Filler Canon?

[ultimate-saiyan]

I read on the site that filler was made by AT, but on another forum, they just flame me.

So I say filler is canon and is usable evidence, they only think the anime has instead of the manga is the bad guys dont allow there bodies to be taken and keep them in hell, also cant die so they can have infenite torture maybe?

So basicly isant filler usable evidence, if AT and Toei made it, and they own DBZ, that makes it official.

[Kaboom]

Uuuuh... I don't really understand the question, if you're asking one.

Filler can be "canon," if one is worried about such things, save for those that contradict the original manga.

[Humpski]

Oh, yeah I was reading your topic on gamefaqs.

This is what he was referring to:
http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmes ... c=37212188

He's wondering about one of the articles here on Daizex.

[Duo]

Please refer to Akira Toriyama by his full name or something more respectful than "AT". You don't know him on a personal basis, and it comes off as impolite.

Anyway, Toriyama-sensei did create some character designs for Fillers, and apparently he came up with a few basic idea's for some filler, but generally nearly all of his time regarding the series was put towards finishing the Manga every week. He did not write out all the filler, he did not oversee the production, and I highly doubt he told them exactly where to go with it all.

On top of that, several filler are contradictory of events in the Manga and, thus, in the Anime as well.

Examples! (There's a site, too?)

I highly doubt that Toriyama-sensei came up with these idea's and wrote them out to contradict the story he himself was writing. There's also the fact that a lot of filler is simply added scenes of "angry staring" and "random punching and kicking" along with 2 minute scenes of smoke clearing after a big blast, not too mention lots of flashbacks. Some of this can also greatly stretch the stamina of characters to limits they did not have in the Manga. Vegeta get's beat around by Chibi Boo a lot longer in the Anime, to a point where he would have died a lot sooner in the Manga.

This entire subject isn't definite. There is no one who can completely say what is completely "canon" and "non-canon". It's all within fandom. However, the Manga is the original story as we know to be intended from Toriyama-sensei, and the Anime doesn't have nearly as much of his involvement.

Heck, we could get into colors. Gohan's belt is red during the Cell Game in the Manga, but light blue in the Anime.

There's also other sources like the Daizenshuu, Video Games, etc...DesireCampbell has a pretty decent order of the levels of "Canon" as most people accept them.

For me, I generally consider the two universes separate. I think the Manga and Anime function on their own idea's of Canon. Super Saiyan 2 always details a lot of lightning around the warrior in the Manga, but in the Anime there is a lot less and sometimes it isn't present. That means that identifying Super Saiyan 2 in the Anime is different from identifying it in the Manga. I think the Manga can help figure out when it is and isn't being used in the Anime, but how about for, say, Movie 12? There's no original Manga for the movies, because they are all separate "what-if" like stories based off the Anime and Manga.

Whoa, I'm in a writing mood. What the crap.

[Supa Saiya-Jin Tullece]

Filler's Anime Cannon, but not Manga Cannon. You'd have to ask them which one they really care about...

[Phenomenol]

Well to determine what is Canon or not is completely up to the Author.

Anyone who says otherwise is just an opinion.

For example, Toriyama did not consider the Dragonball Movies canon because he said that he "Became part of the Audience."

[Rocketman]

Filler's Anime Cannon, but not Manga Cannon. You'd have to ask them which one they really care about...

Canon:


Cannon:

[Supa Saiya-Jin Tullece]

Sorry, just got out of a war topic. I believe there were even flame throwers involved.

But yeah, the final truth comes down to the manga.

[Phenomenol]

But yeah, the final truth comes down to the manga.

True that the truth is the manga.

For the what is canon argument, I believe that is for the Author to decide don't you think?

[desirecampbell]

Filler's Anime Cannon, but not Manga Cannon. You'd have to ask them which one they really care about...

