Canon or not? That is the(my) question.

Anonymous Friend · Post by **Anonymous Friend** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:07 pm

If Dragonball Online does indeed come to the English speaking world (or get a Dragonball game where we can play against each other), we should chose sides on certain issues and then duke it out and the winners get to have their view point on the matter be the official Diazex view on it for a short time.

No debating with facts and no flame wars arising, we just take it to the virtual battlefield and solve these things like men .. or namekians or androids or whatever the heck Freeza is.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 10:01 pm

Anonymous Friend wrote:If Dragonball Online does indeed come to the English speaking world (or get a Dragonball game where we can play against each other), we should chose sides on certain issues and then duke it out and the winners get to have their view point on the matter be the official Diazex view on it for a short time.

That is an AWESOME idea, even if only for it's comedic value.

Party leader: "For the boxsets! ...uh, guys? Hello?"

Phenomenol · Post by **Phenomenol** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 5:45 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:That the first TV special is canonic (I'm not fond of the idea, myself, but hey), but the TV series as a whole being canonic isn't a "fact", it's an impossibility.

"Impossibility?" Toriyama creating stroy lines for filler is an impossibility? Or Toriyama and his editors ensuring continuity from the Anime?

Here............

TORIYAMA AKIRA SUPER INTERVIEW
From Daizenshuu Vol. 3, TV Animation Part 1.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Fusion with Animation

In talking about the story of Dragon Ball, the TV animation should not be left out. The TV anime has developed with the author, Toriyama Akira, and now, he himself speaks about this aspect of Dragon Ball.

I: Do you always have in mind the minute details for anime story plans that don't appear in the printed original?

TA: I usually come up with the plans that are supposed to capture the general gist of the story. For example, for the part of an episode that will skip to five years in the future, I create the story line, "These things must have happened within those five years."

Finally.........Akira Toriyama stating his "Last Anime."

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/20 ... inal-anime

Anime is in CONTINUITY which makes it canon.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 5:47 pm

Phenomenol wrote:
Olivier Hague wrote:That the first TV special is canonic (I'm not fond of the idea, myself, but hey), but the TV series as a whole being canonic isn't a "fact", it's an impossibility.
"Impossibility?" Toriyama creating stroy lines for filler is an impossibility? Or Toriyama and his editors ensuring continuity from the Anime?

That's not what I said. Can't you read?

The TV series as a whole being canonic isn't a "fact", it's an impossibility.

Phenomenol · Post by **Phenomenol** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 6:14 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:That's not what I said. Can't you read?
The TV series as a whole being canonic isn't a "fact", it's an impossibility.

I just showed you where Toriyama creates the "Story line" for the filler.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 6:15 pm

Phenomenol wrote:I just showed you where Toriyama creates the "Story line" for the filler.

I usually come up with the plans that are supposed to capture the general gist of the story.

Phenomenol · Post by **Phenomenol** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 6:27 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:[
I usually come up with the plans that are supposed to capture the general gist of the story.

Let me help you finish the quote........

I create the story line, "These things must have happened within those five years."

Post by **desirecampbell** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 6:40 pm

You're all making me sad :'(

desirecampbell wrote:I think a distinction should be made clear between 'canon' and 'one, workable, overall plot'. ...

... Canon has nothing to do with 'this contradicts this' or 'this wasn't written by so and so', "canon" simply refers to a collection of works considered to be the accurate versions of said works, or the most important in a specific field.

The fact is, there is no 'Dragon Ball canon'. Such a thing is simply non-existent. The author doesn't care, and has basically washed his hands of the whole thing. The production company just sends out everything as "official", so they're no help. The only option left is for literary scholars to decide what parts of the franchise are, and aren't, suitable as being studied and categorized as 'canonical'. That won't happen, if at all, for several decades - that's how literature works. Slowly.

Here's the bottom line: there is no 'canon'. No amount of argument will change this. If you would like to discuss the relevance or workability of a specific plot point, movie, or sequence then argue about that - whether or not that fits - not whether it's 'canon'.

