Children of SSj's - natural or not?

[Terra-jin]

This topic is about the theory that children of Super Saiyans have the same ability naturally. This is only true if the child was conceived after (one of) its parents achieved Super Saiyan. The SSj 'gene', if you will, is passed down to the child and as a result, it can turn SSj without an emotional shock or a minimum energy level.

The most obvious examples are Goten and Trunks. They both have no trouble whatsoever with Super Saiyan and that fact is clearly (and humorously) stated in DB. Goten doesn't even remember his first transformation.
Mirai Trunks is different - in the anime, at least, he has some trouble before becoming a Super Saiyan. This could be attributed to that Mirai Vegeta achieved SSj some time after Trunks was conceived. It fits entirely within the range of possibilities of that particular strand of uncharted history. Is it even stated that Vegeta reached SSj at all in the future?
Then we have Pan. My thoughts on her case are that she inherited the 'mystic' powerup of her father and hence has no access to SSj at all. I know, according to Mr. Toriyama she simply didn't have the incentive - but c'mon, neither did Trunks or Goten, right?

Lastly, we have Bura. She's not a fighter at all... but she was conceived after Vegeta reached SSj 2. If the SSj 2 can also be inherited, Bura should be a natural SSj 2. Too bad she never listened to her Saiyan side...

Whadd'ya think?

[Saiyan]

I've always felt that Goten and Trunks were able to become Super Saiyans because both of their fathers became Super Saiyans before they were conceived.

I'm going by the manga on this one, where Future Trunks already has access to SSj before Gohan dies.

As for Pan and Bra..technically they should. Pan might not because of the "Ultimate" power-up Gohan achieved, as you said. Bra...she probably could, but decided not to since it messed with her hairstyle or something. Plus Bra's not a fighter so there's no point for her to turn Super Saiyan.

[desirecampbell]

I've always felt that Goten and Trunks were able to become Super Saiyans because both of their fathers became Super Saiyans before they were conceived.
I'm going by the manga on this one, where Future Trunks already has access to SSj before Gohan dies.

It's unclear whether or not Vegeta became a Super Saiyan before conceiving Trunks, as there are only a few months between his training's start and the latest point when Trunks could have been conceived. And Vegeta only starts training again because of the Android threat - so in Trunks' future he wouldn't have reached SSj before conception.

[Rocketman]

Another point on Future Trunks - he's 17. Even if Vegeta never went SSJ, Gohan's knowledge/achievement of it means he could push Trunks to go SSJ before the part of the story we see, but later than a "inherited Super" would be.

Plus, one-armed base Gohan has blocking SSJ Trunks' attacks without breaking a sweat. Trunks was a pathetically weak Super Saiyan, probably just turned.

[Sshadow5001]

Another point on Future Trunks - he's 17. Even if Vegeta never went SSJ, Gohan's knowledge/achievement of it means he could push Trunks to go SSJ before the part of the story we see, but later than a "inherited Super" would be.

Plus, one-armed base Gohan has blocking SSJ Trunks' attacks without breaking a sweat. Trunks was a pathetically weak Super Saiyan, probably just turned.

Was this in the Manga? I didn't realise they did a history of Trunks Manga?

EDIT

Is it in the english version of the manga?

[Rocketman]

Is it in the english version of the manga?

Yep. DBZ vol. 17, if I remember right.

[Sshadow5001]

Is it in the english version of the manga?

Yep. DBZ vol. 17, if I remember right.

Awsome I'm Gonna have to find that volume when i go Manga/Anime shopping next Wednesday.

[Conan the SSJ]

Is it even stated that Vegeta reached SSj at all in the future?

I believe it is. When USSJ Vegeta confronts Semi-Imperfect Cell, Cell tells Vegeta that he reached Super Saiyan in the future, and yet he was still thrashed by Android 17 (I think Trunks also brings it up). In the prologue to the History of Trunks special, we see Vegeta as a SSJ when 17 kills him with a knee attack, as well as in the differently animated flashback during the USSJ Trunks/Perfect Cell battle.

[I like DB(Z) (...)]

It's a good theory, however, I regard the "Mystic" power-up as a barrier-destroyer, rather then a transformation. So Pan can go SSJ (I just put this on the fact that she's a female which is why she can't go SSJ). Which, in turn, can lead to Goku Jr to go SSJ.

