Opinion and discussion thread on Akira Toriyama.

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Re: Opinion and discussion thread on Akira Toriyama.

Post by Totamo » Mon Feb 13, 2017 2:59 pm

TheMikado wrote:
Totamo wrote:
TheMikado wrote:
I agree with this except for the fact that Toriyama is at his best when he has a dedicated editor to [b]drive him to better production and focus his concepts[/b] and at his worse when he is left as the unquestioned and infallible God of storytelling while only drawing up vague plot points.
Wat! These 2 sentences contradict each other so badly.

If Toriyama is at his best when someone is editing his work, then simply drawing up plot points should put this stuff far above previous work as those are way easier to edit You just have to connect the dots in the best way possible. If you can't make the best out of a plot outline. Thats on you.

Toriyama is a gag writer and he is definitely at his best when he is not trying to be serious, he says it himself I only want to entertain people, nothing more. have you read his many one shots. There full of creativity, action and comedy. Very lighthearted stuff and entertaining.

The man ain't flawless, but he has definitely great when he is in his natural element.

Case in point: Jaco vs Dragon Ball Minus. One was a fun little thing, the other was a serious backstory.

Guess which one came out better.
I fail to see the contradiction. Toriyama's work is better when he has an editor to work with. I personally feel its worse in terms of quality and cohesiveness when there limited back and forth exchange from an editor.
I fail to see the problem with those statements or how they contradict one another.
Because Super is basically Toriyama being edited, he gives a plot outline and character designs, toei and toyo fill in the rest. thats being edited.

I also said toriyama's one shots are very well done because they are in his nature and minus are things when he is not.

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Re: Opinion and discussion thread on Akira Toriyama.

Post by Soppa Saia People » Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:29 pm

Great writer and an amazing artist. When the guy tries, he's probably one of my favorite story tellers.
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Re: Opinion and discussion thread on Akira Toriyama.

Post by The gr » Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:57 pm

A great artist, an OK ish storyteller and amazing gag manga artist. Honestly toriyama is at his best when he is a gag manga artist,his work like Jaco the patrolman is charming and amazing and is way better than ROF and minus. he created the most memorable series with amazing moment like Majin Vegeta final atonement, Goku goes Super Saiyan, Goku reunites with Grandpa gohan, genkidama against Buu and the Saiyan/namek saga as whole
    but the man has flaws, toriyama admitted he's lazy, he never think outside of the box when using his character properly, he never thinks ahead of time and some of the fights he created in dbz are lazy
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    Re: Opinion and discussion thread on Akira Toriyama.

    Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:12 pm

    The man, the myth, the legend, Akira Toriyama deserves a medal for his talents.

    I don't know what to say about the guy that hasn't been said a hundred times before. He's a great storyteller, a great story adapter. There was a time when his drawings had a truly unique style the likes of which one had done before, his adaptivity is truly amazing. He has equal adaptive abilities when it comes to his storytelling, notorious for making shit up as he goes and making it out on the other side unscathed (a quality that unfortunately, we'll most likely never see in Dragon Ball again). His self-awareness and laziness remind me so much of myself, I can't help but adore him for it.

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    Re: Opinion and discussion thread on Akira Toriyama.

    Post by TheMikado » Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:58 pm

    Totamo wrote:
    TheMikado wrote:
    Totamo wrote: Wat! These 2 sentences contradict each other so badly.

    If Toriyama is at his best when someone is editing his work, then simply drawing up plot points should put this stuff far above previous work as those are way easier to edit You just have to connect the dots in the best way possible. If you can't make the best out of a plot outline. Thats on you.

    Toriyama is a gag writer and he is definitely at his best when he is not trying to be serious, he says it himself I only want to entertain people, nothing more. have you read his many one shots. There full of creativity, action and comedy. Very lighthearted stuff and entertaining.

    The man ain't flawless, but he has definitely great when he is in his natural element.

    Case in point: Jaco vs Dragon Ball Minus. One was a fun little thing, the other was a serious backstory.

    Guess which one came out better.
    I fail to see the contradiction. Toriyama's work is better when he has an editor to work with. I personally feel its worse in terms of quality and cohesiveness when there limited back and forth exchange from an editor.
    I fail to see the problem with those statements or how they contradict one another.
    Because Super is basically Toriyama being edited, he gives a plot outline and character designs, toei and toyo fill in the rest. thats being edited.