Oh, and no 'move at light speed' arguments either. 'K?

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 7:40 pm

Phenomenol wrote:Let me help you finish the quote........

Sure, let's ignore the inconvenient parts.
Let's forget that we know for a fact that Toriyama didn't make all of the filler.
Let's forget that the TV series sometimes contradicts the manga.
Let's forget that the TV series sometimes refers to movies that should be set in "another dimension".
And then, I guess you'll be right.

desirecampbell wrote:Canon has nothing to do with 'this contradicts this' or 'this wasn't written by so and so', "canon" simply refers to a collection of works considered to be the accurate versions of said works, or the most important in a specific field.

Wikipedia wrote:In the context of a fictional universe, the canon comprises those novels, stories, films, etc., that are considered to be genuine or officially sanctioned, and those events, characters, settings, etc., that are considered to have existence within the fictional universe.

We all know that the movies, the games, etc are "official", so that's obviously not what we mean when we talk about "canon".

In order for a setting to appear cohesive, especially in fictions that contain multiple parts, both creators and audiences sometimes find it useful to define what has and has not "actually happened" in that universe.

Here we are.
Now, when the manga and the TV series contradict each other, which one is considered "the real story"? And what does that make the other one?

Again, I could understand people trying to argue that some parts of the TV filler are canonical. That's not exactly an easy claim to back up (unless you were a fly on the wall back then, or something), but hey... Yeah, maybe that part over there was entirely Toriyama's idea. And maybe he considers it did "actually happen", even if he didn't include it in his manga.
But the TV series as a whole? That's simply not possible.

Ex-Dubbie369 · Post by **Ex-Dubbie369** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 7:51 pm

Olivier Hague wrote: Here we are.
Now, when the manga and the TV series contradict each other, which one is considered "the real story"? And what does that make the other one?

Again, I could understand people trying to argue that some parts of the TV filler are canonical. That's not exactly an easy claim to back up (unless you were a fly on the wall back then, or something), but hey... Yeah, maybe that part over there was entirely Toriyama's idea. And maybe he considers it did "actually happen", even if he didn't include it in his manga.
But the TV series as a whole? That's simply not possible.

I would just consider the manga and anime as separate stories, just like we do with the dub and the japanese version of the show. Just as Conan has show that there can be an anime canon, the can be a manga canon that is separate from the anime and is different except for very general plot points.

Phenomenol · Post by **Phenomenol** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 7:59 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:Sure, let's ignore the inconvenient parts.
Let's forget that we know for a fact that Toriyama didn't make all of the filler.
Let's forget that the TV series sometimes contradicts the manga.
Let's forget that the TV series sometimes refers to movies that should be set in "another dimension".
And then, I guess you'll be right.

You just ignored Toriyama, I might as well ignore them since Toriyama did too.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 9:14 pm

Phenomenol wrote:You just ignored Toriyama

*sigh*
Whatever, man. Whatever.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 11:31 pm

Phenomenol wrote:
Olivier Hague wrote:Sure, let's ignore the inconvenient parts.
Let's forget that we know for a fact that Toriyama didn't make all of the filler.
Let's forget that the TV series sometimes contradicts the manga.
Let's forget that the TV series sometimes refers to movies that should be set in "another dimension".
And then, I guess you'll be right.
You just ignored Toriyama, I might as well ignore them since Toriyama did too.

Do you ever fail to sink to new lows?

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 11:49 pm

All these flames, and me without any marshmallows.

This is why I don't take part in these conversations, nor do I let myself care.

Phenomenol · Post by **Phenomenol** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 12:48 am

Okay, I am sorry If I have offended ANYONE in this thread! Oliver I like the way you debate, man I must say you are enjoyable to debate with.

Let's all kiss and make-up kay

How about we Ask VegettoEX what he thinks about the dragonball Z Anime being canon?