Concerning Super 17 and Cell

[Horgus]

When I first heard about the 'Super 17' saga in GT (before actually having seen it) I had envisioned that it would play out in some way with Cell coming back and absorbing him.

The way it ended (being WAY too short and 17 really only having the 'ki absorb' gimick) left much to be desired. Does anyone else here think that that particular stretch of GT could have been concluded in a more interesting way? I do!

[chibi_goten]

I think all of GT could be done been done in a different (better) way. Then when I found out that #17 was supposed to be the ultimate creation of Dr Gero I just thought this is bull shit and stopped watching it.

[gohanku]

It destroys everything DragonBallZ built up, if 17 was the best, why didn't Gero break the seal and use 17 to kill everyone? GT sucks in plot continuity.

[Acid_Reign]

What annoyed me about that the most was the fact that 17 NEVER RELIED on the absorbed-energy model. That's what made him so much more fearsome than #19 and 20, because he could actually beat the crap out of you without needing to replenish himself like some sort of battery. (And not only that, but he was ugly. A guy with a ponytail, handkerchief, and overalls doesn't look too fearsome, Toei; sorry. Yes, even in the 90's.)

Involving Cell probably would have made for a better story, but I'm almost glad they didn't fuck with Cell because he was cool enough as it was without being retconned.

[Mr.Piccolo]

Heh, I was introduced to Super 17 via fansubs and at that time, I owned nothing GT so I'm probably the only person in 2007 in North America who thinks his character design is not only badass but he's also probably the greatest villian in DragonBall. Yes, his "saga" was short and the ending was crappy IMO, but I think if anybody else was involved it would end up even worse. What I hated the most about that was how everyone sucked against 17 especially Vegeta and a new Uub. Its almost like they made it like Gohan, Trunks, Goten, Uub, and Vegeta were all on the same level..
-Rick

[QuantumDestiny]

bah, I hate how they took #17, one of the only characters that wasn't Saiyan, made him evil and then killed him off... Just like Piccolo was USED totally for plot device and then dropped like a hot potato. Nobody used any signature attacks in GT either... it was just Goku taking energy and doing a kamehameha... There was also a lack of the colour green in the whole series.

[Kaboom]

The main reason I like the S17 arc at all was the action. It was on the scale that it should have been by the time of GT, what with Goku and S17 knocking each other across entire continents and such...

[Conan the SSJ]

bah, I hate how they took #17, one of the only characters that wasn't Saiyan, made him evil and then killed him off... Just like Piccolo was USED totally for plot device and then dropped like a hot potato. Nobody used any signature attacks in GT either... it was just Goku taking energy and doing a kamehameha... There was also a lack of the colour green in the whole series.

Some characters did use signature moves, but yeah, not nearly as often as Goku going Kamehame-Ha, Ryu-ken, or attempting a self-sacrifice. I know that Gohan used his own Kamehame-Ha attack against Super 17, which likely helped contribute to his power increase, as well as Vegeta coming up with his new Final Shine. Something that'll probably bug all of us though is Goten and Trunks suggested Fusion against Bebi-Vegeta, giving us an adult Gotenks...only for Goku to say "No". Adult Gotenks, how you could've come to be yet didn't.

Piccolo's death was a moment I actually loved in GT. It was very emotional, as we got to see that Father/Son bond of Gohan and Piccolo one more time, still present even by this later point. Also, Piccolo sacrificing himself for other planets in the universe that could fall victim to the Black-Star balls showed an extension of character development that even the end of Z hadn't touched. It's the whole Piccolo being stuck in Hell for eternity that irks me.

[QuantumDestiny]

I guess I always just remember the final Shenron battles, where everyone else got some cheap yellow ki spheres and Goku got all the good animation. GAH!! How could they take away our Gotenks and give us Gogeta .

Piccolo's death was a moment I actually loved in GT.

Yes... I did love that. I actually really liked the Funi dub for that since Piccolo actually said 'love'...

[Mr.Piccolo]

Nobody used any signature attacks in GT either... it was just Goku taking energy and doing a kamehameha...

This is me quoting from fansubs but I believe Vegeta created a new attack called the final shine attack which was like the final flash but with one hand..But yeah, that series was just horrible. I mean Chibi Goku stronger than SSj4?!

There was also a lack of the colour green in the whole series.

That was without a doubt GT's biggest mistake-no namekians. I mean we all know the best part of 'DragonBall' was its ending when Piccolo forfeits the match and gives Goku a senzu and the best part of Z was obviously when Piccolo single handedly powered the spirit bomb to kill Buu. Oh and IMO, Piccolo dying only mattered against Nappa. The GT one felt out of place, especially with a grown man crying. So yeah, what was the question..?
-Rick

[QuantumDestiny]

There was also a lack of the colour green in the whole series.

That was without a doubt GT greatest flaw-no namekians.

.... I see... what the heck are you trying to say? Geezus there is no need to mock all of Piccolo's scenes. Anyway, what I mean when I say lack of green, is that there was more city scape, less grass. I don't know why, it just bothered me.

[desirecampbell]

There was also a lack of the colour green in the whole series.

That was without a doubt GT greatest flaw-no namekians.

.... I see... what the heck are you trying to say? Geezus there is no need to mock all of Piccolo's scenes. Anyway, what I mean when I say lack of green, is that there was more city scape, less grass. I don't know why, it just bothered me.

Heh, Mr. Piccolo thought you meant that GT didn't have enough Piccolo in it when you said "lack of the colour green". Someone's reading too much into it.

I wouldn't worry about it QD, he's obviously jealous at our superior spelling of "colour".

