Why didn't FUNi just use a later generation master?

[Synapse]

I mean, their credibility is kinda low as is being that the "original Japanese masters" they used for the season sets are presumably not the originals. That being said, why didn't they use the masters or copies of the masters used for the dragonbox?

I mean, the main things that fans find to be a problem are the widescreen, the visible damage, and the color problems. So why didn't they just use a better, maybe newer master, and save time on the remastering (like they spent that much time anyway?), while also avoiding the backlash to the remastering they could have saved time on (how about that for irony?).

Besides, as far as I'm concerned, it's not as if because they used the "original Japanese masters," everyone's forgiven them for their mistakes.

[Strongbad456]

Well there is the possibility that it's Toei's fault. Toei maybe wouldn't give them the masters to the Dragon Box. Or maybe they didn't have the money. It may have been completely out of their hands.

[Pieter]

Well there is the possibility that it's Toei's fault. Toei maybe wouldn't give them the masters to the Dragon Box. Or maybe they didn't have the money. It may have been completely out of their hands.

Toei probably doesn't want to give the original master since that's what they make money from. Otherwise people could buy the dvd's overseas for a lower prize

[desirecampbell]

I think the main question here is about the film quality itself. The one's we've been seeing on the UUEs were (presumably) later generation copies, and as such had some degradation, but they didn't have huge rips and mounds of glue that needed to be cut off.

I can't image why Funi decided to get new-old prints with rips in them. That was probably decided by the same guy that suggested widescreen.

[ETC123]

First and foremost, what you need to understand in any question (that'll obviously go unanswered, officially, in any way sensical) is that FUNimation didn't use X master of Y internegative because (without meaning to sound like a dick) FUNimation does not give a shit. This, unfortunantly, goes for quite a few production companies when making DVDs. 99% of people buying something like DBZ isn't going to care about obvious grain or cropped widescreen or anything, they're just going to go "oh, cheap DBZ!". This in turn sells a lot of copies and well, that's the end of that.

Toei, I imagine, probably would give them Dragonbox footage, assuming FUNimation would pay for it. Toei, also, might not want to, but it's not an issue of reverse importation. Japan is a very materialistic society, in a way, and would generally prefer to buy a Japanese product, which is why the singles are selling so well, and why the Dragonboxes were a huge success. Reverse importation is only a concern in lesser known series and in Hentai, because of the following-

1. Hentai is release in Japan generally as one episode discs that can cost up to $70 USD, and are censored in accordance with Japanese law (Penises, Vaginas, or things that can be interprated as Penises and Vaginas* are all censored with mosaics).

2. Hentai can be released in the US, abeilt with worse cover art, however be around $30 a disc with two or more generally uncensored episodes or whatever.

This, and downloading of uncensored US material, is the real problem and issue with reverse importation. This might have also been a problem with say, the first UC Gundam series having a Japanese language release here, instgead of dub only, before Japan had gotten an R2 release. However, you're forgetting that the quality of American Anime releases versus Japanese anime releases puts R1s at the lower end of the spectrum. More often than not you could look at an R1 as a means to an end, whereas an R2 release is a luxury thing.

But that's getting a bit too technical and off the topic. To simplify everything, both FUNimation and Toei have the money to do it properly. They simply chose not to do so, and the real reasons may be as clear as day, we just don't want to see them like that. FUNimation, for all of it's fan concern, is not our friend. None of the companies are. They're there, primarily, to make a buck. Sometimes this requires the proliferation of Anime as an art form, and othertimes as a shill for toys and ridiculous, cropped DVDs that people simply justify with "Oh, well, it's cheap!". No standards, I swear.

* On one of the New La Blue Girl discs, there's an interesting commentary by some of the Japanese staff watching the American version. They hadn't really seen Hentai unmosaiced, and considered the Mosaic as a sort of challenge to their creativity. This is why tentacle rape/porn was ushered in, because it was a way of making uncensored penises, but wasn't allowed because once again, they were penises. This did not stop them from becoming a fetish in the early 90's/late 80's/whenever, but I dont think they're used nowerdays.

[desirecampbell]

(Great post ETC123, and welsome to the forum! )

I agree, but why would Funi go out of their way to get another set of film prints for this release, when they had a perfectly good set already? Doing that seems completely illogical and without any merit a all. Of course, that does sound like Funimation... *sigh*

[Soluzar]

I agree, but why would Funi go out of their way to get another set of film prints for this release, when they had a perfectly good set already? Doing that seems completely illogical and without any merit a all. Of course, that does sound like Funimation... *sigh*

It's always possible that their old set of masters is no longer complete. Obviously there's a complete archive of everything they have released on DVD, but you wouldn't want to use that to create a new release. It's already been compressed using a lossy algorithm. I strongly suspect FUNi no longer have the good quality masters they used to create the bulk of their uncut DVDs, otherwise it wouldn't make any sense for them to find new ones.

