Could the Cyborgs really be stronger than Freeza?

Anonymous Friend · Post by **Anonymous Friend** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 9:02 pm

I reading another topic here and someone mentioned that they believed that it wasn't very plausible for the Cyborgs to be stronger than Freeza. My question to everyone: Is it really that unbelievable for Gero to manufacter being of the magnitude?

Not wanting to use a real life comparison but still feeling compelled to, we do have tiny devices that can level cities a la nuclear weapons. Plus, the fact that Gero is one of smartest geniuses on the planet.

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 9:21 pm

Well, it's not really a lot of machinery. All the equipment really mentioned making up #17 and #18 are a generator which gives them infinite ki to a certain level (equal to Piccolo post-assimilation with Kami-sama), and a bomb for emergencies.

NEG · Post by **NEG** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 9:34 pm

Cell made more sense then the androids, honestly. Since Cell gained all his abilities from everyone else. Plus is more "grown organism" then android.

On the other hand, 18 can give birth.

Its also slightly odd that Gero made his creations less and less strong in the process anyhow. 19 and 20 are nowhere near competition for SSJ Vegeta, thus not Freeza/Goku either. Yet 13, 14, 15,16, 17, 18 are all hilariously stronger as you go down the chain? Groan.

Cell's power makes sense. Androids? Not to me.

Not to mention since power levels are thrown out of the picture completly starting that saga.

MajinVejitaXV · Post by **MajinVejitaXV** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 10:08 pm

NEG wrote:On the other hand, 18 can give birth.

Well, she is a cyborg as opposed to an android...

Damn FUNimation...

Its also slightly odd that Gero made his creations less and less strong in the process anyhow.

Disregarding Movie 7 (because I say so), it makes perfect sense. Gero was frightened of 17 and 18 (rightfully so, seeing as they murdered him), so he made 19 less powerful. His own deficiency compared to 16 and the twins can probably be attributed to his age when he made himself a cyborg.

-Corey

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 10:18 pm

I'd have to check, but I believe Gero stated they were so disobedient because they were so powerful. That's why after #17 was made, #18 was "transformed" into a cyborg wielding less power. Stated in the back of one of the mangas.

Edit: Yep. I was right.

“#17: Too much attention was placed on its power capabilities, so it refused to take orders. Failure. (Cyborg)”

“#18: Although its power was suppressed- compared to #17- it did not follow orders. Failure. (Cyborg)”

Snail · Post by **Snail** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 10:37 pm

Hmm, shouldn't this be in the Dragonball Questions forum?

NEG · Post by **NEG** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 1:01 am

Tyro wrote:I'd have to check, but I believe Gero stated they were so disobedient because they were so powerful. That's why after #17 was made, #18 was "transformed" into a cyborg wielding less power. Stated in the back of one of the mangas.

Edit: Yep. I was right.

“#17: Too much attention was placed on its power capabilities, so it refused to take orders. Failure. (Cyborg)”

“#18: Although its power was suppressed- compared to #17- it did not follow orders. Failure. (Cyborg)”

Yet at the same time, Gero designed Cell for the purpose of absorbing 17 and 18, if and when 17/18 escaped? Or was Cell supposed to be born sometime anyway? (I've forgotten a lot of Cell saga details)

Its almost as if Gero knew he'd fail.

Kirbopher · Post by **Kirbopher** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 1:27 am

Ugh, not this argument again =__=

The FUNimation dub has still retained the fact that 17, 18 and 20 were all originally (and still mostly/partially) human beings. The fact that they use the term "Android" is simply because if they called certain characters one thing, and then other characters another thing, and they're ALL called by the same term in the Japanese version, Jinzoningen, it just makes it even more confusing. They probably didn't use "Artificial Human" (which wouldn't apply to 17, 18 and 20 anyway, because an artificial human isn't a cyborg either) because they either didn't think of it, or if it crossed their minds they figured "Android" simply sounded cooler for their demographic audience.

As for the actual subject, it probably all connects back to where Toriyama was originally going to end it after the Freeza arc. Since he had already gone past the heavens, and into outer space with alien fighters, they'd obviously return to Earth, and things need to be increasingly powerful as the story progresses. He hadn't touched upon the robot concept in a while, Cyborgs/Androids/Artificial Humans/Terminators/Jinzoningen/Super Robot Fighting desu GO! was mostly likely a cool concept at the time (possibly drawing off of Rockman/Megaman and Cyborg 009 for a little material), and Toriyama decided to go with that as the new concept for the villains of that arc.

At the same time, Cell, a character of the same venue that didn't even have any association with machinery, ended up being the big powerful villain for everyone in the end. His cells were made up of the most powerful characters in the series thus yet, including that (and most of which) of the DNA of the alien characters. So in a way, he was going back to the fact the intergalactic villains had most likely ended up being more powerful than the machine-made characters such as the Androids/Jinzoningen. Hell, even when they got to the Buu saga later, Babidi's henchmen were all organic, and not mechanical/mechanically altered in any sort of way.

Hopefully the terms I'm using won't also piss off anyone who doesn't like whatever either versions that they are, and aren't, watching.

Conan the SSJ · Post by **Conan the SSJ** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 1:28 am

NEG wrote:Yet at the same time, Gero designed Cell for the purpose of absorbing 17 and 18, if and when 17/18 escaped? Or was Cell supposed to be born sometime anyway? (I've forgotten a lot of Cell saga details)

Its almost as if Gero knew he'd fail.

