What happened to the DBZ Wiki article?

[Olivier Hague]

Like "We have to call her Android 18- so the uneducated reader won't be confused!"
Response- if we call her an android, and then say "but not really" in the opening paragraph, the uninformed reader will likely be MORE confused.

Then again, they're not really "jinzô ningen" either. If "jinzô ningen" is good enough in Japanese, "android" should be good enough in English...

[Onikage725]

Like "We have to call her Android 18- so the uneducated reader won't be confused!"
Response- if we call her an android, and then say "but not really" in the opening paragraph, the uninformed reader will likely be MORE confused.

Then again, they're not really "jinzô ningen" either. If "jinzô ningen" is good enough in Japanese, "android" should be good enough in English...

We wanted to use Artificial Human, like out of the official subs. Either that, Cyborg (as in what they are, and Android for the others), or, my suggestion, take the arguing out and just title them like "#18 ( Dragon Ball)". Technically, for names, they call themselves in the dub Seventeen and Eighteen, and in other sources #17/#18- they dont use the Jinzo-ningen/Android/whatever descriptor at all times. I kinda felt doing so would be like having an article called "Super Saiyan Goku."

And in direct response to your statement- they aren't androids. They don't even count as biodroids. Androids are created, even organically based ones. Since we know these two were humans who were heavily modified, that makes them cyborgs. And, last time I checked, jinzo-ningen was a blanket term that can cover cybernetics as well.

And I don't really get how they "aren't really jinzo ningen." I wasn't aware that Fukanaga outweighed Toriyama on matters relating to Dragon Ball canon.

[Olivier Hague]

We wanted to use Artificial Human, like out of the official subs.

They used that in the subs? Wow, "androids" would have been a lot more convenient. ^^;;

they aren't androids.

Yeah, I know they aren't, technically (well, except for some of them), but that's what they're called regardless: "jinzô ningen" = (lit.) "artificial humans" = "androids". Cyborgs aren't "artificial humans".

last time I checked, jinzo-ningen was a blanket term that can cover cybernetics as well.

Well, I wouldn't say that...

'Just checked out of curiosity, and it turns out Wikipedia wouldn't either: the "Japanese" link of the English "android" page leads to the Japanese "jinzô ningen" page, and vice versa.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android

I wasn't aware that Fukanaga outweighed Toriyama on matters relating to Dragon Ball canon.

Fukanaga? Whuh? ^^;

[Onikage725]

'Just checked out of curiosity, and it turns out Wikipedia wouldn't either: the "Japanese" link of the English "android" page leads to the Japanese "jinzô ningen" page, and vice versa.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android

Well, I can't really make any comments on Japanese wiki's redirects (how do you even check cross-language redirects? that's interesting).

However I can say this much- Jinzo ningen = artificial human (or human being, or person, or man, depending on who's translating). That is a fairly general term. Artificial means "not natural" or "man-made." An android is, specifically, a "robot designed to resemble a human." A cybernetic organism is "an organism that is a self-regulating integration of artificial and natural systems." Both are "unnatural" or "man-made" - "artificial."

And on 17/18- "They're based on human bodies... enhanced almost entirely with bio-organic components... I guess that's why this Cell figures it can fuse with them... I'll have to check, but these few cybernetic parts might be the key to their weakness..."

Humans enhanced with cybernetic parts = cyborgs, which fell under the broad term artificial human, but does not meet the criteria for the more tightly described android.

At least that's always been my take on it.

Here's an excerpt from lovelycyborg.com-

Let's begin with the Japanese term "jinzouningen," the word used to refer to all of Dr. Gero's creations in the anime and manga. Literally translated, it means "artificial human". However, the way this term is used in Japanese (chiefly sci-fi) is very broad, and can describe the completely mechanical creations of #16 and #19 to the cybernetically enhanced humans of #17 and #18. There is no exact English equivalent for "jinzouningen," nor is there such a word in the English language that is so broad. For English speakers, we have the option of using "android," "cyborg," or "robot" and not much else.

To my knowledge, the Japanese don't have a word for cyborg and android individually, aside from borrowing those two words themselves. Jinzo ningen is pretty much where its at for people-ish things of a mechanical nature.

Let me put it this way.