[Mr.Piccolo]

Gah, typed that wrong but I get what you mean.. *fixes*

I wouldn't worry about it QD, he's obviously jealous at our superior spelling of "colour".

Yeah, of course.*grumbles things about Canada*
-Rick

[Conan the SSJ]

The GT one felt out of place, especially with a grown man crying. So yeah, what was the question..?
-Rick

I think you of all Piccolo fans would understand this, Rick. Piccolo was more of a Father to Gohan than Goku himself, their bond was arguably the strongest in the series. If a father figure of yours is about to die and talks to you through this ordeal, what would you do? Even a man in his mid 30s is gonna cry.

That was without a doubt GT's biggest mistake-no namekians.
-Rick

The Namekians, outside Piccolo and Dende, did get two appearances in GT; when Moori bails out the Earthlings once again by wishing Earth back and in episode 63 when everyone Goku met in the universe gave him their energy. Another thing about the Super 17 saga, something I very much liked, was getting some more Piccolo/Dende interaction and learning more of the abilities of a Namekian; that being the mind fusion that helps Goku escape Hell. One thing overlooked about GT, it expands on other things Z leaves you wondering about, such as would Piccolo's atonement get him into Heaven (which it did, till he went blasts ahoy) and the revelation from Buu to Uub about their past and magical connection.

Also, where to look for all of Piccolo's appearances in GT [Spoilers!]:
Episode 26: Shown to no longer be living at the Lookout, Piccolo (meditating at a waterfall) senses something amiss going on. He goes to find Gohan, only to instead find an unconscious Goten and Gohan possessed by Bebi. Bebi-Gohan challenges Piccolo, surprising him with a Kamehame-Ha, knocking him out until the later worldwide egg laying.
Episode 40: Piccolo, fully aware the Earth is dying because of the Black-Star Dragonballs, doesn't bring himself to leave for the new Planet Plant on any of the departing ships or with Kabitoshin. As SSJ4 Goku comes back to Earth to find one last straggler, he finds Piccolo caught a little boy and his dog after they fell from a cliff. SSJ4 Goku, exhausted from staying in the form for so long constantly teleporting, reverts back to his child normal form. Because his teleporting is nullified as a child, Goku's convinced there's nothing he can do to save them, but Piccolo doesn't believe it. He gives "Son" every ounce of energy he can for him to tap into just enough SSJ4 power to bring himself and the boy to the Capsule Corp. ship. However, Goku finds that Piccolo let go of his hand at the last second, as he's still on the volcanic erupting Earth; looking into the distance toward the Tsufurujin planet. He contacts Gohan for one last conversation, telling him that he can't leave the Earth if the Black-Star balls are gonna continue causing this kind of devastation. In sorrow, Gohan begins shedding tears as Piccolo tells him how proud he is of his maturing and grown power. Feeling wounded, Piccolo knows the planet's at the peek of destruction and bids Gohan a final farewell, screaming as he's enveloped by the exploding Earth. Goku screams his name in shock from the CC. ship while Gohan falls to his knees, silently saying Piccolo's name a couple times, then screaming it in deep sorrow.
Episode 44: Sensing Goku didn't have a way out of Hell, as Enma's power wouldn't work while the minus effect of the Dragonballs began to take effect, Piccolo volunteered to go to Hell to free Goku. Enma initially protests, telling him that something even as important as this couldn't be allowed, as it would break a sacred law. Piccolo then resorts to drastic actions, declaring himself the evil Piccolo Daimao and blasts all the souls he can. Enma angrily gives Piccolo what he wants, sending him below where he meets up with Goku. Goku questions why Piccolo came to him and Piccolo tells him to never underestimate the boundaries of the Namekians.
Episode 45: Piccolo contacts Dende on Earth while Super 17 lays into the Z(GT) warriors like they're nothing. Piccolo tells him that they can free Goku by emulating what the two 17s did to further open the gap between Earth and Hell. Goku asks Piccolo if they're doing a type of fusion, to which Piccolo replies it's a fusion of their minds. Piccolo removes his turban, the first time since Bojack Unbound, and he and Dende subsequently attempt many tries by timing their Namek energies together. When they see that counting "1, 2, 3" isn't working, Goku suggests the trick he and Pan used to defeat Luudo. Piccolo at first thinks Goku is full of it, however tries it anyway as he has nothing to lose. It turns out this worked perfectly for the timing, as they now managed to open their own gap between the two realms for Goku to cross through. Goku asks for Piccolo to come too, as it looks as though he'll have to spend eternity in Hell, however Piccolo tells him that he can't let the telepathic hold go, as doing such would close the gap. Goku regrets leaving Piccolo, but does so anyhow in order to get to Super 17. As Goku makes it, Piccolo and Dende let go of their mental merging. Upon doing so, Piccolo hears old enemies such as Nappa walking toward him with a couple Red Ribbon soldiers, inspiring him to kill time through getting revenge.
Episode 64: Following the ambiguous deal Goku makes with Shenlong, we come to see Piccolo in Hell defending some Oni workers from a rogue monster. After giving the monster a beating, Piccolo's surprised to see Goku sitting at the top of a mountain, giving him a thumbs up for defeating the monster. Goku, knowing he's going down a new path in which he may never see his family and friends again, comes toward Piccolo. Piccolo at first questions what's going on, only to be offered a handshake. The two old friends shake hands, to which Piccolo asks "Son, are you...?" while Goku walks behind him and replies "No matter what, I'll always remember what you did for me." Goku then vanishes as Piccolo turns around yelling "Son!", seeing him gone.