    I also said toriyama's one shots are very well done because they are in his nature and minus are things when he is not.
    Did you not read the part you bolded? I said "dedicated editor" nothing about general editing. There's nothing contradictory about it and I fail to see what that has to do with Super? You line of logic isn't making sense based on what I said.

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    Re: Opinion and discussion thread on Akira Toriyama.

    Post by Deathbringer » Mon Feb 13, 2017 6:19 pm

    I love reading his interviews in the translations section, he's so frank about everything. I also love some of the small stories that prove he does have a heart, especially the one about how drawing Arale with glasses made it hard work for him but when he read fan letters from young kids saying that seeing Arale made them more confident about wearing glasses he toughed it out and kept them.

    Also definitely love his art style, it's perfect for manga and it just makes things look so much cooler, it's hard to explain what works about it, something about how it can look simplistic but also really detailed like when he designs mechs, tanks and vehicles and it fits together so well. His artwork on games like Chrono Trigger, Dragon Quest and Tobal No. 1 is really good and I love how his style is unmistakably his own, no one else even tries to replicate it in an original work because it just belongs to him.

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    Akira Toriyama: Lazy Genius or Talentless Schmuck who got lucky?

    Post by DBZAOTA482 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 7:22 pm

    Can't believe I made this thread here.

    There's a lot of threads questioning the quality of his work lately so I made a thread to decide everything once and for all:

    Is Toriyama-sensei a lazy genius or a talentless schmuck who somehow lucked out in the manga industry?

    I'm one of the those that believe Toriyama-sensei is a genius... just a lazy one.

    I heard that Toriyama claims he spent much of his time watching TV and building plastic models when working on Dragon Ball while only devoting the last two days before deadline to actual work on a Dragon Ball chapter. People around him were amazed by the work ethic even genius required to pump out a week's worth of material in about a day and a half.

    However some people cite inconsistencies, plot-holes, and lack of adequate character development in the story as example of his lack of talent.

    What do you think?
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    Re: Akira Toriyama: Lazy Genius or Talentless Schmuck who got lucky?

    Post by ekrolo2 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 7:25 pm

    A lazy genius who got lucky a lot of the time. Seriously, I cannot name a lazier dude who's more inventive and succeeds in getting away with flying by the seat of his pants by somehow (with much less success as things move on into the later stuff) keeping some semblance of order and consistency, even a weird one as his.

    If anyone else tried this they'd have crumbled LONG before Toriyama eventually did.
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    Re: Akira Toriyama: Lazy Genius or Talentless Schmuck who got lucky?

    Post by successoroffate » Mon Feb 13, 2017 7:52 pm

    A mastermind like no other.
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    Re: Akira Toriyama: Lazy Genius or Talentless Schmuck who got lucky?

    Post by Bryesque » Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:19 pm

    I wouldn't call him lazy or remotely talentless... The guy is a massively talented serial storyteller, and his action scenes in particular are stunning, extremely kinetic and easy to follow. That takes a lot of skill. And considering the daunting schedule he had for the manga's run, I wouldn't call him lazy either. He drew about 15 pages a week for over 10 years straight. That is nuts. The writing level might have had its ups and downs, but that's to be expected with that kind of relentless schedule.

    He's definitely taken it a lot easier in the years since the original manga ended, but he's more than earned it.

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    Re: Opinion and discussion thread on Akira Toriyama.

    Post by floofychan333 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:37 pm

    Akira Toriyama is no talentless schmuck. He's an extremely good artist and an excellent writer when he wants to be. He wouldn't have gotten lazy as often if people hadn't eaten it up the first time he got lazy.
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    Re: Opinion and discussion thread on Akira Toriyama.

    Post by successoroffate » Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:32 pm

    I've just realized that I commented twice...my bad.
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    Re: Opinion and discussion thread on Akira Toriyama.

    Post by Cipher » Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:02 am

    Akira Toriyama might actually be a genius when it comes to character design and the craft of comics in general. He has an incredible eye for what will flow on the page, in terms of both humor and action. Most artists are lucky enough to master the execution of one or the other, and are lucky again if they can manage to weave a compelling narrative on top of that. Editor interviews have testified over the years to what a refreshing philosophy he brought to the largely static approach to illustration that plagued JUMP at the time (further honed under the critique of Torishima).

    We make fun of him for being lazy, but his talents are enormous.

    More than that, though, you can tell that even at his most burnt out with the process of writing and drawing a weekly series (which let's not forget takes an unfathomable amount of creative and physical effort), he's always out for his own amusement. That sort of enthusiasm is infectious.

