Oh God, not Post-Namek PLs!

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Oh God, not Post-Namek PLs!

Post by Dayspring » Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:01 pm

YES!! The geekish, freakish, fanboy in me has decided to make a very craptacular post-Namek PL chart. It can't be used anywhere for anything other than to give a VERY general approximation of how insanely powerful the post-Namek heroes and villains are. Enjoy (hating) them!

0) Manga-derived SSJ Goku:

To start this craptacular guide off, we need a PL we can all agree on. Since a lot of people don't like the daizenshuu's SSJ Goku and Freeza PLs, we'll use one derived solely from what we see in the manga.

The largest PL we ever get is second form Freeza's of "at least 1,000,000" (<obligatory "OVER NINE HUNDRED THOUSAAAAAAAAND!!!" joke>). Vegeta is capable of seeing form four Freeza's finger blasts, which tells us his PL is also beyond 1 Million (as Piccolo is around 1 million and can't), and that Goku -before Kaioken- must also be greater than 1 million since he dwarfs Vegeta at this point. Since Freeza, at 50%, is greater than Goku who is using Kaioken x20, we know that SSJ Goku in the Namek saga must have a PL greater than 40 Million. (IE: Greater than 2x 20x 1 Million.)

Thus our starting unknown PL is a number greater than 40,000,000.

1) Android Saga:

At this point a lot of training gets done and SSJs are appearing everywhere. From common sense, we know that Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks all have PLs that make "Over 40 Million" oldschool. Meanwhile #16, #17, and #18 can toss them around like rag dolls, so we know they must also obviously be among the "Over 40 Million" crowd. Finally, after fusing with Kami, Piccolo becomes a part of that group as well by becoming as powerful as #17.

Thus:
SSJ Trunks = Over 40,000,000
SSJ Goku = Over 40,000,000
SSJ Vegeta = Over 40,000,000 ("greater than Goku")
#18 = Over 40,000,000 ("greater than Vegeta")
#17 = Over 40,000,000 ("greater than #18")
Piccolo (fused w/Kami) = Over 40,000,000 ("equal to #17")

2) Cell Sagas

We also know that Cell dwarfs 40 Million by the time he is prepared to assimilate #17 and #18. We also know that #16 is equal to strength to Cell at this point, so he also reached over 40 million. Since assimilating them does more than add their power to his own, it stands to reason that Cell's second form would have a PL greater than 80 Million, while USSJ Vegeta and Trunks also reach over 80 Million, and that Perfect Cell reaches over 120 Million, while SSJ Goku and Gohan top 80 Million and SSJ2 Gohan dwarfs Cell's 120 Million. USSJ2 Trunks also reaches the "over 120 million" range as Cell admits that Trunks is stronger than him, but it's useless power, so he doesn't defeat Cell.

En résumé:
First Form Cell = Over 40,000,000 ("greater than #17")
#16 = Over 40,000,000 ("equal to Cell")
Second Form Cell = Over 80,000,000 ("greater than #17 + First Form Cell")
USSJ Vegeta = Over 80,000,000 ("greater than Second Form Cell")
USSJ Trunks = Over 80,000,000 ("equal to USSJ Vegeta")
Perfect Cell = Over 120,000,000 ("greater than #18 + Second Form Cell")
USSJ2 Trunks = Over 120,000,000 ("greater than Perfect Cell")
SSJ Goku = Over 80,000,000 ("greater than USSJ Vegeta and Trunks")
SSJ Gohan = Over 80,000,000 ("greater than USSJ Vegeta and Trunks")
SSJ2 Gohan = Over 120,000,000 ("greater than Perfect Cell")

3) 25th Budokai:

It stands to reason that everybody other than those who retired kept training, thus inproving their skills instead of losing them. Though there's argument over whether or not Dabura was actually as strong as Cell or not, I believe he was, as SSJ Gohan was able to fight, but not defeat, Perfect Cell. Thus, I feel it's only Gohan who's weaker than Cell by the time the Budokai occurred. Since "Over 120 Million" is a figure that is completely being dwarfed by Perfect Cell, I think it's safe to say that Dabura is also over 120 Million, just not as much as Perfect Cell.

As for SSJ2 Vegeta and Goku, I think, judging by their candor, that they both exceed Perfect Cell's 120,000,000. Although we don't for sure if Goten and Trunks have surpassed Freeza by this point, I believe they have since #18 is worried about being wounded by them. Though I doubt they'd do much (if any) damage against her, it's enough to cause her to worry, which is something SSJ Vegeta couldn't do. At that, SSJ Vegeta dwarfed Freeza when he fought her, which is why I believe they exceed Freeza in strength. Meanwhile we don't know Kaioshin's strength, but know it makes Freeza look like a gnat, but is weaker than Dabura's. Thus, for safety's sake, I'll just clock him at "over 40,000,000" instead of guessing if he's weaker or stronger than Second Form Cell. Also, since Yakon drives fear into Kaioshin as well, we can safely assume that he's at least stronger than Freeza.

