Freeza's power levels?

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 6:41 pm

Phenomenol wrote:Kurrin flying back from place to place with an Aura is usally just ki boosting his speed for that time. The impression has always been a power-up before a good battle and after that power-up the Z warrior is ALWAYS in FULL power.

It really is a simple concept seen throughout the series.

And you conviently ignored the refrence to Goku Vs. the Ginyu's. His power went from his supressed 1,000 (or was it 5,000?) up to a high enough level to dodge Jeice and Burter's blasts without actually being seen. Or felt. He powered up there, many times, with no indication it happened. Thus the bolded portion is proven false.

Conan the SSJ · Post by **Conan the SSJ** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 6:41 pm

Dayspring wrote:Fair enough, but you can't look for original, concrete answers from the anime and expect it to apply to both. For example, Goku's kaioken auras make a liar out of Kaio and leave it open for debate in the anime as to whether or not Goku's using Kaioken x10 from the beginning or not. There's no such ambiguity in the manga.

Same thing with Super Saiyan 2.

Phenomenol · Post by **Phenomenol** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 6:49 pm

Xyex wrote:And you conviently ignored the refrence to Goku Vs. the Ginyu's. His power went from his supressed 1,000 (or was it 5,000?) up to a high enough level to dodge Jeice and Burter's blasts without actually being seen. Or felt. He powered up there, many times, with no indication it happened. Thus the bolded portion is proven false.

I didn't ignore anything concerning Goku vs. The Ginyu's. Goku did not fully power up against Jeese and Butta his "Battle Power raises suddenly at the moment of attack." That is not a FULL power-up like Goku does against Captain Ginyu. That type of power-up is what I was reffering to.

Dragon Ball Daisuki · Post by **Dragon Ball Daisuki** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:08 pm

Let me run this by you:

We don't know all the rules to this universe (it is a Toriyama universe, after all), but is it fair to say, from what we know, that auras are typically present when an individual is "at his limit"? For instance, nearly every time a ki attack is executed, there's some sort of aura representation. So when Goku does the 20x Kamehame-ha against 50% Freeza, the ki is visible because it's such a drawn-out attack. Just a punch, though? It would be exhausting to carry all that ki around you at once when you're not really going to use it until the last second.

I think Goku's battle against Vegeta demonstrates this nicely. Or, for a later example, what about the fiasco with Super-Saiya-jin 3.

Think of a car that can go from zero to sixty in a quarter of a second. If you could, why wouldn't you wait as long as you could before accelerating? Otherwise you'd be wasting gas. Or burning out your engine.

Does any of that make sense? =P

Phenomenol · Post by **Phenomenol** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:35 pm

What you are reffering to is not the actual power-up but the ATTACKS that the characters use which multiplies their power for THAT certain attack (Goku/Piccolo against Raditz and Vegeta).

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:48 pm

Hee, the "aura=powerup, afterward=power maintained" thing instantly made me think video games. Whiel I don't see that as a probable source of argument (because we're definitely not talking about those), it got me thinking of a response, so... ^_^.

To quote Raditz... "He can increase his power by focusing it into one place". Or... maybe it's a paraphrase.
So on the one hand, we have battle power being drawn out for attacks, and on the other we have over all power boosts from Transformations and techniques like Kaioken... For attacks they're focused on one area, and for Kaioken-style techniques the body and ki must have some sort of ... ... *can't think of a way to say this that doesn't involve making up words, which probably means I'm on the wrong track*. And transformations we just don't understand.

I tend to think KaioKen doesn't randomly create new energy, but rather gives the user more perfect use of what is already there... like, base is running at 15 Miles per gallon, and KaioKen is around 30... Or maybe that analogy sucks, but yeah... my point is that we have multiple types of powering up, and I'd imagine that a small amount of "generic boosting" might be involved with start-of-fight auras... or maybe it's something else (since we don't have a major comparison for this, even falling back on Earthly practices that are somewhat similar in principle).

But yeh... I somehow think that energy gathering and such of the generic power up kind are actually a nuissance to hold and continue doing other things, other than the case of special techniques (Kaioken) and transformations. I tend to theorize that Saiyans are designed for better energy control than humans, hence SSJ (1 and 2 at least) have to do with how they maintain energy states differently... but I digress.

Yeah, I don't even know what my point is... but in the course of that I was reminded of something else in the same vein that bugged me elsewhere I'm going to have to write a paper on Energy manipulation in DBZ one of these days... (Woah, I just realized that the oldest file on my win98 post resurrection is my attempt at writing such a paper in 2002... which, naturally, isn't very awesome.)

Phenomenol · Post by **Phenomenol** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 12:30 pm

Godo wrote:I wonder how Goku's base powerlevel could have gone from 90,000 to 3,000,000. That's 33 times increase of of his powerlevel. Noone in Dragonball has had such a huge zenkai before.
That's why I believe more in the 15,000,000 powerlevel of Goku.
I don't give a crap about what the Daizenshuu says.

It is Son Goku the hero.