-snip-
-snip-

I always liked Duo's (was it Duo? I can't even find it anymore) image. Which I blatantly copied

There's also other sources like the Daizenshuu, Video Games, etc...DesireCampbell has a pretty decent order of the levels of "Canon" as most people accept them.

Which I'll post again, in case anyone's wondering about it. I don't like the term 'canon' but it's easier to say than 'this should be believed instead of this, but it's not as reliable a source as that'.

The best way to think about 'canon' in DragonBall is to use a tiered structure (like Star Wars canon).

There are a series of 'levels'. Each level supersedes any information from a lower level that contradicts it. For instance, in the manga (level 1) Super Saiyan hair is a deep gold colour, but in the anime (level 4) it is nearly white - the manga's version is taken as "more canonical".

1. Kanzenban manga - re-edited, and fixed - better than original - by Toriyama himself. For example, Enma's sign says "welcome", not "wellcome".

2. Tankoubon manga - original work, but contains errors and omissions corrected in the Kanzenban.

3. Author notes - anything written by Toriyama about the series that is not included directly in the manga. For example, his notes about Saiyan hair colour.

4. Original Japanese Anime, based on manga - DragonBall, DragonBall Z, Trunks special - disregarding filler. This includes instances that are derived directly from the manga, but are changed somehow (like the SSj hair colour, Goku's gi colour, when Pilaf shows up, and the friggin' week that was the Freeza fight) - but it doesn't include instances of filler that are entirely new (see below).

5. Original Japanese Anime not based on manga, produced by Toei for the series - DB/DBZ filler, DragonBall GT, Bardock special, GT Special. This includes any animation made for the series, but not based on any direct manga counterpart. Like the Garlic Jr saga, the driving episode, Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Piccolo, and Krillin helping out at the Cell games. These events are meant to have happened in the series, but sometimes contradict higher levels of canon.

6. Original Japanese DB/DBZ movies - produced by Toei, but not meant to 'fit' into the series' storyline. These can show the mechanics of the dragonworld in more detail, but actual events should necessarily be taken as having happened.

7. Official guidebooks, databooks, artbooks, and other official merchandise - these products are based off of the manga, the anime (including filler), and the movies so they cannot be taken as as high a level of canon as what they are derived from.

8. Original Video Animation for video games, game shows, fire safety videos, commercials, etc. - produced by Toei, but absolutely not supposed to represent the events of the story in any way.

9. Games (video, card, board, etc) - nothing taken from any game-based mechanics or story should be taken as literal to the story proper.


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You'll notice that I specifically mentioned the original Japanese animation there, and no other country's dubs. Replications of the original animation and script should never be taken as canon. The only time a dub is ever taken as any kind of authority is when it is equivalent to the original animation.

[Rocketman]

I always liked Duo's (was it Duo? I can't even find it anymore) image.

Yes, but that image does not feature the Atomic Cannon, now does it?

[Duo]

Yes, Desire, it was I who posted that before. Though, I actually ripped it off when it was posted by someone else. Then...you ripped it off from me and a made it better. And now, having realized I no longer have the image, I am going to save yours and use it in the future, thus counter-ripping you off.

[Casual Matt]

I think I was the one who made something in paint like that.

Anyway, I say filler is fine and dandy for evidence as long as it doesn't conflict with the manga.

But to be on the safe side, I say there's Manga Canon and then there's Anime Canon, and it's hard to mix sometimes. Cargot's death and Trunks going Super Saiyan come to mind.

[Tyro]

Here's your old picture, Duo.



But I too find the awesome version Desire made to be quite impressive.

[desirecampbell]

Awww, shucks. T'wern't nothin'. Just some transparent PNGs is all.

[Smooth Criminal]

Please refer to Akira Toriyama by his full name or something more respectful than "AT". You don't know him on a personal basis, and it comes off as impolite.

[Casual Matt]

Here's your old picture, Duo.



But I too find the awesome version Desire made to be quite impressive.

Yeah, I slapped that one together. But kudos to desirecampbell for the better version.