It's also possible they needed new (and uncropped) masters to create the widescreen effect, and it's even possible that the "new" masters are actually the same old ones, just badly degraded from neglect and altered by FUNi's "remastering" process.

[SatoSky]

I don't think FUNimation ever used a film print at all before this release. What they put on TV and DVD is 'mastered' from a Beta source, that Toei probably gave them. Seeing as how the video was already zoomed in to cover up the damage and glue.

I think FUNimation wanted to do something like the Dragon Box, saw how much Toei wanted for those masters and opted to go the cheap route and use the old shitty prints Toei had given to them before. They didn't go to Toei and buy these "Original Japanese Film Masters," they had these in some vault somewhere, probably just rotting away.

[Soluzar]

I don't think FUNimation ever used a film print at all before this release. What they put on TV and DVD is 'mastered' from a Beta source, that Toei probably gave them. Seeing as how the video was already zoomed in to cover up the damage and glue.

When you say "Beta", do you mean as in Betamax videotape? If so, then I'm surprised the FUNi DVDs look as good as they do. If it is really true that they were mastered from videotape, I'd expect a lot worse.

Of course it's possible that I misunderstood you. It seems really unlikely that FUNi actually used videotape masters...

I think FUNimation wanted to do something like the Dragon Box, saw how much Toei wanted for those masters and opted to go the cheap route and use the old shitty prints Toei had given to them before. They didn't go to Toei and buy these "Original Japanese Film Masters," they had these in some vault somewhere, probably just rotting away.

Didn't you just say that FUNi never had any film masters to begin with? I'm confused now...

[SatoSky]

I wrote never used film masters. Not that they never had any.

It seems really unlikely that FUNi actually used videotape masters... Shocked

Really? It doesn't seem too unlikely to me. I don't remember in which exact thread I read that FUNimation used videotape masters, but it was somewhere in this forum. I'll dig around and see what I can find so I can link it. I think it was in one of the many Dragon Box discussions.

[Conan the SSJ]

Another thread that belongs in the Questions section?

Anywho, the masters FUNi's used for all previous releases are in an already-ready-to-air "digibeta" format, with their own zoom-in function applied to avoid glue issues (this obviously results in a "cropping" issue even with these releases). These masters seem even more crummy than the film masters FUNi acquired for the season sets, otherwise FUNi would've just stuck with the digibeta. Add to the heavily grainy/dirt-laced footage, FUNi also heavily color saturated it for Cartoon Network airing and VHS/DVD releases, something that's presumably being kept to a minimum with the season set film masters.

As to why FUNi couldn't get the original of original film masters from Toei? It's simple. Toei is not going to sell or give away the original source film masters of their most prized show, they don't trust anyone else with handling these prints and most likely kept them in cold storage from day one with exceptions of film copying and the Dragonbox remastering. FUNi couldn't get these copies if they had Gen Fukunaga dance naked at the News Year's Eve festival in New York. So what they choose to do was to purchase inferior second generation film masters and get their own remastering done. Why they wouldn't have just purchased the rights to use the Dragonbox footage, which as some of us know they have all sets right in their Ft. Worth office, who knows (Spain did, albeit heavily saturated their copy).

Maybe one day, FUNi will get the rights to the Dragonbox footage. Maybe they won't. In any case, their season sets' video quality look just as good as the previous releases in my view and they're affordable, so some of us are simply gonna go for that based around the facts we just want this entire series in a fully translated and consistent state. It's your decision what to buy; the limited Dragonbox sets, the Dragonbox singles, the Spanish releases, all of FUNi's previous single releases, or these new season sets of theirs. I'm going with the season sets.

Digibeta:

16mm Film:

[Bardock the Mexican]

First and foremost, what you need to understand in any question (that'll obviously go unanswered, officially, in any way sensical) is that FUNimation didn't use X master of Y internegative because (without meaning to sound like a dick) FUNimation does not give a shit. This, unfortunantly, goes for quite a few production companies when making DVDs. 99% of people buying something like DBZ isn't going to care about obvious grain or cropped widescreen or anything, they're just going to go "oh, cheap DBZ!". This in turn sells a lot of copies and well, that's the end of that.

Toei, I imagine, probably would give them Dragonbox footage, assuming FUNimation would pay for it. Toei, also, might not want to, but it's not an issue of reverse importation. Japan is a very materialistic society, in a way, and would generally prefer to buy a Japanese product, which is why the singles are selling so well, and why the Dragonboxes were a huge success.