Let's say there's a pet in a show who is an american bulldog. Let's say the show simply refers to the pet, outside of its name, as "inu" (or "dog"). Now let's say this show is dubbed into english and they refer to this pet as a pit bull. Both are dogs (or inu), and heck they're even related... but that doesn't change the fact that it is a misleading translation.

[Olivier Hague]

Well, I can't really make any comments on Japanese wiki's redirects (how do you even check cross-language redirects? that's interesting).

Er... Well, I just click on those links on the left? ^_^;

However I can say this much- Jinzo ningen = artificial human (or human being, or person, or man, depending on who's translating). That is a fairly general term. Artificial means "not natural" or "man-made." An android is, specifically, a "robot designed to resemble a human." A cybernetic organism is "an organism that is a self-regulating integration of artificial and natural systems." Both are "unnatural" or "man-made" - "artificial."

"Artifical and natural systems". That means the cyborg isn't built (man-made) from scratch, and that's what makes the whole difference.
Well, that's my take, anyway, and the Japanese Wikipedia page makes the exact same argument when explaining the difference between androids/jinzô ningen and cyborgs.

Humans enhanced with cybernetic parts = cyborgs, which fell under the broad term artificial human

Not according to me, nor according to Wikipedia Japan. For them, "jinzô ningen" = "android" != "cyborg", for the reasons explained above.
#17 and #18 were not "man-made". They weren't made by Dr. Gero, they were "simply" changed / enhanced by him.
So yeah, calling them "android" is indeed a misnomer (they're cyborgs, technically), but so is calling them "jinzô ningen", which is what Toriyama (or should I say Dr. Gero?) did anyway.

Here's an excerpt from lovelycyborg.com-

Let's begin with the Japanese term "jinzouningen," the word used to refer to all of Dr. Gero's creations in the anime and manga. Literally translated, it means "artificial human". However, the way this term is used in Japanese (chiefly sci-fi) is very broad, and can describe the completely mechanical creations of #16 and #19 to the cybernetically enhanced humans of #17 and #18.

Well, I disagree with that statement. I wouldn't say it's that broad a term.
I would like to know how the author of that article came to that conclusion.

To my knowledge, the Japanese don't have a word for cyborg and android individually, aside from borrowing those two words themselves.

Like said above, the Japanese Wikipedia page pretty much states that "jinzô ningen" = "android", actually ( "人造人間（じんぞうにんげん）とは、人によって製造された、人間を模した機械のことをいう。人型のロボット、アンドロイドの総称である。" ). And that was already my impression before I checked it a few hours ago.

[Onikage725]

"Artifical and natural systems". That means the cyborg isn't built (man-made) from scratch, and that's what makes the whole difference.
Well, that's my take, anyway, and the Japanese Wikipedia page makes the exact same argument when explaining the difference between androids/jinzô ningen and cyborgs.

I would contest that cybernetics are man-made, and cybernetic conversions are man-made processes- so the resulting cyborg would thus be "man-made." He/she isn't "natural" anymore, or as he/she was born.

And on Japanese wiki... I can't check anything right now. This work computer doesnt have a language pack, so all I get are question marks. And translation software leaves much to be desired. Though I don't see anything along the lines of "as opposed to a cyborg which is..." so I guess it is way off.

But I might as well be honest when I say that I barely trust english wiki (and I work on that project). I'm not likely to change my belief on this based on what a foreign wiki says on translation matters of two english words. As far as I know, and can tell from double checking, the japanese dont even have a word for cyborg aside from borrowing "saibogu." My understanding has always been that jinzo ningen covered all synthetic beings. Android is a common useage, but not the limit of its scope. That's why I mentioned breeds. Keeping japanese out of it, if someone says "canine" they tend to be talking about a dog. However the term means any member of the family, and could mean wolf (for example).

[Olivier Hague]

I would contest that cybernetics are man-made, and cybernetic conversions are man-made processes- so the resulting cyborg would thus be "man-made." He/she isn't "natural" anymore, or as he/she was born.

Yes, he/she was born. That's my point. The process of enhancing that individual is artificial, indeed. But the individual isn't.
(do you have a watch? you're not natural anymore! ^^ )

I don't see anything along the lines of "as opposed to a cyborg which is..."

Here:
また、身体の一部を機械化した人間はサイボーグ(cyborg)と呼ばれ、一から作られたアンドロイドとは区別される。

I'm not likely to change my belief on this based on what a foreign wiki says on translation matters of two english words.

