Concerning Freeza's scouter breaking..

[Mr.Piccolo]

That's the thing. No statements were given about how much Freeza powered up. Sure, he may have seemed at full power, but there is no absolute evidence to prove it.

Statements are not needed, Vegeta dares Freeza to show his true form, and Freeza decides to do it after all, and begins powering up. A pissed off Freeza couldn't kill Vegeta in that 530,000 form.

If they were equal, then Freeza would've been just as winded, but he wasn't.

LOL!, Goku was winded in his first bout against Vegeta and he still was kicking his @#$.

Goku..really wasn't kicking his ass. For the most part, Vegeta did win the fight up until the others arrived to help Goku. By the way, if you consider going Oozaru cheating, kaioken would be too and Goku could only beat Vegeta through Kaioken.

But anyway, I'm not sure what your claim is. Do you really think Vegeta, who had trouble against Reccome, got such a huge boost of power that he was on Freeza's level (first form) or that he was stronger? I dunno.. that's a bit for fetched IMO. I happen to own those episodes as well. Unfortunately, there's nothing that clearly says that Vegeta was much of a threat to Freeza at that time in the manga or anime, so..
-Rick

[desirecampbell]

Holy good god, I leave you guys alone for a month and this happens.


Freeza isn't trying very hard against Vegeta. He's shocked that the saiyan is that strong, the last time he'd seen Vegeta he was only just slightly more powerful than Zarbon (and that was mere hours ago), and he's now at least more powerful than Reecome.

Imagine it like this: there's a carton of milk on the table, you think it's empty but when you go to pick it up, it's full - you don't succeed, but that doesn't mean you couldn't throw that same milk thirty feet if you tried again. Freeza does the same thing - Vegeta is far more powerful than he expected, but not necessarily stronger than Freeza. And from what we see, and know, about their efforts here - Vegeta is clearly still very much Freeza's lesser.

I'd wager Vegeta is around 100,000 - way more than Freeza would expect, but not by so much that he'd be completely overwhelmed.

[Kaboom]

Heh heh, milk. "Dance, cow, dance!"

Nice comparison, though.

[Pieter]

But anyway, I'm not sure what your claim is. Do you really think Vegeta, who had trouble against Reccome, got such a huge boost of power that he was on Freeza's level (first form) or that he was stronger? I dunno.. that's a bit for fetched IMO. I happen to own those episodes as well. Unfortunately, there's nothing that clearly says that Vegeta was much of a threat to Freeza at that time in the manga or anime, so..
-Rick

If you like it or not, Vegeta did get a major boost. After he was healed by Dende he was stronger than Piccolo, and thus at least about a million. It's more likely that he also received a boost before that against first form Freeza, unless you want to say he only received a major boost of 10 times his strength after getting shot by Krillin.

Holy good god, I leave you guys alone for a month and this happens.

I don't see anything wrong with these type of discussions, as long as people aren't biased or persistent. It's fun to learn new things and listen to each others arguments.

Freeza isn't trying very hard against Vegeta. He's shocked that the saiyan is that strong, the last time he'd seen Vegeta he was only just slightly more powerful than Zarbon (and that was mere hours ago), and he's now at least more powerful than Reecome.

Hours? I think you mean days. Don't forget it took Goku 6 days alone to travel to Namek.

I'd wager Vegeta is around 100,000 - way more than Freeza would expect, but not by so much that he'd be completely overwhelmed.

Only twice as strong as Nail? We saw how that turned out, and Freeza wasn't even powered-up.

[Tyro]

I'd wager Vegeta is around 100,000 - way more than Freeza would expect, but not by so much that he'd be completely overwhelmed.

I'd doubt Vegeta would be that low in power.

When Freeza was fighting Nail, someone stated to be 42,000 in power, Freeza didn't even have to try to fight to own him horribly. Look at some of the feats he had against Nail.

- Nail flew at Freeza and gave Freeza a chop to the neck. Freeza didn't block it, nor are we shown him tensing up or trying to do anything about it. He simply lets it happen. He doesn't even register the attack. And he's fighting this battle with one arm.

