,000 to face Goku, who only reached 30,000 units the last time he analyzed him, especially thinking that he wasn't going to get much stronger due to his age? It makes no sense.

And if we assume an SSJ multiplier of x50, it becomes even more ridiculous.

[miguelnuva1]

Being conservative and assuming the multiplier was only x10, with a base power of 6 million for Goku, that would mean Gero would have a power of maybe around 30 million. At what point would it make sense for Gero to prepare with a power of 30,000,000 to face Goku, who only reached 30,000 units the last time he analyzed him, especially thinking that he wasn't going to get much stronger due to his age? It makes no sense.

And if we assume an SSJ multiplier of x50, it becomes even more ridiculous.

It wasn't that Goku wouldn't get much stronger it was Gero assumed he wouldn't increase at the rate he just did anymore which was going from 416 to 8k.

Gero also included Vegeta in there as well and then simply made the Androids be overkill strength wise.

[Piramid]

It wasn't that Goku wouldn't get much stronger it was Gero assumed he wouldn't increase at the rate he just did anymore which was going from 416 to 8k.

Gero also included Vegeta in there as well and then simply made the Androids be overkill strength wise.

It's not so much that Gero assumed an increase of dozens of times (or hundreds if we consider the Kaioken) wouldn't be a significant improvement, but rather that the Z fighters believed that even though Goku had increased his base power so much, the SSJ transformation would be decisive in defeating the Androids. For such a massive power increase to be plausible, the Z fighters should have mentioned that it's possible Goku might not even need to use SSJ because Gero had stopped studying Goku a long time ago, but instead, they placed all their relief in the transformation.

By that point, Goku had already multiplied his base power more times than he did when transforming.