Er... As far as I can tell, your entire argument seems to be based on the notion that "jinzô ningen" is a broad term that encompasses both "android" and "cyborg", and the only source you've provided so far is an English language fansite.
While I agree that Wikipedia can be unreliable, I have to wonder why you're questioning a Japanese point of view regarding the meaning of a Japanese word while putting so much faith in the take of that one English language fansite. ^^;

As far as I know, and can tell from double checking, the japanese dont even have a word for cyborg aside from borrowing "saibogu."

"Kaizô ningen". But "cyborg" is a lot more common, as far as I know, indeed.

My understanding has always been that jinzo ningen covered all synthetic beings.

They're "man-made humans". Cyborgs aren't "man-made humans".

[Herms]

Looking at the entry for 'jinzou ningen' on the Japanese Wikipedia, I found this in the list of prominent 'jinzou ningen':

8号(C)、16号(A)、17号(C)、18号(C)、19号(A)、20号(C)、セル(A) (DRAGON BALL)「人造人間 (ドラゴンボール)参照」アンドロイドとサイボーグを分類(作中で人造人間の名を冠されているが、サイボーグは人造人間ではない)

(last part bolded for emphasis)

The first half, as you can probably tell, is just a list of the different jinzou ningen from Dragon Ball. The "(C)" or "(A)" indicates if they are a cyborg or an android. The article uses the English words for both cyborg and android, distinguishing them both from 'jinzou ningen'.

The bolded portion roughly translates out to:
"...classified as androids [note: again, they used the English word for android here] or cyborgs (in the series they are given the name jinzou ningen, but a cyborg is not a jinzou ningen)"

So it does seem that cyborgs are in fact distinct from jinzou ningen.

[Thanos6]

Why is Cell listed as a full android?

[Olivier Hague]

Well, he's not a cyborg. ^^;
But yeah, calling him an android is a bit of a misnomer.

[Onikage725]

Well, he's not a cyborg. ^^;
But yeah, calling him an android is a bit of a misnomer.

I figured him as a clone-ish thing.

But technically, I suppose he could count as a biodroid, so it isn't that wrong.

Then again, being completely biological, after absorbing 17 and 18 he could possibly count as a cyborg...

So I dunno.

[laserkid]

Alright, some retards trying to remove comedy from the series description in the talk page. I'll fully admit I've got NO fudging clue how to use wikipedia editing, but with all these nutjobs coming out, I'm onboard for helping now, as best as I can anyway.

[Xyex]

So it does seem that cyborgs are in fact distinct from jinzou ningen.

Yeah, makes sense to me. Calling something an 'artifical human' would imply that it's not truely human and never was. But cyborgs are human, just with machine parts included. So they'd fall under something else. 'enhanced human' would fit better, I'd think, than 'artificial'.

[Onikage725]

So it does seem that cyborgs are in fact distinct from jinzou ningen.

Yeah, makes sense to me. Calling something an 'artifical human' would imply that it's not truely human and never was. But cyborgs are human, just with machine parts included. So they'd fall under something else. 'enhanced human' would fit better, I'd think, than 'artificial'.

My opinion on this was formed a long time ago and not just by Dragon Ball. However, my memory is fuzzy and any search I do to help just nets me results on Kiader, Dragon Ball, and a Yu-Gi-Oh! card.

Still I'll say this much on useage of the term artifice-
Let's stop thinking for a second about 17 and 18. It's easy to look at them, more on the Six Million Dollar Man/Bionic Woman side of things, and think "nah, doesn't count." Let's look at characters like 20, or even Dr. Wheelo (though the term isn't used on him, if it applies to Gero it does to him as well). What Palladium RPGs would call a Full-Conversion Cyborg I believe. Tell me there isn't anything "unnatural" or "man made" (hence- artificial) about #20. His entire body is robotic, and his only remaining human feature is his brain. Dr. Wheelo doesn't even model after his old self and instead went for the giant lobster look. In addition, his brown has grown monstrously immense. They may have once been born human, and thus qualify as cyborgs, but their current state of existence is very artificial.

But since I can't produce a cited counterpoint to my argument, I'm willing to concede the issue and move on.

