Does Goku have hidden potential?

[Captain Strawberry]

Of course Goku is a prodigy. He's a prodigy compared to his friends because he's a Saiyan, and that itself already grants him higher potential than the others. He's not a prodigy, he's the farthest thing from it, when you compare him to other members of his race, and that's why I said he's "shit" who achieved success through hard work.

I think it's not necessarily because he is a Saiyajin, he has more of a Human background. I think it's more so because of his passion.

[tasuxeda]

I think that Goku has been realising most of his hidden potential throughout his life by training and fighting, he likely still has some hidden potential that he hasn't tapped into but it likely isn't a massive amount like Gohan.

[omaro34]

Goku simply doesn't know when to give up during a fight. There might be very few exceptions to this statement, but for the vast majority of the fights throughout the series that Goku gets into, he never gives in.

That to me is more than any hidden potential can offer to a fighter.

[Saiga]

Of course Goku is a prodigy. He's a prodigy compared to his friends because he's a Saiyan, and that itself already grants him higher potential than the others. He's not a prodigy, he's the farthest thing from it, when you compare him to other members of his race, and that's why I said he's "shit" who achieved success through hard work.

Now that's just not true at all.

Chapter: 402 (DBZ 208), P10.1
Vegeta: “It drives me crazy, but I’ll admit it…Despite doing all that special training, I didn’t surpass Kakarot…Th-that bastard’s a genius…But Cell is 1 or 2 steps above even him…”

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P10.3-4, P11.2-3
Context: after Goku and Vegeta fight for a while
Goku: “Un-unbelievable…I thought I trained considerably in the afterlife…But we’re completely even…You trained more than me…”
Vegeta: “…No, that’s not it…I think I did perform more special training than you, but you’re a greater genius than I am…No matter how much time passed, this gap wouldn’t change…I realized this, when you fought with that monster Babidi sent…It was a shock…That’s why I secretly resolved myself…[ ] At the tournament, the people who knew that pair who Babidi made into his underlings said that they had become far stronger than before…I remembered that, and I thought…That if I were taken over by him too, then the gap between you and me would vanish…And I was right…”

The whole "Goku was a low quality Saiyan" thing is only ever brought up in the Saiyan arc. It's not a recurring theme and it doesn't come up again. What DOES come up again is how special Goku is, to the point where Vegeta mentions on two separate occasions what a genius he is. This is the guy who had the whole "elite vs low class mentality" in the first place. The one person who could have continued the theme has outright said Goku is the more special one.

And I'd put more stock in that when it was brought up more recently, and more than once. The idea that Goku is a hard worker who beats the elites just seems to be a fan ideal. Toriyama doesn't seem to have any interest in that any more, so Goku is the most special member of the cast.

When you compare him to the rest of the members of his race, he's number one. In fact, even in the Saiyan arc, Kaio reveals the other Saiyans are so strong because they grew up in 10x gravity environments. In only takes Goku one year in that environment to surpass all but Vegeta.

It wasn't that Goku was shit, he was raised in conditions that weren't suitable for a Saiyan. Going off Kaio's explanation, Raditz and Nappa would be much weaker if they were sent to Earth. So even in the Saiyan arc where they try to say Goku is a low class who can surpass Vegeta with hard work, he's clearly better than any other Saiyan already.

[apex_pretador]

The whole "Goku was a low quality Saiyan" thing is only ever brought up in the Saiyan arc. It's not a recurring theme and it doesn't come up again. What DOES come up again is how special Goku is, to the point where Vegeta mentions on two separate occasions what a genius he is. This is the guy who had the whole "elite vs low class mentality" in the first place. The one person who could have continued the theme has outright said Goku is the more special one.

Because goku surpassed limits of EVERY saiyan, there is no way the "low class" thing will be brought back again.

And I'd put more stock in that when it was brought up more recently, and more than once. The idea that Goku is a hard worker who beats the elites just seems to be a fan ideal. Toriyama doesn't seem to have any interest in that any more, so Goku is the most special member of the cast.

When you compare him to the rest of the members of his race, he's number one.

