Recoome, Burter and Jeice

[Satan-Sama]

I've always been led to believe that in terms of weakest to strongest amongst these three it goes: Burter, Jeice and then Recoome. With Burter being the fastest of the group, but weakest in terms of brute strength and Recoome, being the strongest in terms of brute strength; which leaves Jeice both strong and speedy, but not as fast as Burter or as strong as Recoome, but right in the middle.

Is this true or has it been stated that this is not the case and Recoome is not the strongest?

(Please excuse my Funimation spellings...)

[Herms]

Kuririn says Batta and Jheeze have about the same amount of ki as Recoome, so I think they're all basically even. I know Greg Werner's character guide described their respective strengths like you said, but I don't know if that's best on anything other than Batta being said to be the fastest in the universe and Recoome being big. I'm pretty sure nothing about their respective strengths was said the manga other than the thing about Batta's speed.

[Rocketman]

The only thing mentioned is Krillin and Gohan saying that they're as strong as Recoome. So, if there is a difference in strength, it's not much.

[Bussani]

They may have the same ki, but be skilled at using them in different ways. So yeah, overall the same, just with their stats spread out in different ways?

[kusakun004]

I think that's right. I believe FUNi's DBZ site said that Jeice was a balance of strength and speed, but then again it's FUNi and they had Dr. Gero the mastermind of the Red Ribbon.

[Saiyan-Professor]

They may have the same ki, but be skilled at using them in different ways. So yeah, overall the same, just with their stats spread out in different ways?

Vegeta said during his fight with Kewi that when one's combat strength grows their speed also. So how does one explain Butta, Ultra Super Saiyan 2 and Si Xing Long (Nuova Shenron)? Butta was dead even with Jheece but Butta was supposedly faster than the rest of the Ginyu Tokusentai. Ultra Super 2 was stronger than Kanzentai Cell was but Kanzentai Cell was faster. Super Saiyan 4 Kakarrot was supposed to be stronger than Si Xing Long yet; Kakarrot himself said that Si Xing Long was faster on a number of occasions. How do we reconcile all these discrepancies?

[SSJ2bardock]

They may have the same ki, but be skilled at using them in different ways. So yeah, overall the same, just with their stats spread out in different ways?

Vegeta said during his fight with Kewi that when one's combat strength grows their speed also. So how does one explain Butta, Ultra Super Saiyan 2 and Si Xing Long (Nuova Shenron)? Butta was dead even with Jheece but Butta was supposedly faster than the rest of the Ginyu Tokusentai. Ultra Super 2 was stronger than Kanzentai Cell was but Kanzentai Cell was faster. Super Saiyan 4 Kakarrot was supposed to be stronger than Si Xing Long yet; Kakarrot himself said that Si Xing Long was faster on a number of occasions. How do we reconcile all these discrepancies?

This also contradicts the whole speed=power thing. You can't throw a punch faster than someone and have less power than them.

[Bussani]

They may have the same ki, but be skilled at using them in different ways. So yeah, overall the same, just with their stats spread out in different ways?

Vegeta said during his fight with Kewi that when one's combat strength grows their speed also. So how does one explain Butta, Ultra Super Saiyan 2 and Si Xing Long (Nuova Shenron)? Butta was dead even with Jheece but Butta was supposedly faster than the rest of the Ginyu Tokusentai. Ultra Super 2 was stronger than Kanzentai Cell was but Kanzentai Cell was faster. Super Saiyan 4 Kakarrot was supposed to be stronger than Si Xing Long yet; Kakarrot himself said that Si Xing Long was faster on a number of occasions. How do we reconcile all these discrepancies?

I thought you'd bring that up. I think what Vegeta says is true for the most part. If Butta was to train and increase his power, his speed and strength would both go up. But it's likely that his speed would always be better than his strength, if you see what I mean. He's just naturally faster.

Here's some made up numbers. Let's say both characters are 'level 10' and thus have 10 points. One might put 8 into strength and 2 into speed, while another might have 5 in speed and 5 in strength and another might have 8 in speed and only 2 in strength. I don't know whether it's just part of their nature, normal for their particular race or something they've consciously trained towards though.

Things like USSJ upset the balance though. By adding so much muscle mass without actually transforming the frame (as Broli or Oozaru do) they lose speed simply because the muscles are getting in the way. Still, if they focused all their ki into flight they would probably still be able to get some good speed up.