- He sets his left arm on top of Nail's. To us, it looks like nothing is going on. Freeza isn't mad. In fact, he's smiling. But with just tiny little movements he rips Nail's arm off.

- He also takes a blast head on from Nail only being a few feet away and, again, didn't register it at all.

This is very similar to how Goku owned the Ginyu force. And considering how they were stronger than Vegeta (I think we can all agree he'd be around 30,000) but weaker than Goku ("about 85,000" probably 90,000), a 45,000 placement wouldn't be too bad for them. That'd make Goku twice as strong as each of them.

Anyway, back to Freeza. If he was 2x as strong as Nail, he'd be 84,000. And of course he powered up against Vegeta. Now, IMHO, I believe he was at full power. Considering how PO'ed he was. I'd place Vegeta around his full power. But slightly lower. But that's just me. Sorry if this was too "power level-ish" for some of you.

[Soulcleaver_I]

Yay power levels


I've always wondered: What if, when Freeza stated his power level at 530,000... he was, you know, fibbing? It would throw off estimates for everything ever.

[Phenomenol]

Goku..really wasn't kicking his ass. For the most part, Vegeta did win the fight up until the others arrived to help Goku. By the way, if you consider going Oozaru cheating, kaioken would be too and Goku could only beat Vegeta through Kaioken.But anyway, I'm not sure what your claim is. Do you really think Vegeta, who had trouble against Reccome, got such a huge boost of power that he was on Freeza's level (first form) or that he was stronger? I dunno.. that's a bit for fetched IMO. I happen to own those episodes as well. Unfortunately, there's nothing that clearly says that Vegeta was much of a threat to Freeza at that time in the manga or anime, so..
-Rick

First of all, my username is Phenomenol. Not Superstar or Phenomenal.

Second, Goku was kicking Vegeta's ass up and down Sesame Street and he was winded. A Full powerd-up Freeza could NOT kill Vegeta, who evenly matched his might. Yet you say there's nothing suggesting that.

Freeza isn't trying very hard against Vegeta. He's shocked that the saiyan is that strong, the last time he'd seen Vegeta he was only just slightly more powerful than Zarbon (and that was mere hours ago), and he's now at least more powerful than Reecome. Imagine it like this: there's a carton of milk on the table, you think it's empty but when you go to pick it up, it's full - you don't succeed, but that doesn't mean you couldn't throw that same milk thirty feet if you tried again. Freeza does the same thing - Vegeta is far more powerful than he expected, but not necessarily stronger than Freeza. And from what we see, and know, about their efforts here - Vegeta is clearly still very much Freeza's lesser. I'd wager Vegeta is around 100,000 - way more than Freeza would expect, but not by so much that he'd be completely overwhelmed.

People thinking there analogies are facts don't really help. How can you say Vegeta was at 100,000 when you see 530,000 Freeza charging at Vegeta and Vegeta STALEMATES him? That does not look like 100,000 battle power to me, unless you think that carton of Milk was magically overflowing.

[desirecampbell]

Pieter, you're right, it was four days from when Freeza ordered Zarbon to follow the escaped Vegeta to when he fights him the first time. But you seem to be confused - Vegeta got healed by a senzu bean after fighting Recoome, took a nap after the fight with Ginyu/Goku, and only after fighting Freeza the first time and Piccolo showing up does Vegeta get shot by Kuririn and healed by Dende.

If Freeza was using the same amount of effort against Nail as he was against Vegeta (to be clear, he could be using more or less effort, but let's go with this assumption for now) then where's the problem with Vegeta only being about twice as strong as Nail? Freeza isn't putting his whole half-million power level into the attack, he's probably expending about 100, 000 - twice as powerful as Nail. Now, if Freeza had tried the same amount of force against Vegeta (who at last check was about as powerful as Nail) and Vegeta was now around 100,000 we'd see exactly what we do see: a stalemate, but with Vegeta using all his effort while Freeza uses little.


