Goku's speech to Krillin.

[Kirbopher]

So...Goku vs. Vegeta, the first fight.

After putting it off for a while since I wanted to watch it all the way through, I've FINALLY seen it again after all this time on my Season 1 orange brick boxset. Man, if Toriyama DID get the chance to end Dragonball earlier like he wanted, and this was one of the final fights in the series, this would've been even MORE incredible.

It's only 6 episodes long, which is a LOT less than people exaggerate it to be (the Saiyan Saga overall is a lot longer, obviously), and enough different things happen within all six of those episodes to leave you wanting more, and make them not seem so much like the "How many saiyans does it take to screw in a light bulb? Just one, but it'll take him 20 episodes to do it!" type of feeling, honestly. The animation's actually INCREDIBLY good, more so in certain parts than others, but overall the entire battle is kickass.

One thing I did specifically, was during the last scene with Krillin about to finish off Vegeta, I watched the English dub (w/ Japanese BGM) with the subtitles for the original Japanese dialogue. Gokus's speech to get him to NOT kill Vegeta is VERY different between the two. It probably comes from bias that I've seen the dub first, and I KNOW that the original is always the final say in what the story is about (for ANY anime, especially ones changed as much in the US as DBZ), but I think I honestly liked Goku's dub speech more.

In Japanese, he was essentially repeating the same thing over and over about how he wanted to fight Vegeta again and get stronger and stronger...that's great and all, and it certainly rings true about the series as time goes on, but with Toriyama's line of thinking by then, it wouldn't've happened again on the Namek Saga (it wouldn't've happened until ALL THE WAY until the Buu arc). Goku sounded like he BARELY gave a shit about how all of his friends were brutally murdered by these two psychopaths, which Krillin blatantly points out to him. Then Krillin, being too nice as usual, complies with this request...what?

In English, Goku takes a spin on what Krillin says about their friends, and uses Piccolo as an example of someone who could be shown the light. This DID ring true later, because Vegeta eventually joined forces with Krillin and Gohan on Namek (and originally, Toriyama was going to end Dragonball with the final fight against Freeza on the exploding Namek). He DID say "Don't forget...I'm a Saiyan too..." to show that it was partially because he related to him, but to the extent that wanting to fight him again would blind him from what's ACTUALLY IMPORTANT. The fact that he wanted to show him that there's another way, and that he believes that there's good within everything, for ME, seemed like SUCH a better theme than the original. Nothing to do with voice acting, music, or any of the such (because I like both sides of that on DBZ's end equally), but from a storytelling standpoint, I liked what they did in english a lot more...

Any thoughts?

[Kaboom]

Oh, that's just great. Give me a hankering to watch the season set THE DAY AFTER I let a co-worker borrow it. Thanks.

Either way, I do still remember the scene in question, the dub especially, and I agree. This is one of those all-too-rare instances when the dub improved upon something with it's script.

[Dragon Ball Daisuki]

Oh, I remember this.

I can't remember what the dialogue was like with the Ocean cast, but on the re-dub... superb. It's true, the right thing to do would be to let the bastard go, not heartlessly stab him in the back and leave him to bleed to death in the middle of nowhere. In any case, the psychological effects of this sort of defeat were apparent early on. Even though it was really Kuririn and Gohan who defeated him, something about the manner in which he was defeated causes Vegeta to relate the whole experience to "Kakarotto".

But at the same time, I LIKE the fact that Goku has this selfish character flaw... in some odd way, it gives him humanity. I like the idea that Kuririn was right and Goku was wrong. Moreso, I like the idea that Goku has this sort of darker "Saiya-jin nature" to contend with. It sort of foreshadows Super Siaya-jin, telling Gohan to "Get out of here before I kill you!" or something to that extent. That somewhere, under this benevloent saviour-figure, we have this vicous guy who's thirsting for mayhem and bloodlust and the thrill of the hunt. I think it fleshes Goku out a bit.