This is unrelated, but I've started thinking about Broli. Some people think that SSJ4 and Golden Oozaru are the 'true' legendary Super Saiyajin. If Broli is a mutant, is it possible that he's somehow tapping into part of the Oozaru transformation without a tail or brute waves? That might explain how his whole frame/structure grows rather than just the muscles and it would make him closer to the status of 'legendary'.

[Satan-Sama]

I think that's right. I believe FUNi's DBZ site said that Jeice was a balance of strength and speed, but then again it's FUNi and they had Dr. Gero the mastermind of the Red Ribbon.

Yeah and I hate how Funimation never bothered clearing this up in their Orange Brick set. I was appalled to hear the same little bullshit with Dr. Gero being the head honcho of the Red Ribbon Army and basically Commander Red is referred to as "Dr. Gero." And don't forget that Tao Pai Pai is still a general.

It's just fucking laziness on Funimation's part for not patching that up and especially since they didn't even bother redubbing that Red Ribbon flashback as told by Master Roshi, as the Android Saga had been dubbed prior to the dubbing of Dragonball. I realize its a minor problem but it is very inconsistent. For the most part I am a fan of the Funimation product but that discrepancy was just really fucking stupid.

[Saiyan-Professor]

They may have the same ki, but be skilled at using them in different ways. So yeah, overall the same, just with their stats spread out in different ways?

Vegeta said during his fight with Kewi that when one's combat strength grows their speed also. So how does one explain Butta, Ultra Super Saiyan 2 and Si Xing Long (Nuova Shenron)? Butta was dead even with Jheece but Butta was supposedly faster than the rest of the Ginyu Tokusentai. Ultra Super 2 was stronger than Kanzentai Cell was but Kanzentai Cell was faster. Super Saiyan 4 Kakarrot was supposed to be stronger than Si Xing Long yet; Kakarrot himself said that Si Xing Long was faster on a number of occasions. How do we reconcile all these discrepancies?

I thought you'd bring that up. I think what Vegeta says is true for the most part. If Butta was to train and increase his power, his speed and strength would both go up. But it's likely that his speed would always be better than his strength, if you see what I mean. He's just naturally faster.

Here's some made up numbers. Let's say both characters are 'level 10' and thus have 10 points. One might put 8 into strength and 2 into speed, while another might have 5 in speed and 5 in strength and another might have 8 in speed and only 2 in strength. I don't know whether it's just part of their nature, normal for their particular race or something they've consciously trained towards though.

Things like USSJ upset the balance though. By adding so much muscle mass without actually transforming the frame (as Broli or Oozaru do) they lose speed simply because the muscles are getting in the way. Still, if they focused all their ki into flight they would probably still be able to get some good speed up.

This is unrelated, but I've started thinking about Broli. Some people think that SSJ4 and Golden Oozaru are the 'true' legendary Super Saiyajin. If Broli is a mutant, is it possible that he's somehow tapping into part of the Oozaru transformation without a tail or brute waves? That might explain how his whole frame/structure grows rather than just the muscles and it would make him closer to the status of 'legendary'.

That makes sense by DB Sparking logic but there is nothing in the manga or anime that indicates it works that way. According to the following old post, Freeza’s 100% is the equivalent of the Ultra Super Saiyan forms. He hung in there with Super Saiyan Kakarrot for a minute before his power started waning.

…USSJ isn't truly a different form of SSJ, technically... It is, instead, the application of Wakugai Henshin to the SSJ1 form. 'Wakugai' means 'To Go Beyond The Limits' and 'Henshin' means, literally, 'To Go From One Form To Another'. One translation of 'Wakugai Henshin' could be 'Beyond Transform'. A Beyond Transform is basically just pushing one's form beyond its ordinary capabilities by using the principle of matter/energy conversion to increase muscle mass by drawing Ki energy into the body and converting it into matter. Master Roshi did this twice in Dragon Ball (once to blow out the flames on a mountain immersed in fire, a second time to 'destroy' the moon). Freeza did it when he fought SSJ Goku (he called it 100% of his full power). Trunks and Goku both did it as Super Saiyajins. Even Perfect Cell did it. Wakugai Henshin can be used by just about anyone. It increases the strength and power of whatever form someone is in at the time, but is more of an 'add-on' than a form in itself. Freeza managed to use a form of Wakugai Henshin in which rather than decreasing his speed significantly, he instead expended great amounts of energy to maintain his dexterity and movement abilities. The problem is that Freeza dragged the fight out too long, and thus ran out of energy. Remember when Goku said, "Your powerlevel is decreasing with every hit. You're not even a challenge anymore."? That's because by that point, Freeza had exhausted his Ki reserves. He could no longer supply the energy needs of his Beyond Transformation. If Freeza had went straight to 100% earlier in the battle, he might have had enough energy left to outlast Goku, or at least put up more of a fight. Trunks, on the other hand, had plenty of energy, but put too much of it into increasing his muscle mass. His powerlevel appeared to skyrocket because the sensing abilities of the Z Senshi are focused on detecting the current amount of energy present in an individual. Trunks was channeling immense amount of Ki into his body, and then storing it, giving the impression of great power, though his fighting capabilities continued to decrease. If Trunks had been closer to Cell's powerlevel to begin with he could have gotten away with a version of USSJ/Wakugai Henshin similar to Freeza's, in which he only bulked up his muscles slightly, but retained most of his agility and speed. He had more than enough Ki in reserve to sustain this form, so he could have chipped away at Cell piece by piece, until he was defeated. Instead, not being as experienced a fighter, he pumped all his energy into his strength, lowering his effectiveness…