From there, we see Vegeta goad Freeza into transforming. I can't explain that one - Vegeta's stupid like that ("Dur, he obviously way stronger than I am, so maybe he'll be easier if he transforms...dur"). Vegeta makes bad decissions *cough*cough*"Let's wait for Kakkarot"*cough*"Okay, go and absorb #18 then"*cough*


Further, I see no evidence that Vegeta, even after being healed by Dende, was stronger than Piccolo (after absorbing Nail). It's been a while since I've seen it, but doesn't Piccolo make a comment about being "able to handle Vegeta" if he "needed to"? (I don't know, I might be making that up).

-edit-

People thinking there analogies are facts don't really help. How can you say Vegeta was at 100,000 when you see 530,000 Freeza charging at Vegeta and Vegeta STALEMATES him? That does not look like 100,000 battle power to me, unless you think that carton of Milk was magically overflowing

Here's what we know:
1. Both Vegeta and Freeza powered up - but Freeza's power up wrecked havoc with the landscape. Freeza is much stronger than Vegeta.
2. The two then clashed, and neither gained the upper hand. Both exerted the same amount of effort.
3. Freeza is known to toy with his enemies, and use far less than his full power to cause fear and humiliation. Freeza almost certainly wasn't exerting his full power
4. Vegeta can sense power levels, and so, knew exactly how strong Freeza was at this point, and that he was far outclassed. Vegeta went into the fight knowing he was weaker.
5. Freeza cannot sense power levels, and so would have an unrealistic view of Vegeta's power. That Vegeta had become stronger would have been unknown to him. Freeza went into the fight assuming Vegeta was about as powerful as he was when he saw him last.
6. After the initial clash Vegeta, while unhurt, is struggling for breath and noticeably irritable whereas Freeza is seen as upset, but not even winded. Vegeta went all out, while Freeza did not.

It's clear that Freeza was stronger than Vegeta, and that Vegeta was stronger than Freeza expected - '[/i]by how much[/i]' is debatable, but to say that Vegeta was as strong as Freeza is too erroneous to even consider.

[Tyro]

If Freeza was using the same amount of effort against Nail as he was against Vegeta (to be clear, he could be using more or less effort, but let's go with this assumption for now) then where's the problem with Vegeta only being about twice as strong as Nail?

But Freeza was using more effort. The whole time we see him on Namek up until his fighting Vegeta, he never once powers up or suppresses his power. His one and only power up is right before charging Vegeta. By that he should be using more power on Vegeta than against Nail.

Freeza isn't putting his whole half-million power level into the attack, he's probably expending about 100, 000 - twice as powerful as Nail. Now, if Freeza had tried the same amount of force against Vegeta (who at last check was about as powerful as Nail) and Vegeta was now around 100,000 we'd see exactly what we do see: a stalemate, but with Vegeta using all his effort while Freeza uses little.

How can you tell Freeza's not giving it his full? There are no distinguishing marks about him when he powers up in his second suppression state. He hasn't any veins appearing on his body. Could you explain specifically why you feel he'd only use about 100,000? Because I truly feel he'd be giving that and more against Nail considering how much he owned him with one arm. I posted that before.

From there, we see Vegeta goad Freeza into transforming. I can't explain that one - Vegeta's stupid like that ("Dur, he obviously way stronger than I am, so maybe he'll be easier if he transforms...dur"). Vegeta makes bad decisions *cough*cough*"Let's wait for Kakkarot"*cough*"Okay, go and absorb #18 then"*cough*

I doubt if Freeza had was holding back 430,000 of his power level, like you say, he'd even bothering transforming into his second suppression state which is "over 1,000,000."

Further, I see no evidence that Vegeta, even after being healed by Dende, was stronger than Piccolo (after absorbing Nail). It's been a while since I've seen it, but doesn't Piccolo make a comment about being "able to handle Vegeta" if he "needed to"? (I don't know, I might be making that up).

I've posted about this too. When Freeza reached his actual form (final form) he fired off his death beam, killing Dende. The only one would could even keep up with them was Vegeta. Piccolo even states he didn't even see them. Then Freeza fires two more at Gohan. Vegeta saw them, had enough time to fly down to Gohan, and kick him out of the way of both of them. Not to mention he could see Freeza for a few seconds while flying. Even though later it's clear Freeza was hardly using any of his power at all.