Well done. Bien hecho. I can tell that you are not the same rank and file anime fan. You know a lot of information on possibly why Funi got the masters they got, and you have pointed out like many have, that it was Toei studios that chose the master tapes for the US release. If I didn't know any better then I would guess that you have some sort of insider information on Funi. But...I am wrong arn't I.

[ETC123]

Well done. Bien hecho. I can tell that you are not the same rank and file anime fan. You know a lot of information on possibly why Funi got the masters they got, and you have pointed out like many have, that it was Toei studios that chose the master tapes for the US release. If I didn't know any better then I would guess that you have some sort of insider information on Funi. But...I am wrong arn't I.

Hey, thanks guy. It's an observation thing. From what I've read, MajinVejitaXV does actually talk to more FUNimation people than I do (which is none, not nessecerally by choice but because well... stuff), but they work how any other large model company works, except they make some really, really stupid and ineffectual choices, which make no sense because as a company, they aren't as large as they'd have you believe.

When you figure out that these sorts run on the logic of 2+2=65, it becomes easier to understand, interpret, and decipher what they mean and what they say )and ultimatly, what they do), though they occasionally throw curve-balls on the way.

[nathantheguitarist]

MajinVejitaXV does actually talk to more FUNimation people than I do (which is none, not nessecerally by choice but because well... stuff),

Have you written a letter to them yet?

(Check my sig )

[ETC123]

MajinVejitaXV does actually talk to more FUNimation people than I do (which is none, not nessecerally by choice but because well... stuff),

Have you written a letter to them yet?

(Check my sig )

I've written them a letter, plus convinced one or two others to write them aswell (of course, only people who want to buy it). I've even dropped hints on how to do such sets (limited, preorder only), because I understand that their new craptastic masters probably cost them a lot and they want to use them.

What I want is an alternative, legitimatly speaking. Once FUNimation gives us one, I will be willing to compromise. I'm not bought so easily like some others are.

[DBW]

These masters seem even more crummy than the film masters FUNi acquired for the season sets, otherwise FUNi would've just stuck with the digibeta.

I disagree with this. Their new film masters seem to have much more physical damage on them then their previous digibeta tapes. Watching the various Season One clips people posted, I was definately noticing more prominent damage than I'd seen on previous FUNimation DVD and VHS releases, and it makes perfect sense.

The reason they transfer the material onto digibeta for distribution is because the format is "protected" so to speak. You can throw the tapes into a box and ship them around the world, and aside from general wear from multiple viewings, the footage will remain consistant. 16mm film does not have this luxury. It is very susceptible to damage when not properly stored, or used multiple times (whether through a projector or telecine device or whatever).

If Funimation's previous digibeta tapes were based off the same film source, we can at least say that they've been (for the most part) "protected" since the early '90s. Meanwhile, the film source itself (in Toei's possession) has been degrading further. We know that FUNi got either a 2nd or 3rd gen film source, so all the damage makes sense since these film masters were most likely used multiple times in the past, and not preserved to the specifications of the original "zero gen" photography (which is what was used for the Dragon Boxes).

So why use a film source and not the previous "ready-to-air" digibeta tapes?
You can't do a proper remaster using cassette tapes. You have to go back to the source, which in this case happens to be 16mm film. From this point their actions are pure speculation...whether you believe the "widescreen is awesome, yarhar!" theory, or the "oh fuck, severe glue damage, let's crop around it" theory, I guess at this point it doesn't really matter anymore.

[Super Sonic]

As for why guys are wondering why Toei didn't give Funimation the dragonbox type masters, it may be similar to how Bandai couldn't release the original Mobile Suit Gundam with Japanese audio here.

[ETC123]

As for why guys are wondering why Toei didn't give Funimation the dragonbox type masters, it may be similar to how Bandai couldn't release the original Mobile Suit Gundam with Japanese audio here.

Not quite. MS Gundam didn't get a Japanese language release in the states because there was no R2 version available (and during that period it was said that there never would be). Dragonbox masters on the other hand were produced before these sets, as well as already finishing their single run, and topping various DVD sales charts again and again.

[Super Sonic]

As for why guys are wondering why Toei didn't give Funimation the dragonbox type masters, it may be similar to how Bandai couldn't release the original Mobile Suit Gundam with Japanese audio here.

Not quite. MS Gundam didn't get a Japanese language release in the states because there was no R2 version available (and during that period it was said that there never would be). Dragonbox masters on the other hand were produced before these sets, as well as already finishing their single run, and topping various DVD sales charts again and again.

I heard the Japanese company didn't give it to Bandai because they wanted to make money off them themselves rather than have fans import American dvds, thus them not getting money for it.