In addition, I like your Broli idea it may indeed work.

[Bussani]

That makes sense by DB Sparking logic but there is nothing in the manga or anime that indicates it works that way. According to the following old post, Freeza’s 100% is the equivalent of the Ultra Super Saiyan forms. He hung in there with Super Saiyan Kakarrot for a minute before his power started waning.

It just makes sense to me. It seems weird to think that two people with the same level of ki would be exactly the same speed as each other. Different people are more skilled at doing different things with their ki. Plus if two people had exactly the same ki and were just as skilled at using it for speed, differences in the body would logically be a deciding factor.

As for Freeza 100%, I dunno. I do think it's basically the same thing as USSJ. Maybe, like Vegeta, Freeza found a balance between speed and power.

[Dayspring]

That makes sense by DB Sparking logic but there is nothing in the manga or anime that indicates it works that way. According to the following old post, Freeza’s 100% is the equivalent of the Ultra Super Saiyan forms. He hung in there with Super Saiyan Kakarrot for a minute before his power started waning.

It just makes sense to me. It seems weird to think that two people with the same level of ki would be exactly the same speed as each other. Different people are more skilled at doing different things with their ki. Plus if two people had exactly the same ki and were just as skilled at using it for speed, differences in the body would logically be a deciding factor.

As for Freeza 100%, I dunno. I do think it's basically the same thing as USSJ. Maybe, like Vegeta, Freeza found a balance between speed and power.

I'm going to agree with Bussani here. The stronger you get, the larger your ki/energy gets. What you do with your ki totally depends on your skill to manipulate that energy into destructive force (ki blasts), physical strength, speed, whatever. Meanwhile the USSJ levels are literally taking energy and pumping it directly into your muscle mass. Since USSJ isn't a transformation unique in-of-itself, and therefore new energy isn't being produced, it stands to reason that it some of it was diverted from some aspects of their overall strength -in at least one instance; speed.

In other words, it's like Bussani said. If SSJ = 10 Energy, then it would be 4 strength, 3 speed, 3 ki. Meanwhile USSJ is just transfering that 10 Energy from all categories and pumping almost all of it into strength.

Meanwhile that's NOT the case with Freeza 100%. At 100% he's not pumping all his energy into his muscles, he's just finally using all his energy, so he's not transfering away from speed; he's adding unused energy to his muscle strength. Going back to the 10E example: Freeza at 50% would only have 1 in strength, 1 in ki, 3 in speed, and 5 unused. At 100% he's using all 10E, possibly resulting in 5 strength, 2 ki, and 3 speed.

[Saiyan-Professor]

In Daizenshuu #7 it states concerning Super Saiyan Second Grade.

A power-up where every nerve is concentrated, sending ki throughout the body and inflating the muscles. This is capable of raising both power and speed much higher than a Super Saiya-jin.

Here it say s that their speed increases as well but on Super Saiyan Third Grade we read.

This form is capable of drawing out immense power, inflating muscles to the limit. However, this kills speed and movement becomes sluggish; on top of that, the burden on the body is also great.

Why cannot the Saiyans just divert the Ki in the manner as the Second Grade Super Saiyan to become even faster and stronger? This does not make any sense. If you have extra Ki, why do you not just add it to the pile evenly or just do like Kakarrot and Son Gohan and remain as Super Saiyans so you can utilize the extra Ki?

