Why is it so hard to make the series good post-Buu?

[Lord Beerus]

Maybe,but I'm pretty sure 99% of Goku fans like it when he turned SSj3 the first time or when Vegetto happened.

Goku also let his son's energy be stolen by Spopovich and Yamu without question, held back SSJ3 against both Majin Vegeta and Fat Boo, and left the fate of all existence on the shoulders of two rookies.
Oh and there's offering x-rated photos of his son's girlfriend then his (second) closest friend to the Elder Kaioshin while insulting his wife's figure.. . though this one is not meant to be taken literally but still.

Goku also let Piccolo and Vegeta live, gave Freeza energy to survive and gave Cell a senzu bean. Goku was never great when it came to critical decision making.

[precita]

Am I the only one who likes both the Cell and Buu saga almost equally, for completely different reasons? It seems people always try to champion one saga over the other. Its bizarre. Both have their strenghts and weaknesses.

[Michsi]

excessive transformations have been removed ...

We've gotten two new forms in less than 30 episiodes and I'm expecting at least one more.

Not exactly what I was speaking of. Gokuu and Vegeta now have but one transformation. The narrative of a battle is no longer burdened by a character having multiple transformations as it was.

Ah, I see. I still see it as another level/ form added to the saiyan CV. I never thought people were bothered by character's having several forms at their disposal , but by there always having a new one added to the "ultimate one"

[ABED]

Why does the villain have to start out with some connection to the hero? Buu might not have originally had a connection with Goku, but, by the end of the arc, Goku had been partially responsible for reviving him, and Buu had killed Goku's entire family, not to mention his planet. What more of a connection is needed?

Great point and I'm glad you say Goku was PARTIALLY responsible for reviving him. I wish Toriyama hadn't created the plot hole with SS3 and lazily tried to cover it up and ended up making Goku look like an asshole in the process, especially in light of the transformation not doing much for anyone. Any way I do agree that the bad guy doesn't need to start out with a connection to the hero. Freeza had a very tenuous connection to Goku. Yes, he destroyed Goku's race but it's not like Goku had any emotional connection to them. However, by the end, they have a very strong connection after what both do to the other.

and gave Cell a senzu bean. Goku was never great when it came to critical decision making.

It wouldn't have made any difference, so I wouldn't put it in the same ballpark as letting Piccolo live.

[Hellspawn28]

Xenoverse was a fun game and probably the best DBZ game in 10 years in my opinion. I don't think Super is that bad outside some bad animation. The show has very funny and enjoyable slice of life episodes. The show did over drag out the BOG and ROF stories, but I still take them over the Garlic Jr saga and most of GT. Super give other characters a chance to shine while GT was mainly just about Goku if you ask me.

[Zephyr]

To be completely honest, if the Buu saga was released in 2010+ and GT was never made, I would like the former even less than I do now.

Seriously, imagine anticipating a new saga after the Cell Games for over a decade--after that incredible beam struggle, Goku's death, and Gohan's transformation--only to get a saga with kid SSJs, a Gohan that doesn't train, and a quirky fat blob of a villain. I'd probably hate it, in fact. Yes, I acknowledge my bias.

Honestly, if you put a real world 15 year gap between any two story arcs of the manga, people would likely still be as dissatisfied as they are now.

Having that long to masturbate over one's own headcanon and build up expectations is a recipe for widespread disappointment regardless of the actual execution.

[JulieYBM]

Ah, I see. I still see it as another level/ form added to the saiyan CV. I never thought people were bothered by character's having several forms at their disposal , but by there always having a new one added to the "ultimate one"

It bothers me from a narrative structure standpoint. There's only so many times in a battle you can have a character say they've powered up. Now with only one transformation you only need to use that element once per battle, which is really the only good thing about Gokuu's rematch with Freeza. Gokuu is stronger than ever before in his normal form but has a transformation to fulfill the cool-factor of a mid-game game-changer.

[DBZAOTA482]

Maybe,but I'm pretty sure 99% of Goku fans like it when he turned SSj3 the first time or when Vegetto happened.