From the info we're given by both Gero and Cell, Gero's plans for creating the "Artificial Humans" with the intent of defeating Goku dated back as early as the 22nd Budokai when he first planted the spy bug on Goku and his friends (thanks to some new animation of the Goku/Tien fight in a flashback) and evidently, Gero started on Cell's creation as far back as the battle with the Saiyans; where DNA started to get collected (Goku, Vegeta, Nappa, Piccolo, and probably the Saibamen [Cell's physical appearance seems to resemble them greatly] - as well as indicated by the anime Gohan, Kuririn, and Tien). It just goes to show ya', Gero really did spend a lot of planning and time in his obsession with killing Goku, knowing the old technology from the Red Ribbon Army was already defeated by him. Heck, as we see in some filler of the Kid Buu episodes and GT's Super 17 saga, even death wouldn't stop Gero from keeping his eyes on Goku with revenge in mind.

Come to think, I'd love to see a vid on YouTube showing all the deaths of Gero as shown in the many anime scenes (at least 2 different versions of his death are shown in flashbacks of Trunks'/Cell's time along with his present-day death), movie 7, and GT.

Castor Troy · Post by **Castor Troy** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 1:49 am

It's more of "Toriyama does what he wants" logic than anything. Even though we have nuclear weapons that can decimate just cities, Freeza has the power to destroy planets.

It's definitely plausible to see why Cell is so strong, but concerning the androids, I guess all we can say is Dr. Gero was one hell of a genius.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:41 am

Kirbopher wrote:The FUNimation dub has still retained the fact that 17, 18 and 20 were all originally (and still mostly/partially) human beings. The fact that they use the term "Android" is simply because if they called certain characters one thing, and then other characters another thing, and they're ALL called by the same term in the Japanese version, Jinzoningen, it just makes it even more confusing. They probably didn't use "Artificial Human" (which wouldn't apply to 17, 18 and 20 anyway, because an artificial human isn't a cyborg either) because they either didn't think of it, or if it crossed their minds they figured "Android" simply sounded cooler for their demographic audience.

And it works, too.
After all, "jinzô ningen" is what Dr. Gero called them, and it doesn't look like he was acknowledging their human origins in any way. As far as he's concerned, I think there's a good chance they're indeed androids that just happen to consist mostly of biological material.

it probably all connects back to where Toriyama was originally going to end it after the Freeza arc.

Source? ^^;

Kirbopher · Post by **Kirbopher** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 6:34 am

They've mentioned the different points that Toriyama was going to originally end the manga on the podcast a few times. I don't have a specific source, but I know people on this fourm will back up that fact.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:23 am

I don't see it as that far fetched, really. I can understand why others might, but you need to remember that the DBZ universe is different than ours. You need to look at things on scale to how their world works. In our universe, machines are pretty much superior to organics in stregnth, durability, etc. Since organics in the Z universe can go well beyond anything here, who's to say machine's can't do the same?

Hell, we saw in Dragonball that Gero had made two Androids (I think #8 was actually a Cyborg but I can't remember) that already exceeded average people by well more than most machines in shows/movies based more on our world. (Major Metalatron could kick the ass of any Terminator in any of the three movies, and Eighter was stronger than him.)

Pieter · Post by **Pieter** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 10:34 am

It's possible that Freeza has had stronger opponents in the past. It's not always strength that wins, Freeza could have blown earth up, killing any cyborg surpassing him. Let's not forget that abilities like Ginyu's body change and Freeza's ability to breath in space can grealy outmatch strength.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 1:59 pm

I've always assumed that the Androids were stronger than Freeza. Is there anything to suggest they're not?

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 2:05 pm

Freeza: Got his "100%" arse handed to him by a newly transformed Super Saiyan, and now soils himself when he sees one.
Android 18 (Weaker of the two): Rather easily smacked around SSj Vegeta, who had been training himself in the stage for some time.

No contest, from what I can tell.

Pieter · Post by **Pieter** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 2:40 pm

desirecampbell wrote:I've always assumed that the Androids were stronger than Freeza. Is there anything to suggest they're not?

I think the thread starter is aware that in the story they are obviously stronger. The question is if it should be possible since they are just cybors and Freeza was the strongest being in the universe.

In Trunks timeline they probably weren't stronger than Freeza, I remember Trunks saying that they were a lot weaker. That timeline didn't have any super-saiyans so that makes sense.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 2:51 pm

Pieter wrote: In Trunks timeline they probably weren't stronger than Freeza, I remember Trunks saying that they were a lot weaker. That timeline didn't have any super-saiyans so that makes sense.[/i]

Um, yeah, it did. Gohan and Trunks were both Super Saiyans, but got their heinies handed to them on a regular basis, although later Trunks said he could last pretty long and hold his own against them. But the normal timeline's 17 and 18 were a lot stronger.

Pieter · Post by **Pieter** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 3:12 pm

SSj Kaboom wrote:
Pieter wrote: In Trunks timeline they probably weren't stronger than Freeza, I remember Trunks saying that they were a lot weaker. That timeline didn't have any super-saiyans so that makes sense.[/i]
Um, yeah, it did. Gohan and Trunks were both Super Saiyans, but got their heinies handed to them on a regular basis, although later Trunks said he could last pretty long and hold his own against them. But the normal timeline's 17 and 18 were a lot stronger.

Oh yeah, sorry I made a mistake. It's a long time since I last saw it. For a moment I even forgot Trunks beat Freeza.

It could still be true though, Trunks beat a Freeza that didn't power-up, and in his timeline he had to fight both 'androids' at the same time (and so did Gohan). SSJ Trunks was less than SSJ Goku.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 3:53 pm

Kirbopher wrote:They've mentioned the different points that Toriyama was going to originally end the manga on the podcast a few times. I don't have a specific source, but I know people on this fourm will back up that fact.

I hope they will.

Kanzenshuu

Could the Cyborgs really be stronger than Freeza?

Could the Cyborgs really be stronger than Freeza?

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