Summary:
Majin SSJ2 Vegeta: Over 120,000,000 ("as strong as SSJ2 Goku")
SSJ2 Goku: Over 120,000,000
Dabura: Over 120,000,000 ("About as strong as Cell")
Piccolo: Over 40,000,000
SSJ Goten: Over 40,000,000
SSJ Trunks: Over 40,000,000
Kaioshin: Over 40,000,000 ("able to kill Freeza in one hit")
Kibito: Over 40,000,000
Yakon: Over 40,000,000 (Possibly greater than Kaioshin)

4) Boo Saga:

Assimilations and Fusions are actually what make this easier to calculate since it's safe for us to assume that it's at LEAST an addition of PLs. Since Fat Boo can kick everybody's ass, we know his PL dwarfs 120 Million. From there, just add other people's PLs to his own. Since we know SSJ3 Gotenks is able to go head to head with Super Boo, we know he must have a PL over 120 Million as well, while SSJ Gotenks can be calculated as dwarfing 80 Million since we know Goten and Trunks each have 40 Million.

As for Gohan (post-Rou Kaioshin training), it is said that he's stronger than Super Boo + Piccolo, so we know his PL is over 160 Million. Thus Vegetto (at least in SSJ) must have a PL greater than double that, as it dwarfs Super Boo + Piccolo + Gohan. As for SSJ3 Goku and Kid Boo, we can only know they're stronger than 120,000,000 without getting into serious debates. Since Kibito and Kaioshin can both easily kill Freeza, Kibitshin would be at least double that strength.

Finally:
Fat (Majin) Boo: Over 120,000,000
Skinny Boo: Over 60,000,000 ("Most of Majin Boo's strength," ie: significantly higher than half)
Super Boo: Over 120,000,000 ("stronger than Fat Boo")
Piccolo: Over 40,000,000
SSJ Gotenks: Over 80,000,000 ("stronger than SSJ Goten + SSJ Trunks")
SSJ3 Gotenks:Over 120,000,000 ("about as strong as Super Boo")
Super Boo (Piccolo): Over 160,000,000 ("stronger than Super Boo + Piccolo")
Super Boo (Gotenks): Over 280,000,000 ("stronger than Super Boo + Piccolo + SSJ3 Gotenks)
"Mystic" Gohan: Over 160,000,000 ("stronger than Super Boo + Piccolo")
Super Boo (Gohan): Over 320,000,000 ("stronger than Super Boo + Gohan")
SSJ Vegetto: Over 320,000,000 ("Stronger than Super Boo + Gohan")
SSJ3 Goku: Over 120,000,000
Kid Boo: Over 120,000,000
Kibitoshin: Over 80,000,000 ("Stronger than Kibito + Kaioshin")


Now to explain why the daizenshuu didn't even try this:

The daizenshuu tried to explain Goku's pre-kaioken PL as being 3,000,000, and his SSJ PL (something greater than 40x 3 mil) as being 150,000,000. Replace all the "Over 40,000,000" with "Over 150,000,000" and you'll quickly end up with PLs in the Billions.



You may now commence either drooling or mocking my guide. :P
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Post by DBHighDefinition » Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:24 pm

Probably the most logical post-Namek PL guide i've ever seen...
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Post by Rocketman » Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:45 pm

I argue against Trunks being that strong in the Android Saga. Vegeta with a broken arm was fighting better than Trunks was.
JulieYBM wrote:Except...in the Freeza battle Son's SSj is 150,000,000 so we know it's far higher than 40 million.
Someone didn't read the OP! *shuns*
Last edited by Rocketman on Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by JulieYBM » Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:50 pm

Except...in the Freeza battle Son's SSj is 150,000,000 so we know it's far higher than 40 million.

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Post by caejones » Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:27 pm

JulieYBM wrote:Except...in the Freeza battle Son's SSj is 150,000,000 so we know it's far higher than 40 million.
I think he acknowledged this, but opted to go with what the manga gives to avoid starting another "Was the daizenshuu wrong?" argument.

I'm not sure where Kibito's power was hinted at. :?
I'd argue that since slacker SSJ2Gohan's power was enough to half fill Buu's revival-meter, that Fat Buu was at least twice Gohan's max at that point, but one could just as easily argue that the energy to revive Buu has nothing to do with his battle power.
(That, and we can only guess at how much Gohan would have fallen behind after Cell. So I guess the "greater than perfect Cell" answer is as good as any.).