Goku also let his son's energy be stolen by Spopovich and Yamu without question, held back SSJ3 against both Majin Vegeta and Fat Boo, and left the fate of all existence on the shoulders of two rookies.
Oh and there's offering x-rated photos of his son's girlfriend then his (second) closest friend to the Elder Kaioshin while insulting his wife's figure.. . though this one is not meant to be taken literally but still.

Goku also let Piccolo and Vegeta live, gave Freeza energy to survive and gave Cell a senzu bean. Goku was never great when it came to critical decision making.

Piccolo was no real threat... Goku himself knew he was not like his father and thus made a good rival plus he had to keep him alive because of the dragon balls. Vegeta was definitely a screw-up but Goku acknowledged his mistake. Freeza was at the brink of death begging for life and was ultimately defeated. Goku wanted Gohan to defeat Cell with full confidence... giving Cell a senzu was a smart move in retrospect. He was only wrong in not telling Gohan about his plans.

[Hero]

Okay I'll bite. Why making a post-Buu saga show is difficult:

- Toriyama doesn't like how old many of the characters became in EoZ so a post-Buu show is doomed to be in the 10 year gap.

- Gohan no longer has to spotlight and is doomed to be a.... whatever he's trying to be. After all, we can't have him being on Goku's level again.

- Goten and Trunks being useless other than fusion fodder even though Gotenks is hilariously outclassed now.

- Think about it.... in the Buu Saga even a SSJ2 was nothing. Think Vegeta vs. Kid Buu. Piccolo isn't even as strong as a normal SSJ now. It's too hard for non- Goku and Vegeta characters to catch up to how absurd the post-Buu villains are (GT or Gods)

Though I did love BoG and really liked RF. Super is worse than GT for me, though. The new movies plus DB Online have been the best post-Buu things, especially Online with its time patrol, Gohan actually changing the world by writing a book on ki, and Goku and Vegeta's final fight to the death.

[Doctor.]

I'd ask why was it so hard to make the series good post-Freeza, but I digress.

To answer the topic at hand, fans are picky, who would have guessed.

Seriously, imagine anticipating a new saga after the Cell Games for over a decade--after that incredible beam struggle, Goku's death, and Gohan's transformation--only to get a saga with kid SSJs, a Gohan that doesn't train, and a quirky fat blob of a villain. I'd probably hate it, in fact. Yes, I acknowledge my bias.

Sounds like the dream, to be honest. I liked the new and improved Gohan much better.

[Lord Beerus]

Piccolo was no real threat... Goku himself knew he was not like his father and thus made a good rival plus he had to keep him alive because of the dragon balls.

There was no way they could have known that Piccolo was gonna be a threat. Hell, he outright stated in the Saiyan arc he was happy about the idea of killing Goku and still wanted to take over the world. Not to mention there were a second set of Dragon Balls to fall back on.

Freeza was at the brink of death begging for life and was ultimately defeated.

Goku giving Freeza energy was still a dumb thing to do, regardless of what state Freeza was in. I mean, the fact that Freeza survived Namek exploding and arriving on Earth before Goku did just make Goku giving Freeza energy to survive in space all the more stupid and reckless in hindsight.

Goku wanted Gohan to defeat Cell with full confidence... giving Cell a senzu was a smart move in retrospect. He was only wrong in not telling Gohan about his plans.

Goku giving Cell a senzu bean was not a smart move in any sense. There was no justification in it that at all. There was still the huge chance that Gohan would not go all out against Cell and Cell would eventually get bored and kill everyone. And if wasn't for Hercule, that would have been the case. It was total fucking luck that things panned out the way they did for Gohan at the Cell Games.

[ekrolo2]

I'd ask why was it so hard to make the series good post-Freeza, but I digress.

A combination of Toriyama's lack of planning coming back to seriously bite him in the ass and him probably getting tired of the series I imagine. The concept of the Android & Boo arcs is fine but they're done so lazily it really can't be anything else. Especially since he managed to write things relatively well by winging it for so long.

