Imperfect Cell (No humans) vs SSJ Goku (Android saga)

Yamcha_krillin · Post by **Yamcha_krillin** » Sat Jul 19, 2008 4:42 am

Is this Cell strong enough to beat SSJ Goku?

Pain · Post by **Pain** » Sat Jul 19, 2008 4:53 am

It depends. Maybe, maybe not.

Yamcha_krillin · Post by **Yamcha_krillin** » Sat Jul 19, 2008 4:56 am

Could you explain a bit more.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sat Jul 19, 2008 4:57 am

Which form are you referring to? First Form or #17-Absorbed form?

Yamcha_krillin · Post by **Yamcha_krillin** » Sat Jul 19, 2008 5:00 am

Imperfect Cell no humans absorbed.

Pain · Post by **Pain** » Sat Jul 19, 2008 5:02 am

No. He could hurt him, but not beat him.

Kak · Post by **Kak** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:53 am

Well we never see Imperfect Cell with no humans absorbed, at least not in the normal time line, when we first see Cell in the city he has probably already absorbed most people there, and it's impossible to know how strong he was before he absorbed them. It is possible that the Cell we see when Trunks goes back to his time hasn't absorbed anyone yet, but I kind of doubt that since he thought he could defeat and absorb #17 and #18 at that point, but that doesn't matter cause that's not the Cell you're talking about and he was likely a lot weaker than the Cell in the regular time line, since the Artificial Humans were weaker.

Anyways I'm pretty sure the Imperfect Cell that we first see when Piccolo meets him in the city was at the very least as strong as pre-ROSAT SSJ Goku (which is what I think the topic creator is talking about), if not a decent bit stronger.

This is the SSJ Goku that the "new" SSJ Vegeta was speculated by Piccolo to be stronger than. SSJ Vegeta was a fair bit weaker than #18, and #18 is the same or possibly weaker than #17 (implied by a statement he makes), who is equal with Piccolo. And when Piccolo first fought Imperfect Cell in the city though he was outclassed by Piccolo, he is able to put up a semi-decent fight (possibly better than SSJ Vegeta did against #18, although Imperfect Cell didn't fight nearly as long).

This means that if you believe the comments that Piccolo makes about Vegeta being possibly stronger than Goku and #17 claiming he is the strongest being in existence (implying that he is stronger than #18), that would probably put Imperfect Cell's power level between SSJ Vegeta's and #18's, and a noticeable amount more powerful than SSJ Goku. If you don't believe those comments, and think that SSJ Goku and SSJ Vegeta are the same strength, and the same with #18 and #17 and therefore Piccolo too, that would probably mean Imperfect Cell's power level is about the same or a very tiny ammount stronger than SSJ Goku.

Either way, he is theoretically strong enough to beat pre-ROSAT SSJ Goku, and if you believe the comments Piccolo and #17 make (SSJ Goku < SSJ Vegeta [< Imperfect Cell] < #18 < #17 = Piccolo), Imperfect Cell with the power he had when you first see him would likely win the fight.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:19 am

Somewhat off topic but....

It is possible that the Cell we see when Trunks goes back to his time hasn't absorbed anyone yet, but I kind of doubt that since he thought he could defeat and absorb #17 and #18 at that point, but that doesn't matter cause that's not the Cell you're talking about and he was likely a lot weaker than the Cell in the regular time line, since the Artificial Humans were weaker.

They Cells are, in essence, the same person. The Cell we see in the past and the Cell Trunks kills in the future are identicle. The only difference being the one in the past suceeded in traveling into the past while the other got his ass killed in the future. They're the same person, just 'split' into two times the same way Goku got split into two times when Trunks went into the past to give him the heart meds.

Also, we don't know that the future Androids were weaker. We have Trunks' statement that they were, but nothing else. This would normally be enough, but when you consider that the only time we know the future Androids ever used their full power was when they killed Gohan it muddies the waters. Why would they hold back half of their power against Gohan and make a big deal of it when using their full against him, and then not hold back against Trunks and not make a big deal that they weren't?

It's my opinion Trunks was just clueless. The Androids in his time only felt weaker because they were only using half of their power without him knowing they were holding back (just as Gohan hadn't known until they told him). Thus he assumed that the Androids in the past, who weren't holding back, were simply stronger. Despite the fact nothing happened that would have caused them to be stronger.

This would also explain something later, after Trunks returns home. When he blows up 18 like it's nothing 17 doesn't freak out and get worried. He acts as though he could have done that himself, if he wanted, by telling Trunks that he'd pay for killing 18. Sure, he could just be that much stronger than her. But it's also possible that they were only at half power thus he felt his full power (at which level he could have decimated 18 as easily as Trunks did) could deal with Trunks.

Adamant · Post by **Adamant** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:02 am

Regarding Cell, it's not so much about actual strength as it is about his ability to win a battle by getting a single hit in. Goku definitly had both the power to beat Cell and the speed to avoid his attacks, but did he have the knowledge that there was a green man out there that absolutely must be killed as quick as possible, and absolutely not be given a fighting chance? What kind of fight are we talking here?