But if the dialogue was being prepared for a remake, or a movie or something, yeah... I would definitely have a good mix of both speeches, with a slant toward the re-dub. But all the original reasons should still be there. Goku's a Saiya-jin dammit, and he should be relating to Vegeta as a Saiya-jin!

But he should still relate to Kuririn as a human.

That's the greatest strength of this character's duality.

[DaemonCorps]

Although the dub script is drastically different than the Japanese one, I like how the dub made Goku more of a pure-hearted and noble simpleton and less of a battle-junkie um... simpleton. Though if memory serves right, it seemed like there was quite an audience in these forums that was against stuff like this this in the dub. I personally like them since, unlike things like the unnecessary comic relief lines, these "heroic" speeches actually do a good job of fleshing out characters and making a better point of the theme of friendship and forgiveness in the series. Sure, that theme is still present in the Japanese script, but I don't think it's as apparent.

Another good example of this in the dub would be Goku's other speech to Vegeta to try and persuade him to fuse with him. In the sub, Goku just keeps repeating how they're too weak to beat Boo with their current strength. The dub takes a different route and has Goku bring up just how many people, their friends included, have died and that it's ridiculous that Vegeta is putting so much in his Saiyan pride instead of realizing the friends surrounding him (awww):

"We owe that to our teammates. Our families, Vegeta! Our friends! Look, you've always talked about our Saiyan race, how we're the last of a mighty people. Well it's time we accept we're starting a new race-- one that can be just as strong, just as proud! But not if we're caught up so much of our old birthrights to see what we have in front of us! We've lost our old race, Vegeta! Let's not lose this one, too!"

... not that I hate the Japanese script. I just have a feeling that we're losing something through the translation since as mentioned, it does tend to get repetitive and simplistic at times.

[theoriginalbilis]

All of you make very interesting points. Both of the Japanese & the re-dubbed versions of these scenes are vastly different, but similar is a couple ways. They both still retain the fact that Goku wants to fight Vegeta again, but it's emphasized more in the Japanese than the dub. Whereas in the dub, the whole redemption/compassion theme is emphasized, but downplayed in the Japanese version.

At least this dub of that scene is miles better than the Ocean version, which was horribly shortened.

For the record, I prefer the Japanese version of DBZ (since the seiyuu work is amazing), but I've been really impressed with the quality of the English VA performances (especially in the video games and the Season 1-2 re-dubs) as of lately. The English script can still be cheesy & inaccurate at times, but there are scenes like this one (and a few moments during the Cell Games-Buu arcs) that really shine and do show good writing and bring out character personalities a bit. I like both the dub & Japanese versions.

That being said, I do like the selfish-hick Goku over the superhero Goku that the dub makes him out to be.

- Bilis

[Ozma15]

Personally, I prefer the selfish, 'I want to fight him again' reasoning. I like that Goku has this flaw, I think it's a very interesting one. I think it evolves, too, as the story progresses. It culminates in the Cell Games, where Goku believes that, since he enjoys a good fight, Gohan will, too. He actually gives Cell a senzu bean. I mean, it's one thing to give one to Piccolo, who is bound to Kami and the fight is over, anyway. But Cell? In the middle of a fight? This is a big mistake.

A mistake that Goku doesn't seem to learn from. He knows that Gohan doesn't enjoy fighting, and is still surprised to find out that yeah, he's quit training. When Goten's about that age, Goku's forcing him to train and enter the tournament, even though he clearly doesn't want to. You have to wonder if he favors Pan over his sons just because she has the same interest in fighting.

Then there's the point that Goku is almost disregarding the fact that (while Vegeta didn't actually kill anybody except Nappa and a Saibaiman), he certainly facilitated the deaths of their friends and the countless unlucky stiffs that got the shaft because of the 'one resurrection at a time' rule. Well, yes, he is. Go ahead to the Buu saga. It doesn't matter if Buu kills them, we can always wish them back with the DBs. He says something similar to Gohan during the Cell Games, as well, doesn't he? Something like 'stop holding back, it doesn't matter what happens because we can fix it.' No, Goku really doesn't seem to care if people die--so long as they can be wished back. And Kuririn tells him there may be a way to do that, even though Piccolo and Kami are dead, and Chaozu has been wished back to life before.