[Basaku]

Because Buu saga started the main negative trends the series is struggling with to this day

[Cipher]

While I've enjoyed plenty of post-Boo content and have quit a soft spot for GT, it's hard to deny that the Boo arc is very much in endgame mode. Many characters see their personal arcs completed before or during it, the universe is expanded to a point of logical conclusion, and in all it's hard to move forward from there in a meaningful way for a lot of the cast. The manga's ending also works much better envisioning a decade of relative boredom for Goku before it takes place.

[Lord Beerus]

I'd ask why was it so hard to make the series good post-Freeza, but I digress.

A combination of Toriyama's lack of planning coming back to seriously bite him in the ass and him probably getting tired of the series I imagine. The concept of the Android & Boo arcs is fine but they're done so lazily it really can't be anything else. Especially since he managed to write things relatively well by winging it for so long.

I'd say Toriyama's lack of planning really screwed him over in the Saiyan arc when he decided to scrap the homages to Journey To The West and opt to lazily retcon Goku's origins with it being revealed that he was an alien. Toriyama opened an almighty can of worms when he did that, and there was no way he could backtrack on it. That revelation changed Dragon Ball forever.

[Doctor.]

I'd ask why was it so hard to make the series good post-Freeza, but I digress.

A combination of Toriyama's lack of planning coming back to seriously bite him in the ass and him probably getting tired of the series I imagine. The concept of the Android & Boo arcs is fine but they're done so lazily it really can't be anything else. Especially since he managed to write things relatively well by winging it for so long.

I honestly think Super should just wing it. They're playing too by the book, like GT was. Give me a baby Super Saiyan Pan or something, wow me.

[ABED]

I'd ask why was it so hard to make the series good post-Freeza, but I digress.

A combination of Toriyama's lack of planning coming back to seriously bite him in the ass and him probably getting tired of the series I imagine. The concept of the Android & Boo arcs is fine but they're done so lazily it really can't be anything else. Especially since he managed to write things relatively well by winging it for so long.

I'd say Toriyama's lack of planning really screwed him over in the Saiyan arc when he decided to scrap the homages to Journey To The West and opt to lazily retcon Goku's origins with it being revealed that he was an alien. Toriyama opened an almighty can of worms when he did that, and there was no way he could backtrack on it. That revelation changed Dragon Ball forever.

That's not lazy. Very little of Goku's backstory was revealed so his origin didn't contradict anything I can recall.

[Basaku]

I'd say Toriyama's lack of planning really screwed him over in the Saiyan arc when he decided to scrap the homages to Journey To The West and opt to lazily retcon Goku's origins with it being revealed that he was an alien. Toriyama opened an almighty can of worms when he did that, and there was no way he could backtrack on it. That revelation changed Dragon Ball forever.

It also made him worldwide famous and financially set for life so I say it worked out quite good for him in the end

[ekrolo2]

A combination of Toriyama's lack of planning coming back to seriously bite him in the ass and him probably getting tired of the series I imagine. The concept of the Android & Boo arcs is fine but they're done so lazily it really can't be anything else. Especially since he managed to write things relatively well by winging it for so long.

I'd say Toriyama's lack of planning really screwed him over in the Saiyan arc when he decided to scrap the homages to Journey To The West and opt to lazily retcon Goku's origins with it being revealed that he was an alien. Toriyama opened an almighty can of worms when he did that, and there was no way he could backtrack on it. That revelation changed Dragon Ball forever.

I'd say this revelation opened up a whole new world of possibilities, what I dislike is how broke the mysticism of the whole franchise. Even the Kai's who're supposedly Gods don't feel like it to me, they feel more like aliens who just happen to sit at deity-like positions.

The biggest problem after Namek is that there's a distinct feeling like he's not even trying anymore. Even in the Saiyan & Freeza sagas where a lot of the tropes he'd run into the ground came about, you still felt as if some effort was being put into the writing. But in the Cell Saga, its just contrivances after contrivances that could easily have been avoided with minor adjustments. The Boo Saga, while enjoyable, also burns through as many concepts as it introduces, really letting you know he's grown sick of this shit by then.

[ABED]

its just contrivances after contrivances that could easily have been avoided with minor adjustments.

How many of them have nothing to do with timetravel. Time travel always causes logic problems.