Why is it so hard to make the series good post-Buu?

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

Cipher nailed it: the story has been told and the cast has settled. The only organic way to follow up the end of the Z era is to tell a story that uses what the end of the series gives you- don't mine old stories with nothing left to offer, mint new ones. But that story is not your typical Z-era story, so no one tries it; instead we get battles boiling down to Goku and Vegeta because that is the logical conclusion of power creep, and cop-outs like sticking everything in the ten-year gap and keeping Goten and Trunks perpetual children, because heaven forbid we expand the world!

[ekrolo2]

its just contrivances after contrivances that could easily have been avoided with minor adjustments.

How many of them have nothing to do with timetravel. Time travel always causes logic problems.

Krillin having enough feelings for #18 to destroy the remote. You can just as easily have Cell spot him from afar and blow the thing out of his hands with a blast instead of having him pull a Goku.

Piccolo wasting his light grenade on an opponent who's strength he can sense and knows is far above him when he could've just fired it at 17. Once again, Cell can just intervene and you have the same thing happen without making Piccolo look like a dumbass.

Goku not having the medicine on hand with him or giving it to Piccolo or Gohan to keep close by. Its just another device to take him out of an arc he ultimately does nothing in until the very end. By having someone keep the medicine nearby, you can have pretty much the same situation happen except no one looks like a moron.

The ROSAT always existing but never being mentioned before can easily be fixed by connecting it to King Kai and Otherworld. It would function the same way, a special room where you can train for a whole year that King Kai kept secret because it has a reputation of chewing up and spitting out fighters that enter it. You can even explain why he refuses to tell Goku about it before by having him explain that Goku wasn't simply strong enough to take it before and that stronger fighters tried and failed to stay inside.

Goku not informing Gohan about his plan. His entire scheme hinges on putting the preassure on Gohan enough to make him rage out and increase his power. This might be too dark but Goku blatantly telling him this as a way to make him nervous over the 10 day break would even make Goku's decision to restore Cell's strength with a senzu bean seem more plausible. He's intentionally stacking the odds against his son, he's being frank about it and it works better for what he has in mind.

[coola]

Well, it took over 10 years for Star Wars, to finally move past Clone Wars saga, so maybe Dragon Ball will get past post-Buu Saga/before EoZ too? For now, we have good fanfics, like Malik Dragon Ball New Age

[DBZAOTA482]

Piccolo wasting his light grenade on an opponent who's strength he can sense and knows is far above him when he could've just fired it at 17. Once again, Cell can just intervene and you have the same thing happen without making Piccolo look like a dumbass.

Piccolo had to fight all three androids so conserving his energy would be the best thing to do, plus I doubt #17 would just stand there and tank it.

Goku not having the medicine on hand with him or giving it to Piccolo or Gohan to keep close by. Its just another device to take him out of an arc he ultimately does nothing in until the very end. By having someone keep the medicine nearby, you can have pretty much the same situation happen except no one looks like a moron.

They were going to a battlefield. Carrying it there would be a bad idea.

The ROSAT always existing but never being mentioned before can easily be fixed by connecting it to King Kai and Otherworld. It would function the same way, a special room where you can train for a whole year that King Kai kept secret because it has a reputation of chewing up and spitting out fighters that enter it. You can even explain why he refuses to tell Goku about it before by having him explain that Goku wasn't simply strong enough to take it before and that stronger fighters tried and failed to stay inside.

That wouldn't change a thing.

Goku not informing Gohan about his plan. His entire scheme hinges on putting the preassure on Gohan enough to make him rage out and increase his power. This might be too dark but Goku blatantly telling him this as a way to make him nervous over the 10 day break would even make Goku's decision to restore Cell's strength with a senzu bean seem more plausible. He's intentionally stacking the odds against his son, he's being frank about it and it works better for what he has in mind.

Goku wasn't sure if he'd beat Cell or not, and he wanted the others to not worry.

[ekrolo2]

Piccolo had to fight all three androids so conserving his energy would be the best thing to do, plus I doubt #17 would just stand there and tank it.

Piccolo knows he's screwed no matter what in this situation, better to risk all he has left to prevent Cell from attaining perfection any way he can instead of wasting the one shot he has on an opponent who's power he can sense and clearly dwarfs his. He's not Freeza, he can sense Cell's power and should be smart enough to gauge whats better: firing at Cell and likely failing or firing at 17 and damaging him just enough to where he can make him useless to Cell.

Its not about him conversing energy to hopefully survive, its about him making the best out of a situation where he is most certainly going to die again.

They were going to a battlefield. Carrying it there would be a bad idea.

Not as bad as going to a battlefield without it which is what happens in the main series. Besides, they have it for years on end. Surely Bulma would be smart enough to see the sample and create backups for it should the original be destroyed.

That wouldn't change a thing.

It would make Goku look like a lot less of an idiot which is the point of my entire post. Getting the same result and not making the characters reach NuFreeza levels of stupidity. His whole idea for opting to fight instead of just killing Gero is to train, so why isn't he training properly in the ROSAT then as extra insurance.

Goku wasn't sure if he'd beat Cell or not, and he wanted the others to not worry.