He is #1 but remember what it took to be no 1:

• He trains with roshi , who was a fighting genius.
  He trains with korin, a godly being
  He gets to drink divine water
  He trains with god himself
  He dies without reaching even half the power of a regular low class saiyan
  He trains in afterlife WITH his body, allowing him to break barriers & limits, with a high level god, whose training is like thousands of years worth
  He is still weaker than prince vegeta
  He trains in 100x gravity to be stronger than vegeta

In fact, even in the Saiyan arc, Kaio reveals the other Saiyans are so strong because they grew up in 10x gravity environments. In only takes Goku one year in that environment to surpass all but Vegeta.

But he was training in the afterlife. If he was training in living world in 10x gravity, he may not have surpassed nappa.
And this is after all the special training he received.

It wasn't that Goku was shit, he was raised in conditions that weren't suitable for a Saiyan. Going off Kaio's explanation, Raditz and Nappa would be much weaker if they were sent to Earth.

And if they didn't train with gohan
And if they didn't train with roshi
And if they didn't train with korin
And if they didn't drink divine water
And if they didn't train with god
AND if they never got equal (or superior) opponents like daimao, tao, tenshinhan , Ma Jr etc.

[Saiga]

No, Kaio makes it pretty clear how important the 10x gravity is for their development. Otherwise he wouldn't hype that up about his planet. If Raditz and Nappa's methods were worse than if they'd trained with Earth's masters, it would make no sense for Kaio to say "they're strong because they were raised in this gravity". He'd be saying "they were raised in this gravity, which is irrelevant because Earth's methods are better and they'd actually be even stronger if they went through that, so forget I said anything because this makes no fucking sense".

If Raditz and Nappa went through everything Goku did they'd be weaker, OTHERWISE what Kaio says just doesn't make any logical sense at all and he's a goddamn idiot.

Also, the training clearly isn't worth 1000 years and Goku doesn't get 1,000x more gains from doing it then he does with his other training.

[apex_pretador]

No, Kaio makes it pretty clear how important the 10x gravity is for their development. Otherwise he wouldn't hype that up about his planet. If Raditz and Nappa's methods were worse than if they'd trained with Earth's masters, it would make no sense for Kaio to say "they're strong because they were raised in this gravity". He'd be saying "they were raised in this gravity, which is irrelevant because Earth's methods are better and they'd actually be even stronger if they went through that, so forget I said anything because this makes no fucking sense".

If Raditz and Nappa went through everything Goku did they'd be weaker, OTHERWISE what Kaio says just doesn't make any logical sense at all and he's a goddamn idiot.

Also, the training clearly isn't worth 1000 years and Goku doesn't get 1,000x more gains from doing it then he does with his other training.

I'm not saying that raditz / nappa will be stronger than they were in canon if they were sent on earth, but that they will be well above goku's 416 if they were on earth AND received same training as goku did on earth.
And kaio's training is definitely >>> any simple , regular 10x gravity training.

[Saiga]

There's absolutely nothing to support they would be stronger than Goku's 416.

I don't think a year of Kaio's training is worth more than a lifetime of 10x gravity. Otherwise the fact that Kaio's planet has 10x gravity wouldn't be as significant as Kaio says.

[Kid Buu]

The whole "Goku was a low quality Saiyan" thing is only ever brought up in the Saiyan arc. It's not a recurring theme and it doesn't come up again.

Yeah, Toriyama is pretty inconsistent with his themes. Seems like he just shoehorned this into the Saiyan arc to make the Vegeta battle feel more special.

[ekrolo2]

The whole "Goku was a low quality Saiyan" thing is only ever brought up in the Saiyan arc. It's not a recurring theme and it doesn't come up again.

Yeah, Toriyama is pretty inconsistent with his themes. Seems like he just shoehorned this into the Saiyan arc to make the Vegeta battle feel more special.

There's little reason for it to though. The concept gets introduced by Vegeta, Goku proves that he's factually wrong and consistently keeps proving him wrong with every increase in power. There's really no need for it to keep being brought up.

[Doctor.]