    From a writing standpoint, it always strikes me how, despite working within completely whimsical worlds and focusing on comedy and action genres that could easily obfuscate character-writing or narrative momentum, Toriyama always manages to find compelling arcs and treat his casts sincerely. It's common to see fans praise Dragon Ball's choice to age its characters realistically, but beyond that, even at its silliest, it never treats them as anything less than real people with their own motivations. No one is reduced to a joke or a stereotype. Not even Oolong or Kame-Sennin. Not even in Dr. Slump, a full-on wacky gag manga.* The humor very rarely targets characters as the butt of jokes, except when they're set up for a moral pratfall, coming instead from the interactions between them and breakneck pace of absurd dialogue exchanges. The dialogue and relatively dry humor are other elements of Toriyama's writing often overlooked, partially because they're almost invisible compared to his more overt visual jokes. VegettoEX has written (spoken?) a few times about how much he loves a one-panel dialogue gag in Jaco -- "I know what you are. You're a girl and that's a dog." -- and that's very emblematic of Toriyama's approach to humor and character-writing. It's funny. It's authentic. It's funny because it's authentic.

    But yeah. Toriyama is one of my favorite comic creators of all time. I think he's fantastic. My favorite one-shot is "Pink," for what it's worth, which is about as pure an injection of Toriyama's sensibilities -- the cute, the well-characterized, the idiosyncratic mix of genre inspirations, the action and the humor -- as you're likely to find in the span of forty pages.

    *Coincidentally, for anyone wondering, this is why I hated Super's baseball episode and argued vehemently for it being off the mark from Toriyama's sense of humor.
    Bryesque wrote:I wouldn't call him lazy or remotely talentless... The guy is a massively talented serial storyteller, and his action scenes in particular are stunning, extremely kinetic and easy to follow. That takes a lot of skill.
    Absolutely. It's almost unfathomable that, coming from a background in pure comedy, he managed to more or less develop an entirely new visual language for fast-paced action -- one whose influence is felt three decades later -- and did it all while plotting, scripting and drawing a weekly series, designing iconic characters, and providing ancillary art for other projects. Sometimes he was drawing two manga at once.

    And as much as Dragon Ball was an editorially mandated gambit coming off Dr. Slump's success and Toriyama's interest in martial arts media, he absolutely fought for what was right for the series, including the abilities to age Goku up and shift into a more angular style befitting his evolving visual language for action. There's a real verve to it.
    emperior wrote:I just want to say I love his recent designs for Dragon Ball Super and I also like his current art style.
    I like his current art style too. I wish Super looked anything like it.
    Last edited by Cipher on Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:40 am, edited 12 times in total.

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    Re: Akira Toriyama: Lazy Genius or Talentless Schmuck who got lucky?

    Post by sintzu » Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:11 am

    DBZAOTA482 wrote:
    Is Toriyama-sensei a lazy genius or a talentless schmuck who somehow lucked out in the manga industry?

    I heard that Toriyama claims he spent much of his time watching TV and building plastic models when working on Dragon Ball while only devoting the last two days before deadline to actual work on a Dragon Ball chapter. People around him were amazed by the work ethic even genius required to pump out a week's worth of material in about a day and a half.

    However some people cite inconsistencies, plot-holes, and lack of adequate character development in the story as example of his lack of talent. What do you think?
    It took him 15 years weekly chapters to finish both DB and Dr.Slump so he's anything but lazy. Both series were very successful so he's definately talented or otherwise he wouldn't have been able to keep it up. DB and Z in particular is one of the biggest entertainment brands in the world so he's a genius.

    Another thing that proves he's not lazy.

    The original DB is 520 chapters long, any story that long being worked on by one person is going to have some minor issues here and there. Unlike other long Shonen like Naruto, Bleach and YuYu Hakusho, DB didn't fall apart in its last arc. you could tell by reading the manga that he was very tired of working on it but that didn't stop him from giving it his all to insure the story ended on a high note so if that doesn't say he's talented then nothing will.
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    Re: Opinion and discussion thread on Akira Toriyama.

    Post by Faustus » Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:36 am

    Can I just interject and say I wish we stopped lobbing this "lazy" charge at Toriyama already? The guy toiled over the manga week on week, getting as little as "twenty minutes [of sleep] in the span of six days" at the taxing and intoxicating height of DB's success. And that, miraculously, for ten straight years, carving out room all the while to design for Dragon Quest as well as for his own little one-shot ventures. Don't take his own self-deprecation too seriously. He's being interviewed. It's either humor or humility, or both; the man's a laborer with few peers -- besides being a genuine talent in his own right, which has been excellently laid out above me and needs no repeating.