I also tend to think that Goku's comment on Buu losing at least a third of his power when Gotenks split inside of him tends to suggest a relationship with regards to fusion, Buu, Goten, Trunks and Piccolo... but I don't know if said vague numberage was in the original, and algebraing that out is rather pointless. :(
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Post by Chibi Mystic Gohan » Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:07 pm

In the Cell arc, Vegeta was freaking out about "Super Saiyan Full Power" Goku's power, when he only used half of his full power. Therefore, his full power ought to be at least twice as strong as Vegeta's was. Also, I highly doubt that "USSJ2" Trunks's power was higher than Cell's full power (as well as Super Saiyan Goku and Gohan's power). He did say that Trunks's power was higher than his own, but he powered up a few times after that (and even shocked Trunks himself).

Great post, though. I just think that the Boo arc battle powers would be a lot higher than these "bare minimum" levels you've thought up.

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Post by Dayspring » Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:11 pm

Chibi Mystic Gohan wrote:In the Cell arc, Vegeta was freaking out about "Super Saiyan Full Power" Goku's power, when he only used half of his full power. Therefore, his full power ought to be at least twice as strong as Vegeta's was. Also, I highly doubt that "USSJ2" Trunks's power was higher than Cell's full power (as well as Super Saiyan Goku and Gohan's power). He did say that Trunks's power was higher than his own, but he powered up a few times after that (and even shocked Trunks himself).

Great post, though. I just think that the Boo arc battle powers would be a lot higher than these "bare minimum" levels you've thought up.
Oooh! Good point with the 1/2 FP Goku vs Vegeta! But I'm too lazy to go back and edit since it means, as you point out, that I need to greatly revise the Boo arc, too. **gonk**

Yeah, the post is more a "PLs can't possibly be lower than this!" guide, than an actual PL guide.
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Re: Oh God, not Post-Namek PLs!

Post by SSj_Rambo » Wed Oct 22, 2008 12:13 am

Dayspring wrote:Kaioshin: Over 40,000,000 ("able to kill Freeza in one hit")
I thought that Kaioshin said that Buu was able to kill Freeza with a single blow and to him that was a sign of tremendous power; much more than he had.

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Re: Oh God, not Post-Namek PLs!

Post by Dayspring » Wed Oct 22, 2008 12:15 am

SSj_Rambo wrote:
Dayspring wrote:Kaioshin: Over 40,000,000 ("able to kill Freeza in one hit")
I thought that Kaioshin said that Buu was able to kill Freeza with a single blow and to him that was a sign of tremendous power; much more than he had.
Eh? I'm pretty sure Kaioshin said that all the Kaioshins have the power to destroy Freeza in one blow, but that none of them stood a chance against Boo.
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Post by Chibi Mystic Gohan » Wed Oct 22, 2008 1:48 am

Dayspring's right, it was the Kaiôshin that could defeat Freeza with a single attack.

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Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:27 pm

A very unique idea, and a good list as well.
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Post by Yamcha_krillin » Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:26 pm

I wont' say that Kibito is in the "over 40,000,000 crowd" just because he can't even budge the Z-sword.

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Post by Dayspring » Thu Oct 23, 2008 4:10 pm

Yamcha_krillin wrote:I wont' say that Kibito is in the "over 40,000,000 crowd" just because he can't even budge the Z-sword.
Neither could any other Kaioshin, all of whom can defeat Freeza in a single blow.
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Post by Yamcha_krillin » Fri Oct 24, 2008 4:53 am

IIRC Kibito is not a Kaioshin.

Base Gohan was abel to swing around the Z-sword but Kibito can't even budge it.

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Post by Rocketman » Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:05 am

Can we actually trust anything Supreme Kai says about strength? I mean, sure, no Kai could lift the Z Sword, since it's still there.

But why should we trust him in saying 'all the Kais could kill Freeza with a single blow'?

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Post by Chibi Mystic Gohan » Sat Oct 25, 2008 3:02 am

Rocketman wrote:But why should we trust him in saying 'all the Kais could kill Freeza with a single blow'?
Because the author wrote that line with the intent to show us how powerful the Kaiôshin were.

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Post by Yamcha_krillin » Sat Oct 25, 2008 4:53 am

We definitly can.

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Post by ItsAllGood » Sat Oct 25, 2008 8:30 am

But, wasn't the transformation to SSJ treated as an exponential increase, rather than a multiplication?

I cant for the life of me remember the exact details, only that it was a vague off-hand remark was made by Vegeta at one stage I believe.

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Post by Herms » Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:36 am

I don't remember anything like that ever said in the Japanese manga or anime.
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Post by Rocketman » Sat Oct 25, 2008 11:58 am

ItsAllGood wrote:I cant for the life of me remember the exact details, only that it was a vague off-hand remark was made by Vegeta at one stage I believe.
Sounds like something said vs 19, but I checked my manga and Vegeta's only line regarding strength is "We Saiyans can't be reduced to numbers".

He does comment on how ferocity increases while in SSJ, and later when going to challenge 17 and 18 he says "and since I'm a Saiyan prince, I should be substantially more powerful!" compared to Goku.

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