Kinda random question about Shenlong and Kami...

Hao_Kaiser · Post by **Hao_Kaiser** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:24 pm

Ok, this has been irking me for a while. In the Saiyajin saga, Oolong asks Shenlong if it would be possible for Bulma and the others to wish for the Saiyajin to be killed, or something to that extent. Shenlong's reply to this is something like "I was created by Kami, therefor I can't do anything that isn't within his ability." It's something to that extent, not really sure... But I seem to remember another example of this, just not clearly enough to actually say what it is.

Now, here's my question, if Shenlong is able to bring people back to life... Then why can't Kami if the occasion needed it?

Aside from the obligatory "It wouldn't make for good T.V." answer, all I can think of is that Kami created Shenlong while he was still one being, and no longer had the same ability... But that would require that Kami did create Shenlong while he was one being... A fact that I'm not quite 100% sure on.

Although... On that same tangent, Dende created a Earth dragon too... so...

the_abberration · Post by **the_abberration** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:09 pm

In the original DB series, Kami states that "even a god can't revive the dead". So basically, he couldn't do it even if he wanted too.

Why the dragon is able to is beyond me. I guess he was created to grant miracles and resurrection is certainly a miracle, but it may have something to do with a person being able to be wished back if their death was not due to natural causes.

Mystic Jack · Post by **Mystic Jack** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:30 pm

What it comes down to is if Kami had the ability to bring back the dead, then there really wasn't any point in making the dragon balls in the first place. He could say a few magic words and have someone brought back.

(And on a completely different note... *In Cha La Head Cha La Style*: I'M A REG-U-LAR!)

Hao_Kaiser · Post by **Hao_Kaiser** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:40 pm

Mystic Jack wrote:What it comes down to is if Kami had the ability to bring back the dead, then there really wasn't any point in making the dragon balls in the first place. He could say a few magic words and have someone brought back.

Yeah... Hence my saying "Wouldn't Make Good T.V." I know that it would kinda make a good 1/3 of the story pointless, but why would Shenlong, or... uh, Toriyama, throw that random detail in.

Though, I guess Kami might have the ability, but just so his "people" don't become to dependent on him, he created the DBs so they would have to work for what they want.

Of course, only a handful of people even associated with Kami... but, yeah.

gohanku · Post by **gohanku** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 1:00 am

Maybe, Kami gave all his mytical miracle powers to Shenlong so only Shenlong can make miracle now and not Kami.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 1:15 am

I figure it's a 'non-interference' policy. Obviously the Supreme Kai could have come down and defeated Freeza and freed the galaxy. But he didn't. It could be the same thing with Kami.

Either that, or Shenron's abilities are determined by the ammount of Ki Kami has and not by Kami's own powers. Thus, Kami has enough Ki for Shenron to be able to revive someone but only because Shenron has the ability to revive, not Kami. This would also be why Shenron couldn't kill Nappa and Vegeta, Kami's no where near their level of power.

Conan the SSJ · Post by **Conan the SSJ** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 1:33 am

gohanku wrote:Maybe, Kami gave all his mytical miracle powers to Shenlong so only Shenlong can make miracle now and not Kami.

While not being able to revive the dead, Kami still has extraordinary abilities. He can posses any normal being on Earth if he chooses, see to it that a dying person can keep his physical body in the afterlife, and even temporarily travel to Yama's check-in station. Maybe there's some type of yin-yang issue in the powers Kami and Shenlong have, like Kami can do certain things for the dying like Goku, but Shenlong is the one with the power to revive him. Likewise, Kami can kill if he chooses to do so (except in the case of committing suicide), but Shenlong can't.

It's all very confusing, but that yin-yang theory is the best guess on this issue I got.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 1:55 pm

Shenlong isn't just a dragon that has all of Kami's powers, he's a mystical being created by Kami - he can do whatever Kami has created him to do.

The idea that Shenlong can't do anything that is "beyond his creator's power" simply means that he was created with a set amount of power, and it's not simply some 'cosmic rule' that keeps him from killing others, it's just that he simply doesn't have the power to do so. It's "beyond his creator's power" to give Shenlong the power to kill others.