[Olivier Hague]

Let's stop thinking for a second about 17 and 18. It's easy to look at them, more on the Six Million Dollar Man/Bionic Woman side of things, and think "nah, doesn't count." Let's look at characters like 20, or even Dr. Wheelo (though the term isn't used on him, if it applies to Gero it does to him as well). What Palladium RPGs would call a Full-Conversion Cyborg I believe. Tell me there isn't anything "unnatural" or "man made" (hence- artificial) about #20. His entire body is robotic, and his only remaining human feature is his brain.

Still a cyborg (like Gally from Gunnm, for example), not a "jinzô ningen".

[Xyex]

Let's look at characters like 20, or even Dr. Wheelo (though the term isn't used on him, if it applies to Gero it does to him as well). What Palladium RPGs would call a Full-Conversion Cyborg I believe. Tell me there isn't anything "unnatural" or "man made" (hence- artificial) about #20.

Still cyborgs. All that matters is that the starting base wasn't artifically created. Now, if the organic brains of Wheelo and Gero had been grown in a lab then they could be called artificial. Cell, for instance. Though I'd not classify him as 'human'.

For a good example outside of Dragonball there are the Realians of the Xenosaga series. They're basicly fully organic robots. That would count as an Artifical Human. But anything that starts off as human, no matter the degree of cyberization done to them, is cyborg. I'd even go so far as to say that a fully robotic body with a direct copy of a human mind stored inside a completely robotic body (no organics in the system anywhere at all) would still be a cyborg, because the original was full human.

[Onikage725]

Let's look at characters like 20, or even Dr. Wheelo (though the term isn't used on him, if it applies to Gero it does to him as well). What Palladium RPGs would call a Full-Conversion Cyborg I believe. Tell me there isn't anything "unnatural" or "man made" (hence- artificial) about #20.

Still cyborgs. All that matters is that the starting base wasn't artifically created. Now, if the organic brains of Wheelo and Gero had been grown in a lab then they could be called artificial. Cell, for instance. Though I'd not classify him as 'human'.

For a good example outside of Dragonball there are the Realians of the Xenosaga series. They're basicly fully organic robots. That would count as an Artifical Human. But anything that starts off as human, no matter the degree of cyberization done to them, is cyborg. I'd even go so far as to say that a fully robotic body with a direct copy of a human mind stored inside a completely robotic body (no organics in the system anywhere at all) would still be a cyborg, because the original was full human.

I didn't say they weren't cyborgs. In fact, the line you quoted from me directly called them as much. The discussion isn't about whether or not these characters are cyborgs. Its about whether or not a cyborg is "artificial." Cybernetic organisms are organisms that have their natural systems replaced, in part or in full, with unnatural electronic systems (which are by their definition man-made) in order to imitate or simulate upon those natural systems. And since artificial is defined as lacking naturalness, man-made, or simulated... there is really no way anything either of you says is going to convince me that a character like Dr. Gero is natural and lacking any amount of artifice, falling completely outside the ability to use that word to describe him. Especially considering that noone would bat an eyelash using the term for #19, who is, outside of shape and 1/2 of the central nervous system, 100% identical in structure, materials, and function.

I am however willing to agree to disagree and move back to the main topic of this thread. If the problem is simply my example of headaches had dealing with some editors, I could instead point to the one that sparked this topic. Or the war a couple of people started over the fact that we didn't call ultimate Buu "the nicest form of Buu" and our refusal to speculate on his power relative to chibi Buu. Or the whole "using Goku's surname will confuse the reader" debate. Or "if we don't spell Freeza with an "i" and Coola with an "er" noone will be able to find the articles!" Or "Kuririns name has nothing to do with chestnuts."

[TripleRach]

I haven't seen it mentioned yet, but I definitely think this is worth noting...

In the manga (and probably the anime, too, but I can't check that), when Trunks first starts telling Gokuu about 人造人間 jinzouningen, he actually uses サイボーグ saiboogu (cyborg) as a clarifier. And keep in mind that this was written when #19 and #20 were the only two Toriyama had in mind, as they're who Trunks specifically warned about.

[desirecampbell]

Obviously, 'Artificial Human' is an imperfect term. But it (apparently) is what's used in the only available official English translation - and thus is what should be used for Wikipedia.

And with that - expect me over there soon.

[Onikage725]

Obviously, 'Artificial Human' is an imperfect term. But it (apparently) is what's used in the only available official English translation - and thus is what should be used for Wikipedia.

And with that - expect me over there soon.

Actually my main suggestion apparently took root.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._18

Works for me.