1. Both Vegeta and Freeza powered up - but Freeza's power up wrecked havoc with the landscape. Freeza is much stronger than Vegeta.

Maybe in the anime, but in the manga all that happens when Freeza powers up is he makes the wind blow.

2. The two then clashed, and neither gained the upper hand. Both exerted the same amount of effort.

Just because neither of them over take the other doesn't mean they have to be equal. An example that comes to mind is between SSj Goku vs. 100% Freeza. Freeza gets in plenty of shots, but Goku is certainly the superior in power. Another: Goku using the Kaio-ken was only slightly weaker than Vegeta's base. He was enough to get quite a lot of hits on him. Same for Gohan vs. (weakened) Vegeta. Gohan was clearly weaker than Vegeta but managed to get a hit on him and could hold off for a while.

3. Freeza is known to toy with his enemies, and use far less than his full power to cause fear and humiliation. Freeza almost certainly wasn't exerting his full power

We've seen Freeza fight with Nail before his big fight with everyone. And it's clear he was vastly stronger than Nail. He had no reason to not hold back. If he would have loosed his full power there he would have been 12.6190476 times stronger than Nail.

A great example of why that difference is frightening is Goku (beginning of Z) vs. Raditz. Goku is 416. Raditz is "over 1,200." Basically a three times difference. 416 x 3 = 1,248. Had Raditz not haid a tail he would have killed Goku. And he would of, but every time he went to use a finishing attack someone was hitting him (Gohan, Piccolo w/ the Light of Death).

Vegeta can sense power levels, and so, knew exactly how strong Freeza was at this point, and that he was far outclassed. Vegeta went into the fight knowing he was weaker.

But he ended up holding back Freeza. He knew his power and Freeza's. He knew if he'd get raped or not.

5. Freeza cannot sense power levels, and so would have an unrealistic view of Vegeta's power. That Vegeta had become stronger would have been unknown to him. Freeza went into the fight assuming Vegeta was about as powerful as he was when he saw him last.

He had a feeling that Vegeta, Gohan, and Kuririn killed the Ginyu special forces.

6. After the initial clash Vegeta, while unhurt, is struggling for breath and noticeably irritable whereas Freeza is seen as upset, but not even winded. Vegeta went all out, while Freeza did not.

Does Freeza have to be winded or sweating to show he went full out? And Vegeta wasn't exactly worn out. He's shown to be sweating and panting in one panel.

[Phenomenol]

Here's what we know:
1. Both Vegeta and Freeza powered up - but Freeza's power up wrecked havoc with the landscape. Freeza is much stronger than Vegeta.
2. The two then clashed, and neither gained the upper hand. Both exerted the same amount of effort.
3. Freeza is known to toy with his enemies, and use far less than his full power to cause fear and humiliation. Freeza almost certainly wasn't exerting his full power
4. Vegeta can sense power levels, and so, knew exactly how strong Freeza was at this point, and that he was far outclassed. Vegeta went into the fight knowing he was weaker.
5. Freeza cannot sense power levels, and so would have an unrealistic view of Vegeta's power. That Vegeta had become stronger would have been unknown to him. Freeza went into the fight assuming Vegeta was about as powerful as he was when he saw him last.
6. After the initial clash Vegeta, while unhurt, is struggling for breath and noticeably irritable whereas Freeza is seen as upset, but not even winded. Vegeta went all out, while Freeza did not.

It's clear that Freeza was stronger than Vegeta, and that Vegeta was stronger than Freeza expected - '[/i]by how much[/i]' is debatable, but to say that Vegeta was as strong as Freeza is too erroneous to even consider.

Your post is filled with a bunch of speculation. A Fully enraged pissed off Freeza is powered up to the max and he couldn't over power a standing still Vegeta! Freeza couldn't conquer Vegeta AT FULL POWER in his first form. Which means they were equal. Freeza was not stronger than Vegeta in that form.

[caejones]

*stepping in to say*
Facts followed by conclusions proven by said facts is not speculation. Speculation is elaborating on unknown facts using given facts to create a different conclusion that requires unstated facts. ... Or maybe I butchered the definition. But I hope my point is clear.