Add to it that Goku's never really had any problems dropping everyone and everything to train, and it's a very interesting little character arc. Yes, Goku is always merciful in his fights. Yes, Goku's a hero--but is he a hero for the right reasons? I might be going way too deep into the show, though. I just think it's a better story than Goku, Warrior for Justice and Righteousness and all that. I don't know. Blame it on too much Yu Yu Hakusho, but shady motives and doing the right thing for the wrong reasons (or the wrong thing for the right reasons) is appealing to me.

[MajinVejitaXV]

Oh, Jesus...

I'm sorry, but I'm gonna be honest. The dub is still horrible and still makes unnecessary changes (i.e. - Vejita's "Freeza stole me from my daddy! He's the reason I would have ripped out your heart and eaten it in front of you up until 3 minutes ago!" has become Goku's "Please spare him, in the Buu saga he'll redeem himself after I've died again!" ).

LAWL FORESHADOWING >_>;;

-Corey

[Kirbopher]

I remember the speech to Vegeta about fusing, that's a very similiar point as well, actually...

I don't necassarily think those changes are more so making Goku look like a stereotypical "American superhero", I think that both being stupid and selfish about wanting to overcome someone else and be stonger, AND wanting to let someone else have a chance to try again, are both pretty realistic. That and, unless this is ALSO dub-only, does he not give the offer to Ginyu, Freeza and possibly some of the later villains, a shot at quitting now and not continuing their "evil ways"? In a way, he actually brought upon that offer to Vegeta in a more subtle way with Nappa after beating the living shit out of him, with "He's in bad shape, you should probably take him somewhere he can get better." as in, "go away? Please?"

[Shenron]

Another good example of this in the dub would be Goku's other speech to Vegeta to try and persuade him to fuse with him. In the sub, Goku just keeps repeating how they're too weak to beat Boo with their current strength. The dub takes a different route and has Goku bring up just how many people, their friends included, have died and that it's ridiculous that Vegeta is putting so much in his Saiyan pride instead of realizing the friends surrounding him

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the manga, that's when Goku tells Vegeta that Buu has killed everybody, especially Trunks and Bulma, that he convinces Vegeta to fuse.

[omegacwa]

Although I like the dub and original Japanese versions pretty much the same (excluding the movies, which I greatly perfer the japanese versions, why didn't they just have falcouner do the music for the movies? The real bands ruined it), I have to say I prefer Goku's Japanese speech. I prefer it simply because he mentions that Vegeta was vastly his superior, something they constantly avoided in the English version, I guess having a villain being stronger than a hero is a no no, well at least in Vegeta's case.

I always felt like Vegeta's power was down played for whatever reason. I read a interview once where Toryiama said that he disliked Vegeta, so I guess that's why he was always given the screws.

[Sebastian (SB)]

In Japanese, he was essentially repeating the same thing over and over about how he wanted to fight Vegeta again and get stronger and stronger...that's great and all, and it certainly rings true about the series as time goes on, but with Toriyama's line of thinking by then, it wouldn't've happened again on the Namek Saga (it wouldn't've happened until ALL THE WAY until the Buu arc). Goku sounded like he BARELY gave a shit about how all of his friends were brutally murdered by these two psychopaths, which Krillin blatantly points out to him. Then Krillin, being too nice as usual, complies with this request...what?

I disagree with everything you just said. Now here's why. Regarding the Japanese version, I loved Nozawa's delivery in the exchange of words (I realized that's not what you're arguing about). Sure Son Goku was selfish, but that by far means he didn't give a damn about his friends. He so proved that through his battle with Nappa. I vaguely remember Son Goku commenting to Kuririn he would become the same as Vegita if he were to ever kill him. That's what really struck me in that whole scene & the music very much amplifies that very well. A theme of forgiveness.