Goku did fight a lot ever since his arrival on Namek and it obviously made him much more powerful. Please don't ignore the official/canon Daizenshuu's it is uncouth to do so.

Godo · Post by **Godo** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 5:18 pm

Phenomenol wrote:
Godo wrote:I wonder how Goku's base powerlevel could have gone from 90,000 to 3,000,000. That's 33 times increase of of his powerlevel. Noone in Dragonball has had such a huge zenkai before.
That's why I believe more in the 15,000,000 powerlevel of Goku.
I don't give a crap about what the Daizenshuu says.
It is Son Goku the hero.

Goku did fight a lot ever since his arrival on Namek and it obviously made him much more powerful. Please don't ignore the official/canon Daizenshuu's it is uncouth to do so.

I read fiction to make it evolve in my fantasy. Therefore I don´t need the Daizenshuu to tell me how to interpret the story. It´s the story and nothing more. The story ended at the last chapter, not in the Daizenshuu.
What the Daizenshuu says is irrelevant for me. For me, Goku has the powerlevel of 15,000,000.

Phenomenol · Post by **Phenomenol** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 5:23 pm

The story ended with the same people who did Dragonball Daizenshuu! Bird studios (Toriyama assistants).

I think they would actually have more insight than you would.

Godo · Post by **Godo** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 6:18 pm

Phenomenol wrote:The story ended with the same people who did Dragonball Daizenshuu! Bird studios (Toriyama assistants).

I think they would actually have more insight than you would.

Did you know that many facts in the Daizenshuu wasn´t mentioned in the story and that they are what I don´t acknowledge?
You act like a Jehova´s witness trying to make me one of you.
Mind your own business I say.

Phenomenol · Post by **Phenomenol** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 7:29 pm

Whatever, do as you please; your still wrong.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 7:34 pm

I'm with Godo on this one.

::Walks away whistling "Cha La"::

Dragon Ball Daisuki · Post by **Dragon Ball Daisuki** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 8:52 pm

Phenomenol wrote:What you are reffering to is not the actual power-up but the ATTACKS that the characters use which multiplies their power for THAT certain attack (Goku/Piccolo against Raditz and Vegeta).

That's true. And the more I think about it, this is an interpretation issue, as was brought out. But how are "ki attacks" performed? To me, they are two very closely related subjects... to the point that they're interwoven. The fact that "using" these attacks multiplies one's power almost validates this.

I tend to agree with caejones on the function of Kaiouken. It's just a means used to bring out more of the ki that's already there (remember: in the manga, the Kaiouken aura was originally white, same as the standard "power-up" ... perhaps this idea of fighting "at your limit" evolved...?); if not, then where does the ki come from? There would need to be another source of power. One's soul? Interesting idea, but I'm not sure it's ever mentioned.

As for the Jehovah's Witnesses crack... I'm a Jay-Dub. :[
So I'm going to beat the bad rap and not be an ass by refusing to be open-minded about this. Anyone aware of any supplemental information on Kaiouken? What the energy is, where it comes from? Or ki attacks for that matter? That's what I'd be interested in heraing.

:}

Phenomenol · Post by **Phenomenol** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:16 pm

In the Dragonball universe Ki IS spirit/soul which comes from within oneself. Somehow the Drgonball characters are able to turn it into form through energy. This is very obvious throughout the series.

Dragon Ball Daisuki · Post by **Dragon Ball Daisuki** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:10 am

Easy bud, just trying to get the ball rolling. ;P

Though, when I think about it... soul/spirit is probably different than ki. For instance, when the villains die, they keep their souls but lose their bodies. That's why they don't retain their incredible powers. Otherwise, ol' Enma would have a hell of a time keeping everyone in line! Ki must be the product of the body and the spirit somehow...?

Holy shit I'm off-topic. Um, at any rate ... did you have opinions on any of my other questions?

Phenomenol · Post by **Phenomenol** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:25 am

Hope I didn't seem to harsh?

Yeah, Kaioken sems to increase speed, strength and the senses. Goku just augments his own powers really but Kaioken can damage the users body.

Godo · Post by **Godo** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:41 am

Phenomenol wrote:Whatever, do as you please; your still wrong.

You think that I would listen to someone that cannot even type english correctly, even though he lives in an english-speaking country?

Post by **desirecampbell** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:56 am

Godo wrote:You think that I would listen to someone that cannot even type English correctly, even though he lives in an English-speaking country?

English. With a capital E.

I'm a grammar Nazi.

Um, yeah, power levels. Too high? Maybe. Generally good, reasonable levels? Maybe. Does pinning down exact numbers really matter? Not really.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 4:45 am

This is an extremely extensive and thorough analysis of the whole debate at hand. I think it's worth a good read.

Godo · Post by **Godo** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 5:18 am

desirecampbell wrote:
Godo wrote:You think that I would listen to someone that cannot even type English correctly, even though he lives in an English-speaking country?
English. With a capital E.

I'm a grammar Nazi.
.

The difference is that I have not ever lived in an English-speaking country...
End of off-topic posts for me now.