The whole "Goku was a low quality Saiyan" thing is only ever brought up in the Saiyan arc. It's not a recurring theme and it doesn't come up again. What DOES come up again is how special Goku is, to the point where Vegeta mentions on two separate occasions what a genius he is. This is the guy who had the whole "elite vs low class mentality" in the first place. The one person who could have continued the theme has outright said Goku is the more special one.

And I'd put more stock in that when it was brought up more recently, and more than once. The idea that Goku is a hard worker who beats the elites just seems to be a fan ideal. Toriyama doesn't seem to have any interest in that any more, so Goku is the most special member of the cast.

When you compare him to the rest of the members of his race, he's number one. In fact, even in the Saiyan arc, Kaio reveals the other Saiyans are so strong because they grew up in 10x gravity environments. In only takes Goku one year in that environment to surpass all but Vegeta.

It wasn't that Goku was shit, he was raised in conditions that weren't suitable for a Saiyan. Going off Kaio's explanation, Raditz and Nappa would be much weaker if they were sent to Earth. So even in the Saiyan arc where they try to say Goku is a low class who can surpass Vegeta with hard work, he's clearly better than any other Saiyan already.

I interpret that more as Vegeta's inferiority complex acting up, rather than Goku actually being "special". He knows a lot about martial arts due to his hard work and training over the years, but that's about it.

[90sDBZ]

I agree with those who say the appeal of Goku's character is that he works for his strength. I love the fact that even when Gohan and Gotenks have completely surpassed him in the Buu saga, it's still clear that Goku's the more seasoned fighter. I love how he continues to train after the battle with Buu, and is implied to have surpassed Gohan by the start BoG purely from training 24/7. I also love Gohan's whole limitless potential thing, and how him getting angry can make potentially make him unstoppable, but Goku is a different kind of badass. Gohan is the Hulk while Goku is Bruce Lee.

And it's also worth mentioning how Goku remains a superior martial artist to most opponents throughout the series, even when he's outmatched in raw power. Cell even acknowledges his hand-to-hand skills during their fight. On a side note I think Tien and Piccolo could be considered the 2nd and 3rd best martial artists in the series.

[Neon Z]

Of course Goku is a prodigy. He's a prodigy compared to his friends because he's a Saiyan, and that itself already grants him higher potential than the others. He's not a prodigy, he's the farthest thing from it, when you compare him to other members of his race, and that's why I said he's "shit" who achieved success through hard work.

Now that's just not true at all.

Chapter: 402 (DBZ 208), P10.1
Vegeta: “It drives me crazy, but I’ll admit it…Despite doing all that special training, I didn’t surpass Kakarot…Th-that bastard’s a genius…But Cell is 1 or 2 steps above even him…”

Goku's boost there was due to the FP SSJ training though. Yes, it makes him a "genius" compared to Vegeta, but that's due to ingenuity as far as training goes, not having a higher natural power.

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P10.3-4, P11.2-3
Context: after Goku and Vegeta fight for a while
Goku: “Un-unbelievable…I thought I trained considerably in the afterlife…But we’re completely even…You trained more than me…”
Vegeta: “…No, that’s not it…I think I did perform more special training than you, but you’re a greater genius than I am…No matter how much time passed, this gap wouldn’t change…I realized this, when you fought with that monster Babidi sent…It was a shock…That’s why I secretly resolved myself…[ ] At the tournament, the people who knew that pair who Babidi made into his underlings said that they had become far stronger than before…I remembered that, and I thought…That if I were taken over by him too, then the gap between you and me would vanish…And I was right…”

And Vegeta eventually concludes at the end of his long speech that what keeps Goku ahead of him is his love of fighting and focusing on improving himself, rather than surpassing someone else or protecting someone. The point of that wasn't that Goku was more talented than Vegeta, but that he had the right mindset to becoming stronger, while Vegeta didn't.

And I'd put more stock in that when it was brought up more recently, and more than once. The idea that Goku is a hard worker who beats the elites just seems to be a fan ideal. Toriyama doesn't seem to have any interest in that any more, so Goku is the most special member of the cast.