The English dialogue added uneccessary banter about how he would become friends with them later on like Piccolo. It was so full of the heroic cheese that FUNi loves to put on these characters & spoilers, it was utterly unforgiveable. Yes it's quite obvious, that premonitions of enemies becoming friends is a common theme in Dragon Ball. But why say so early in the story? Great job FUNi, now we'll know what'll happen in some parts of the story later on. Derr.

Like Daemon Corps mentioned, I was the one that had mentioned this scene a while back regarding how horrible I thought it was in the English version.

[Super Sonic]

I thought the scene was ok, though they foreshadowed a lot. Y'all who want something truer to Goku's selfish wish, play the story version of Budokai 1. It's truer there.

[SonEric84]

I hate it when they change things...the whole purpose of "uncut" is to show it as it was originally meant to be seen. (heh, widescreen anyone? ) Seriously though, it sucks that they spoiled the fact that Vegeta would later join up with the good guys. I would almost say I prefer the original ocean speech to that. However, it was decent for what it was, just not for DBZ because it wasn't the original script.

[Thanos6]

Sometimes I wonder if Selfish Goku (seen here, when he gives Cell the senzu, and a few other places) weren't Toriyama deliberately trying to get us to dislike him so we'd like Gohan, who literally IS a superhero, more.

[desirecampbell]

Sometimes I wonder if Selfish Goku (seen here, when he gives Cell the senzu, and a few other places) weren't Toriyama deliberately trying to get us to dislike him so we'd like Gohan, who literally IS a superhero, more.

Maybe. I know I'm not the only one who desperately wanted that Great Saiyaman bit to be extended. Gohan + school antics + secret identity = win.

[Ozma15]

Sometimes I wonder if Selfish Goku (seen here, when he gives Cell the senzu, and a few other places) weren't Toriyama deliberately trying to get us to dislike him so we'd like Gohan, who literally IS a superhero, more.

Certainly worked on me! *Gohan fangirl*

Seriously, though. It makes me wonder when Goku starts doing things like that.

[SaiyaMel]

Sometimes I wonder if Selfish Goku (seen here, when he gives Cell the senzu, and a few other places) weren't Toriyama deliberately trying to get us to dislike him so we'd like Gohan, who literally IS a superhero, more.

Certainly worked on me! *Gohan fangirl*

Seriously, though. It makes me wonder when Goku starts doing things like that.

It sure didn't on me.. Goku's still a cool guy in my book. but yea,, stuff like giving cell the senzu, is kinda wacked...still has me kinda puzzled..

And for some of the aforementioned reasons in this topic - i still find it questionable of Goku remaining "pure of heart" into his adulthood...

[Rocketman]

Blame it on too much Yu Yu Hakusho, but shady motives and doing the right thing for the wrong reasons (or the wrong thing for the right reasons) is appealing to me.

I'm gonna disagree with you. Personally, I'm sick of the 'shady motives' hero.

Sometimes I wonder if Selfish Goku (seen here, when he gives Cell the senzu, and a few other places) weren't Toriyama deliberately trying to get us to dislike him so we'd like Gohan, who literally IS a superhero, more.

To hell with Gohan!

[caejones]

Awe, now, Gohan may be a crybaby, but is that really reason to send him to Hell?
*imagines Gohan being bullied by dead villains and later being wished back with character ... stuff*
... You won this round...!

I think the thing about Goku's speech to Freeza after going SSJ that bugs me is that ... he ... knew he was the SSJ... but... how? Meh.

[Kirbopher]

I should mention to you guys something, because I think a few of you are missing the point a little bit.

I'm not saying that the original work and intent is BAD, not at all. I understand and agree completely with the fact that the dub and original story are two seperate entities. I'm also not saying that what I liked was BETTER, I just think it was ALSO a good way to handle how that situation in the story went, it's just something different.

That, and while I understand those of you who prefer how the speech in the original went, I think some of you guys have the mentality of "IT'S NOT THE ORIGINAL, THEREFORE = PHAIL" and yes, it's NOT the original, but that doesn't mean it's not something that exists and that people have a viewpoint on. Something that isn't necassarily exactly like the original isn't automatically "stupid" either.