[Bussani]

Why cannot the Saiyans just divert the Ki in the manner as the Second Grade Super Saiyan to become even faster and stronger? This does not make any sense. If you have extra Ki, why do you not just add it to the pile evenly or just do like Kakarrot and Son Gohan and remain as Super Saiyans so you can utilize the extra Ki?

It's the muscles themselves getting in the way that makes movement difficult. But it may also be that Third Grade uses so much more ki just to maintain it, that there isn't enough left over to put into speed. If they were to divert power to speed, they might not have enough to maintain the huge muscle mass and would lose power. It's all about balance, as Vegeta knew.

[Dayspring]

Another possibility is that USSJ doesn't add as much speed as it does power, because of the muscle mass. In other words, it's time for Pseudo-numbers mark II!

1) SSJ adds Power + 10, Mass + 0. Because there's no increase in mass, Speed is also + 10.

2) USSJ adds Power + 10, Mass + 10. Because there's an increase in mass, Speed is only +5 instead of +10.

3) USSJ2 Adds Power +10, Mass +20. Because there is such a large increase in mass (SSJ + 30 Mass), Speed is lost at this point instead of experiencing any gain.

It may not even be a substancial loss, but to compete with enemies that require the power of USSJ2, chances are you also need to be faster than USSJ, whereas the result is slower. So by this point, there are too many drawbacks to the form.

[Rocketman]

Did Vegeta actually lose any speed at USSJ? I remember him easily outrunning Second Form Cell and not suffering any major drawbacks against Perfect Cell.

[Saiyan-Professor]

Another possibility is that USSJ doesn't add as much speed as it does power, because of the muscle mass. In other words, it's time for Pseudo-numbers mark II!

1) SSJ adds Power + 10, Mass + 0. Because there's no increase in mass, Speed is also + 10.

2) USSJ adds Power + 10, Mass + 10. Because there's an increase in mass, Speed is only +5 instead of +10.

3) USSJ2 Adds Power +10, Mass +20. Because there is such a large increase in mass (SSJ + 30 Mass), Speed is lost at this point instead of experiencing any gain.

It may not even be a substancial loss, but to compete with enemies that require the power of USSJ2, chances are you also need to be faster than USSJ, whereas the result is slower. So by this point, there are too many drawbacks to the form.

I guess the Sparking games got it right if we are working from a statistical model.

Did Vegeta actually lose any speed at USSJ? I remember him easily outrunning Second Form Cell and not suffering any major drawbacks against Perfect Cell.

Well my quote from Daizenshuu #7 states that Second Grade Super Saiyan (USSJ 1) adds speed but Third Grade (USSJ 2) reduces.

[Bussani]

Another possibility is that USSJ doesn't add as much speed as it does power, because of the muscle mass. In other words, it's time for Pseudo-numbers mark II!

1) SSJ adds Power + 10, Mass + 0. Because there's no increase in mass, Speed is also + 10.

2) USSJ adds Power + 10, Mass + 10. Because there's an increase in mass, Speed is only +5 instead of +10.

3) USSJ2 Adds Power +10, Mass +20. Because there is such a large increase in mass (SSJ + 30 Mass), Speed is lost at this point instead of experiencing any gain.

It may not even be a substancial loss, but to compete with enemies that require the power of USSJ2, chances are you also need to be faster than USSJ, whereas the result is slower. So by this point, there are too many drawbacks to the form.

This does make sense. It's more like they're getting left in the dust than they are losing speed they already had. Goku does say "these muscles make it hard to move" too I think.

Did Vegeta actually lose any speed at USSJ? I remember him easily outrunning Second Form Cell and not suffering any major drawbacks against Perfect Cell.

Like the Professor said, no. He never went to USSJ2 like Trunks did. I assume he knew the drawbacks and was trying to find some sort of balance between speed and power.

[Saiyan-Professor]

The next questions I have concerns Si Xing Long and Super Saiyan 4 Kakarrot. It is stated in GT that Kakarrot was stronger but Si Xing Long was faster. Could Si Xing Long eventually hurt or kill Kakarrot? If Kakarrot’s stats were high on the strength end, does strength equal power? If so, would that not mean that Si Xing Long could not kill him? Just hit him more often, I am attempting to understand the this Dragonball statistical model.

(Please do not answer it is GT)

[Bussani]

Being faster I think he could avoid being hit himself and inflict hits upon Goku. However, if Goku was a lot stronger it might not do much, like how Kuririn and Piccolo just coudn't hurt Nappa no matter what they tried.

Eventually Goku might get tired, but at the same time Si Xing Long would get tired from zipping around so much too. So it's hard to say.