[Xyex]

Phenomenol, reserve power has no bearing on stamina. If Freeza wasn't tired because of reserve energy, it was because he wasn't at full power in that form.

I've mostly skimmed this over (mainly because it's really annoying to read the same general points being repeated after being refuted) but I've got a contribution to make just the same. I peg Vegeta at around 250,000 when he first challanged Freeza. Freeza's little 'power-up' proves that he was at a resting level before. Probably around 150,00 (stronger than Ginyu). His power-up may have doubled that level to 300,000. Enough to cause a psuedo-stalemate with Vegeta without really winding himself, and enough for Vegeta to think he can take him, even after he transformed.

As for his power after the blast through the chest by Krillin. I figure that's around 1.5 or 2 million. Strong enough it's superior to Piccolo's rounded 1 millon but weak enough it's still trounced by Freeza. And I'm done (for now at least, I'm sure someone will reply to this >.>).

[Pieter]

Pieter, you're right, it was four days from when Freeza ordered Zarbon to follow the escaped Vegeta to when he fights him the first time. But you seem to be confused - Vegeta got healed by a senzu bean after fighting Recoome, took a nap after the fight with Ginyu/Goku, and only after fighting Freeza the first time and Piccolo showing up does Vegeta get shot by Kuririn and healed by Dende.

I was aware of that. My argument is that in the end Vegeta receives more than a million, after this bout, which indicates his powerlevel couldn't be that far away from half a million.

If Freeza was using the same amount of effort against Nail as he was against Vegeta (to be clear, he could be using more or less effort, but let's go with this assumption for now) then where's the problem with Vegeta only being about twice as strong as Nail? Freeza isn't putting his whole half-million power level into the attack, he's probably expending about 100, 000 - twice as powerful as Nail. Now, if Freeza had tried the same amount of force against Vegeta (who at last check was about as powerful as Nail) and Vegeta was now around 100,000 we'd see exactly what we do see: a stalemate, but with Vegeta using all his effort while Freeza uses little.

Before fighting Nail Freeza states that his powerlevel is 530.000, but that he won't use all of it, which seems a bit different than hardly using any of it. Besides Freeza knows Ginyu's powerlevel, and thinks Vegeta beat him and the rest of the Ginyu Force, so Freeza must have powered up at least(!) over 120.000. Then he's really shocked and amazed that Vegeta is much stronger than Ginyu. Also let's not forget that during the clinch both of them were still powering up.

Besides, Freeza mentiones that "it wasn't a complete lie", after Vegeta said they can beat Freeza. I'm sure Freeza knows his own power. Gohan and Krillin are surprised that Freeza is still very calm, and this is because of the transformation he has up his sleeve, as Vegeta mentions.

So we have Gohan, Krillin, Vegeta and Freeza stating that the three of them can beat Freeza's first form which is said to be 530.000. Toriyama was pretty obvious on this one. Vegeta doesn't necessarily have to have the same powerlevel, something like 400.000 could have been enough, since he mentions the help of the earthlings.

From there, we see Vegeta goad Freeza into transforming. I can't explain that one - Vegeta's stupid like that ("Dur, he obviously way stronger than I am, so maybe he'll be easier if he transforms...dur").

I can explain that one. Being able to sense Freeza's powerlevel Vegeta is confident that together with the earthlings he can beat him. Let's not forget Vegeta probably knows Freeza's powerlevel. He suspects that Freeza won't increase much when he transforms and that they will still be able to win. Vegeta mentions it because at that moment it's what Freeza thinks.

Further, I see no evidence that Vegeta, even after being healed by Dende, was stronger than Piccolo (after absorbing Nail). It's been a while since I've seen it, but doesn't Piccolo make a comment about being "able to handle Vegeta" if he "needed to"? (I don't know, I might be making that up).

I'll quote. "Vegeta can see! How did he get this powerful?" Piccolo thought this after Vegeta saved Gohan. Piccolo wasn't able to see Freeza's attack. Vegeta says "Youre not good enough to see his movements!".