It's the same with the Jinzouningen in Trunks' future - all Cell has to do is lower his ki, sneak up on one of them when the other one isn't around, and absorb him/her from behind before he/she even know he's there.

laserkid · Post by **laserkid** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 2:08 pm

Xyex wrote:He acts as though he could have done that himself, if he wanted, by telling Trunks that he'd pay for killing 18. Sure, he could just be that much stronger than her. But it's also possible that they were only at half power thus he felt his full power (at which level he could have decimated 18 as easily as Trunks did) could deal with Trunks.

Not that I disagree with you, but if this IS the case, after Trunks put her away, why DIDN'T 17 go full power after he witnessed this? Or was that simply not enough to matter against USSJ Trunks?

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:37 pm

laserkid wrote:Not that I disagree with you, but if this IS the case, after Trunks put her away, why DIDN'T 17 go full power after he witnessed this? Or was that simply not enough to matter against USSJ Trunks?

Yeah, I figure he did. He sees 18 go boom, goes from shocked to pissed, yells "You're going to pay for that!" and then surges in at Trunks, now at his full power (we've already seen that they don't require a 'power-up sequence' when he went to full power against Gohan). It's just, at this point, it really doesn't matter. Trunks is just beyond that level to the point it makes no difference.

SSj_Rambo · Post by **SSj_Rambo** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:13 pm

The humans that Cell had absorbed must have given hum a considerable amount of power, since before absorbing them he was about as strong as Piccolo w/ Kami, and after absorbing them he was able to totally own #17 (about equal to Piccolo w/ Kami) as well as #16 who was a decent amount stronger than #17.

So Second Form Cell without the humans would be a bit weaker than if he had the humans, but not much considering the numbers we're talking about.

And since Android Saga SSj Goku and Android Saga SSj Vegeta had to have similar power levels and since we saw Android Saga SSj Vegeta get owned by #18 who is about as strong as First Form Cell w/out humans but much weaker than Second Form Cell even without absorbed humans, we know that Android Saga Goku would be beaten by Second Form Cell.

Post by **Herms** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:36 pm

SSj_Rambo wrote:The humans that Cell had absorbed must have given hum a considerable amount of power, since before absorbing them he was about as strong as Piccolo w/ Kami...

Cell was actually a lot weaker than Piccolo when they first met. Piccolo merely held back to allow Cell to absorb his arm, then got Cell to reveal his secrets with his whole "Now that I'm about to die, you might as well tell me your life story" act. After dropping the act, Piccolo says that according to his calculations his ability is still greater than Cell's, even taking into account the arm that Cell absorbed. After Cell manages to escape, Piccolo furiously says that he was caught off guard, and that he should have been able to easily defeat Cell.

Kid Trunks · Post by **Kid Trunks** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:15 pm

Herms wrote: Piccolo merely held back to allow Cell to absorb his arm, then got Cell to reveal his secrets

Are you sure he purposefully did that? I always thought Piccolo was just using a tricky situation in his favor. As in "My arm's gone. So I can't fight. Oh well, I may as well get some information out of him now".

Post by **Herms** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:30 pm

Well, Cell says that Piccolo purposefully got his arm absorbed, to learn about him. At the end of chapter 363 (DBZ 169), he says:
"Y...you...!!! [You did that] in order to get me to talk...!!!"

And then at the start of page 364 (DBZ 170):
"You thought this through...for you to have pretended to have lost your arm, and then to draw out all of my story...You're very crafty."

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:41 pm

I think both Goku and Vegeta stand a decent chance of winning against the Cell that Piccolo fought in Gingertown (assuming Cell doesn't run away or absorb them).

I personally don't think that Vegeta was as completely outclassed against #18 as a lot of people do, and Cell has one major thing missing - no infinite energy. Regeneration will make him weaker also.

Both the SSJs were stated to be brilliant fighters and could probably get around the difference in power - if Vegeta doesn't get frustrated and burn off a lot of ki in a ki-ball-storm.

Adamant · Post by **Adamant** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 4:02 pm

Kid Trunks wrote:
Herms wrote: Piccolo merely held back to allow Cell to absorb his arm, then got Cell to reveal his secrets
Are you sure he purposefully did that? I always thought Piccolo was just using a tricky situation in his favor. As in "My arm's gone. So I can't fight. Oh well, I may as well get some information out of him now".

The way I read it, Piccolo knew he was much more powerful than Cell before they even met, since he had traced Cell's ki, but Cell managed to get in a quick hit with his tail before Piccolo managed to react. Once he saw how powerful that attack was, he simply took the opportunity to pretend he was now chanceless, tricking Cell into revealing all the info he needed. Then it was just a matter of regrowing his arm and killing Cell. It didn't quite work out as planned, but at least Piccolo got the information he needed.

Kanzenshuu

Imperfect Cell (No humans) vs SSJ Goku (Android saga)

Imperfect Cell (No humans) vs SSJ Goku (Android saga)

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