    EDIT: Whoops. Just saw Cipher already more or less covered all this above in his edit. So yeah.
    Last edited by Faustus on Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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    Re: Opinion and discussion thread on Akira Toriyama.

    Post by Cipher » Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:40 am

    Just to let his output speak for itself, here's a great repository of Toriyama artwork from various projects and various eras.

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    Re: Opinion and discussion thread on Akira Toriyama.

    Post by precita » Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:53 am

    It's sad that Japanese storytellers get so little recognition or respect in the west. It's like if Toriyama was born in the U.S. and he created Dragonball as an American comic...he'd be championed in the same manner as Stan Lee and Jack Kirby. Or even Stan Sakai if you want to use a similar Japanese storyteller having created/written all of Usagi Yojimbo, very similar to Japanese manga artists.

    I guess it's a culture clash. Dragonball came out in Japan at the same time Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles stormed the west. Both started in the mid-80's and completely changed their landscapes. Amazing how the Mirage TMNT comics, as well as the original cartoon, did for the U.S. what Toriyama and Dragonball were doing in Japan at literally the EXACT SAME TIME in the mid to late 80's.

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    Re: Opinion and discussion thread on Akira Toriyama.

    Post by Cipher » Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:59 am

    precita wrote:I guess it's a culture clash. Dragonball came out in Japan at the same time Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles stormed the west. Both started in the mid-80's and completely changed their landscapes. Amazing how the Mirage TMNT comics, as well as the original cartoon, did for the U.S. what Toriyama and Dragonball were doing in Japan at literally the EXACT SAME TIME in the mid to late 80's.
    As someone who's a huge fan of both, I wish Mirage TMNT left as big an imprint as Dragon Ball. Unfortunately, apart from heralding a minor black-and-white indie action comics boom and launching the greater family-friendly TMNT franchise, the series doesn't seem to have all that large a historical footprint. Certainly its creators are nowhere near as celebrated as anyone else in your post.

    Of course that's probably because Mirage TMNT is sad and weird and hardly tries to appeal to anyone, as opposed to Dragon Ball's appealing to literally everyone.

    Anyway, the comparison to Kirby et. all is interesting. It isn't just Toriyama. Manga artists hardly seem to get their due among Western comics fans. Although there are plenty of manga fans who won't touch Western comics either. A weird divide seems to exist in popular consciousness, even though it's all the same medium.

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    Re: Akira Toriyama: Lazy Genius or Talentless Schmuck who got lucky?

    Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Tue Feb 14, 2017 8:01 am

    DBZAOTA482 wrote:Is Toriyama-sensei a lazy genius or a talentless schmuck who somehow lucked out in the manga industry?
    I think he can be brilliant when he wants to be (or can be bothered to be). Obviously, we here acknowledge that even if Dragon Ball and Dr. Slump aren't the most cohesive or impactful, or risky stories, they're certainly one of a kind (His shorter stories are hit & miss for me). Toriyama was also amazing at coming up with new ideas on the spot; some of them great, some of them pretty mediocre. Either way, he's the best I've ever seen when it comes to adaptability.

    I'm one who doesn't like Toriyama's newer work, I don't necessarily think that it's because he's necessarily less talented, but rather, he's a long time removed from the original story and/or he isn't putting much effort in (I personally think it's both). They lack the creative juice that old DB had. As for the reasons, it's the same thing I've been saying for ages; his new stories up to the FT Arc are so basic, they would have been completed in less than 10 episodes if Toei's writers hadn't made them meander for episodes on end. They're criminally simple (and sometimes even less cohesive than his old work), and the show suffers for it, which is why I've long taken the position that Toei should have kept making movies. His modern stories are demonstrably more enjoyable in that format.
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    Re: Akira Toriyama: Lazy Genius or Talentless Schmuck who got lucky?

    Post by Ki Breaker » Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:35 am

    DBZAOTA482 wrote:Is Toriyama-sensei a lazy genius or a talentless schmuck who somehow lucked out in the manga industry?
    I thought this to myself so many times :lol: :lol:
    Always arrived at the answer, he's a little bit of both..
    We can't argue there needs to be luck for an artist to shine at that level, I saw many brilliant stories whose writers aren't famous at all
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