That's exactly the opposite though. As far as modern material goes, Toriyama seems actually very much interested in that again for the first time since the Saiyan Saga, maybe due to using "raw natural talent" as a plot point in favor of Freeza. RoF had a line from Whis about Vegeta being the genius in comparison to Goku but being held back due to his mindset.

[DBZAOTA482]

Of course Goku is a prodigy. He's a prodigy compared to his friends because he's a Saiyan, and that itself already grants him higher potential than the others. He's not a prodigy, he's the farthest thing from it, when you compare him to other members of his race, and that's why I said he's "shit" who achieved success through hard work.

He is a prodigy. He overcame the limitations of his birth and became the strongest because of who he is.

He worked hard but he also had a knack for fighting. He's been exposed since an early age.

[MindForgedManacle]

I think there has been a confusion. I think the OP was talking about hidden potential in the vein of Gohan's hidden power, not improving oneself through training. Of course, I never felt that the series gave us many details of what exactly this hidden/latent potential stuff was, so whatevs.

[apex_pretador]

There's absolutely nothing to support they would be stronger than Goku's 416.

I don't think a year of Kaio's training is worth more than a lifetime of 10x gravity. Otherwise the fact that Kaio's planet has 10x gravity wouldn't be as significant as Kaio says.

It is significant, but not that much.

Goku goes from like what? 15? to maching a match level roshi in 8 months, & krillin was marginally below him.
Had it been raditz, it'd have gone the same, saiyans grow faster if pushed to limits.

Then karin training, he surpassed (or equaled) karin.
If it was raditz, same thing'd have happened.

He trained with, & surpassed kami, if it was raditz, wouldn't he have surpassed kami? Even yajirobe & chiatxu did it by far.

Actually, the extra potential of goku in comparison to humans can be attributed to him being saiyan, that's it. Had he been a human, he'd not surpass others by that far.
Infact raditz will have the advantage of starting point. He'd start at higher level than goku.



Remember that humans had the potential to surpass raditz by training alone.

[Kendamu]

Gohan and Goku have very similar inner-workings when it comes to what exactly makes them get stronger. For example, pretty much every Saiyan can get a rage boost or a Zenkai* or whatever. What's special about Gohan is that him being half-human somehow makes his rage boosts extra strong compared to a full-blooded Saiyan.

So, yeah, Goku totally has hidden potential power that he hasn't tapped into. That's why he's training with Beerus and Whis in the new stuff. He just doesn't get as much of a temporary boost from his emotions as Gohan does. Pretty much nobody does, really. The incredible rage boost in particular is what makes Gohan unique even among other half-Saiyan kids.




*Yay, fan terminology!

[MindForgedManacle]

Gohan and Goku have very similar inner-workings when it comes to what exactly makes them get stronger. For example, pretty much every Saiyan can get a rage boost or a Zenkai* or whatever. What's special about Gohan is that him being half-human somehow makes his rage boosts extra strong compared to a full-blooded Saiyan.

So, yeah, Goku totally has hidden potential power that he hasn't tapped into. That's why he's training with Beerus and Whis in the new stuff. He just doesn't get as much of a temporary boost from his emotions as Gohan does. Pretty much nobody does, really. The incredible rage boost in particular is what makes Gohan unique even among other half-Saiyan kids.




*Yay, fan terminology!

Pretty sure Zenkais and rage boosts are't the same thing. Gohan was the only one to show rage boosts until Vegeta ass-pulled a rage boost against Beerus. Unless I'm mistaken, Vegeta says (when Gohan attacks 2nd-form Freeza) that Gohan's rage boosts are not a Saiyan ability, or at least, not one that he had ever seen before. Though that might have been the anime.

[dbgtFO]

*Yay, fan terminology!

Pretty sure Zenkais and rage boosts are't the same thing. Gohan was the only one to show rage boosts until Vegeta ass-pulled a rage boost against Beerus. Unless I'm mistaken, Vegeta says (when Gohan attacks 2nd-form Freeza) that Gohan's rage boosts are not a Saiyan ability, or at least, not one that he had ever seen before. Though that might have been the anime.

Vegeta was just shocked at how much power Gohan had and speculated that he might be the one closest to achieving Super Saiyan.