Like in the Freeza saga when he was going to resurrect everyone killed by Freeza and his henchmen - he could only bring back those that had died in the last ('year' was it?), again, simply because he lacked that magnitude of power.

When Dende comes along, he creates a stronger, more powerful Shenlong.

Azure · Post by **Azure** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 6:00 pm

I think Shen-long means in terms of power required. Since the Saiyans at this point are way beyond the power of Kami ( and indeed Kaio-sama) he can't just attack Vegeta. Though I guess they could have use the strategy Vegeta later wanted to try on Namek and wish for immortality.

Pedro The Hutt · Post by **Pedro The Hutt** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 9:06 pm

They could've just wished for the Saiyajin to be teleported a few kilometers away from their spacepods. o: Death by suffocation! Or for the spacepods to detonate. Or something like that. Silly earthlings.

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 6:30 am

Well, didn't Shenron say he couldn't bring Goku to the Checkin Station because he was alive, and to do so would mean that he would die? That sorta implied to me that Shenron wasn't allowed to grant wishes that would directly result in death, regardless of power, but I haven't seen that idea supported anywhere...

Conan the SSJ · Post by **Conan the SSJ** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 6:49 am

caejones wrote:Well, didn't Shenron say he couldn't bring Goku to the Checkin Station because he was alive, and to do so would mean that he would die? That sorta implied to me that Shenron wasn't allowed to grant wishes that would directly result in death, regardless of power, but I haven't seen that idea supported anywhere...

That was actually Porunga and that "wish" was a pretty lousy mistranslation/alteration on FUNi's part. The original wish in the Japanese version was for whatever traceable remains of Goku and Kuririn in the destroyed Namek's orbit be brought to Earth. Porunga complied with Kuririn, but couldn't with Goku, because he was still alive. Actually, it really didn't make sense for Porunga to say "bringing Goku to the check-in station would kill him" (as Kami and Baba can clearly go there while alive), nor does it make sense for Vegeta and everyone to assume the check-in station is directly linked with Earth (when it's revealed by Kami in episode 6, all species in the universe come there upon death as he's asked by Goku "Even aliens?"). But then, that's all season 3 dub writing mistakes for ya'.

Mystic Jack · Post by **Mystic Jack** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 8:24 am

Funnily enough, this stroked me for a interesting question, do you think that the dragon ball's actually tax off Kami's actual energy? Or maybe even take away part of his life? Seeing as they do depend on him specifically...

Post by **desirecampbell** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 11:44 am

Mystic Jack wrote:Funnily enough, this stroked me for a interesting question, do you think that the dragon ball's actually tax off Kami's actual energy? Or maybe even take away part of his life? Seeing as they do depend on him specifically...

I wouldn't think so. It's possible, but there's nothing to suggest such a drain.

And, again, I'd like to re-suggest my theory that Shenlong simply doesn't have the ability to do the things he says he can't do. Everyone seems to think he's "not allowed" to perform some actions, but it seems more likely that he simply can't do them.

Hao_Kaiser · Post by **Hao_Kaiser** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 3:52 pm

Mystic Jack wrote:Funnily enough, this stroked me for a interesting question, do you think that the dragon ball's actually tax off Kami's actual energy? Or maybe even take away part of his life? Seeing as they do depend on him specifically...

You know, after I read some of the responses I got in this thread, that actually came to my mind... It kinda makes since, considering the "1 Year" rule, that seems to become flexable once Shenlong is able to grant two wishes...

Actually, maybe Shenlong can grant two wishes with the new Kami because Dende is so much younger, and would logically have more stamina (Or expendable life force, if were going by the "takes away some of his life" theory.

Drabaz · Post by **Drabaz** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:38 am

Actually, maybe Shenlong can grant two wishes with the new Kami because Dende is so much younger, and would logically have more stamina (Or expendable life force, if were going by the "takes away some of his life" theory.

Then explain the elder Namek and 3 wishes.

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:07 am

Recall though that Parunga's wishes seemed to have more limitations. Although that changed by the Buu saga... at that point the Namek DBs had probably not been used since the end of the Freeza Saga, so even if the energy-tapping theory is correct, enough doesn't really happen to show how it would affect the new elder.