Except his whole idea hinges on Gohan being stressed enough to rage out and increase his power. You can't have it both ways. Besides, him telling Gohan to keep this scheme to himself would simply add to the emotional turmoil since he can't talk to anyone about it besides his father who's a-okay with the plan already.

[Doctor.]

Except his whole idea hinges on Gohan being stressed enough to rage out and increase his power. You can't have it both ways. Besides, him telling Gohan to keep this scheme to himself would simply add to emotional turmoil since he can't talk to anyone about it besides his father who's a-okay with the plan already.

That would just make Goku a(n even bigger) dick in front of the audience and would turn his redemption at the end of the arc impossible. How would he redeem himself from toying with Gohan like that? Just tossing him in the middle of a fight for the world's safety was fine, considering he killed himself later, but playing with his son's emotions is a different thing entirely.

[ekrolo2]

Except his whole idea hinges on Gohan being stressed enough to rage out and increase his power. You can't have it both ways. Besides, him telling Gohan to keep this scheme to himself would simply add to emotional turmoil since he can't talk to anyone about it besides his father who's a-okay with the plan already.

That would just make Goku a(n even bigger) dick in front of the audience and would turn his redemption at the end of the arc impossible. How would he redeem himself from toying with Gohan like that? Just tossing him in the middle of a fight for the world's safety was fine, considering he killed himself later, but playing with his son's emotions is a different thing entirely.

He's already playing with his emotions by intentionally stacking the odds against him. His whole plan hinges on his son reaching a level of rage he himself felt on Namek if not greater. That automatically makes him a dick no matter what, even Toriyama, who usually avoids pointing out Goku's dickishness in-universe has Piccolo call him out on this.

He clearly wants the audience to see that Goku's acting poorly in this situation.

[Xeztin]

I think some are trying to turn the series into a well written novel, when in reality it's a manga/comic book. In my opinion the BOG saga should have been the only arc post Buu and in the 10 year gap. The 2nd saga could have picked up at the EOZ and started with ROF then U6 and Beyond. of course they'd need tweaking because of Uub and Pan but I agree that we have less characters to develop after Buu Saga because most the characters have been finished. I think adding new characters like Uub, Pan is definitely a plus just like it was when Beerus came along.

[precita]

Yeah, I'm really disappointed the U6 tournament doesn't take place after the end of DBZ. I can understand the Beerus and Freeza movies taking place before, but their refusal to do a time skip now makes zero sense.

[Hellspawn28]

Toriyama feels like the characters are too old at the end of DBZ. It's easier to market the show when everyone is in their prime age.

[Basaku]

Toriyama feels like the characters are too old at the end of DBZ. It's easier to market the show when everyone is in their prime age.

Bulma and Chi-Chi have 2 more wrinkles. Rest looks the same or young. I don't see what is a difference between 40 year old Goku and 50 year old Goku who look exactly the same. Neither is the traditional young hero, hasn't been for a long time. Not to mention entire new lineup of teenagers and young adults to use in marketing (Goten, Trunks, Pan, Bra, Uub, Maron etc). This Toriyama argument never made much sense

[ABED]

It needs to be said that while Goku is chronologically 50, he didn't age when he was dead. I'm fairly certain of that. He was dead for 8 years.

[precita]

Yamcha also looks much visibly older at the end of DBZ, but its not like he's really going to do anything at this point of the show.

[ABED]

Also Saiyans stay younger longer.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

It needs to be said that while Goku is chronologically 50, he didn't age when he was dead. I'm fairly certain of that. He was dead for 8 years.

Yes, but he made up one of the years with all his time in the RoSaT up through Cell. Supers manga also had him and Vegeta spend 3 years in a "new" RoSaT. If that, or at least something similar (more time in Whis' staff?), happens in the anime, then Goku is almost back to his normal age.

[DBZAOTA482]

It needs to be said that while Goku is chronologically 47, he didn't age when he was dead. I'm fairly certain of that. He was dead for 8 years.

Fix'd.

[HourglassIndigo]

Overall, the use of the word "good" is purely subjective. Some people like the newer series and movies, while others don't. I guess the better question would be why there is such a big divide on the people who like the newer stuff and those who don't.

[jjgp1112]

Toriyama feels like the characters are too old at the end of DBZ. It's easier to market the show when everyone is in their prime age.

Yeah, in all honesty that cast of characters completely ran its course and GT was already pushing it. What I'd most be interested in is a total reboot with a completely new cast, set in the distant future.

[precita]

But they already have a new younger cast they're not using:

- Pan
- Uub
- Bra
- Teenage Trunks and Goten
- Maron

They can easily have Gohan as the mentor character or what Goku was in previous series and focus on the kids. We already have a new younger cast of kids and they don't use them.

[Xeztin]

If they go past EOZ I think Goku and Vegeta will step down from their major roles though they may still be around in the series. After EOZ they can continue right after or skip thousands of years if they wanted to go that route. Don't get me wrong the story could continue with Goku and Vegeta just as GT did, but they'd really have to put in a effort to make it good. Hell, what if Toei decides they want to make a GT sequel after Super ends and expand the "side story"? Never know.