[Phenomenol]

Phenomenol, reserve power has no bearing on stamina. If Freeza wasn't tired because of reserve energy, it was because he wasn't at full power in that form.

Freeza was at full power in that form, not to mention that Freeza would NOT be fatigued because he has power to USE. It happens in Dragonball all the time.

[Xyex]

Phenomenol, reserve power has no bearing on stamina. If Freeza wasn't tired because of reserve energy, it was because he wasn't at full power in that form.

Freeza was at full power in that form, not to mention that Freeza would NOT be fatigued because he has power to USE. It happens in Dragonball all the time.

That's like saying that Base Goku wouldn't get winded fighting Buu because he has extra power in his SSJ forms. It doesn't work that way. The only power Freeza has access to, the only energy he can use, while in his first form is the energy of that form, not of higher forms.

[Phenomenol]

It is the same as Normal mode Goku not being winded by fighting Captian Ginyu when he had EXTRA power to use. Or how about Full-power Super Saiya-jin Goku not getting winded against Cell. I can give you a lot more examples. Freeza did NOT use his true form, so there was no reason for him to get tired.^^^

[Xyex]

It is the same as Normal mode Goku not being winded by fighting Captian Ginyu when he had EXTRA power to use.

Goku didn't get winded in his fight with Ginyu because he was stronger than Ginyu. He was using the Kaioken at the time, thus he had more power than Ginyu did.

Or how about Full-power Super Saiya-jin Goku not getting winded against Cell.

Uh... wha? Goku was tired as hell after that fight.

Freeza did NOT use his true form, so there was no reason for him to get tired.^^^

Oi. His other forms having nothing to do with his first form. It doesn't matter how much power they have, he can't use any of it in any way at all. If it were as you say, Vegeta wouldn't have gotten tired in his fight with Goku because he had all that power in his Oozaru form.

The facts are staring you right in the face. Freeza wasn't winded from his exchange with Vegeta because he wasn't trying with all of his power. Vegeta just wasn't as strong as him. It's that simple.

[Phenomenol]

Goku didn't get winded in his fight with Ginyu because he was stronger than Ginyu. He was using the Kaioken at the time, thus he had more power than Ginyu did.

Son Goku - 90,000
Captain Ginyu - 120,000
Son Goku [Kaioken] - 180,000

Goku wasn't stronger than Ginyu until AFTER Kaioken, yet he wasn't winded. He had more power in STORE, like Freeza.

Uh... wha? Goku was tired as hell after that fight.

That is after he powered up to full power, Goku wasn't tired BEFORE because he had more power.

Oi. His other forms having nothing to do with his first form. It doesn't matter how much power they have, he can't use any of it in any way at all. If it were as you say, Vegeta wouldn't have gotten tired in his fight with Goku because he had all that power in his Oozaru form.

The facts are staring you right in the face. Freeza wasn't winded from his exchange with Vegeta because he wasn't trying with all of his power. Vegeta just wasn't as strong as him. It's that simple.

Wrong, Vegeta states that freeza wasn't in his true form. So why would freeza be tired if he wasn't using his full power? Freeza fully powered up to 530,000 could NOT kill Vegeta, which means Vegeta was as powerful as Freeza.

[Jerseymilk]

First of all, my username is Phenomenol. Not Superstar or Phenomenal.

I've tried to tell you this subtley before. Your username is spelled incorrectly. The correct spelling of the word is "phenomonal". So there's no point in correcting people when they're right.

As to the "superstar" thing, people are calling you that because you remind them of a past member who had this obssession with light speed and was too pig-headed and blind to see when he was wrong, no matter how many times his arguments were proven wrong. A lot like you.

Soulcleaver_I: You should re-size your avatar before VegettoEX sees it. No one is allowed avatars bigger than 80x80 pixels on here.

[Phenomenol]

For the love of God, I put my username as phenomenOL on purpose, I subtley tried to tell you this before.

Show me in my posts where I have an "obsession" over lightspeed? Also, don't try and label me with garbage. Whatever I put in writing I always provide evidence. If you don't like it, feel free to prove me wrong on ANY subject.^^^