[Terra-jin]

Yeah... I guess if Pan were also mystic, she would've been a lot more powerful (full energies of up to SSj 3 in its mastered form). I agree that it makes no sense that female Saiyans shouldn't be able to become Super Saiyans (just because the only two in the series aren't seen as SSj).

@desirecampbell: A few months? Trunks was born 1 year before the arrival of the cyborgs (768) and Vegeta started training 3 years before. So there's more than a year between Vegeta's training and Trunks' conception. Vegeta has this time to attain SSj, and I believe that he did.
This means that Vegeta was a Super Saiyan two years before he showed it off to the rest of the Z-fighters and Kakarot, probably to make sure that he was a stronger SSj than Goku. Vegeta may be a show-off, but he wouldn't risk being humiliated as a Super Saiyan.

[Godo]

What I think of Mystic : It's just like a permanent SSJ.

When you train, your amount of chi you can hold in your body increases.
When you go SSJ, SSJ2, SSJ3, you can use more of that chi, but it's ineffective as you loose valuable amounts of chi to be able to maintain the state.
When you go Mystic, your chi isn't drained, and you use all your chi efficiently and can use more of it at once.

Pan didn't have any of the mystic attributes. None at all. Just look at the dramatic change of Gohan's appearance.
Pan is also too weak, even though all the training she has had. If the really were mystic she would have been much stronger.

For all you purists, change "mystic" into "super/chou".

[Xyex]

I've always believed in the inherited SSJ theory. It's the only thing that makes any sort of sense for Goten and Trunks.

I'm going by the manga on this one, where Future Trunks already has access to SSj before Gohan dies.

Well, even if you go by the anime there's nothing against it. It just means that Future Trunks came along before Vegeta hit Super Saiya-jin. Without knowledge of the Androids he probably didn't train quite as much/hard and so didn't reach it as soon.

It's unclear whether or not Vegeta became a Super Saiyan before conceiving Trunks, as there are only a few months between his training's start and the latest point when Trunks could have been conceived.

764 A.D. Some time in August. Trunks arrives. He kills Cyborg Frieza and King Cold.
766 A.D. Trunks is born.

That's, at least, 7 months, up to possibly 19, during which Trunks could have been concieved. I'd say Vegeta was already close to obtaining Super Saiya-jin on Namek so I don't think it would have taken him much longer. At most a year. So there's plenty of time for both to occur.

And Vegeta only starts training again because of the Android threat - so in Trunks' future he wouldn't have reached SSj before conception.

It's Vegeta. He was training anyway and would have trained anyway.

Plus, one-armed base Gohan has blocking SSJ Trunks' attacks without breaking a sweat.

Yeeeeeah... I've never liked that scene. I mean, sure, there's three years between then and when he goes back in time and fights Freeza, and he's likely not much stronger than Goku had been on Namek then. He'd have obviously been weaker three years earlier. But still.

It's a good theory, however, I regard the "Mystic" power-up as a barrier-destroyer, rather then a transformation. So Pan can go SSJ (I just put this on the fact that she's a female which is why she can't go SSJ). Which, in turn, can lead to Goku Jr to go SSJ.

Mystic replaced Super Saiya-jin, though. It sort of 'disabled' the transformation. So even if Gohan didn't pass on the Mystic power he wouldn't have passed on Super Saiya-jin either because he no longer had it to pass on. Goku Jr.'s transforming is just Toei doing more stupid crap that makes no sense.

[Akira]

I've never liked the theory, because nothing to the effect is EVER said in the series. It is a poor assumption dreamed up to ease the explanation of something people seem to have difficulty understanding.

What IS said in the series offers another, more plausible, and highly possible explanation.

It is said that a Saiyan/Human hybrid is stronger than either race alone, and gains power faster. It is said that saiyans gain power faster by fighting and surviving against stronger opponents than themselves.

Goku fought a bunch of humans growing up, he battled the strongest of them, Tai Pai Pai and others, who boosted his strength, and ultimately it was fighting Piccolo that started to really boost his battle strength.

Vegeta fought various aliens, and more or less dominated most of them. So his power grew faster than Goku's early on, but still was slow progression.

Who did Goten and Trunks fight? Let's see here... Hrmmm.. Super Saiyans. Gohan and Vegeta specifically. And, what else...oh yeah, each other. No threat of death, just fun fighting. They gained power faster than anyone expected and were able to become Super Saiyans sooner. Through tantrums, which are pretty much extreme rage in children, they unlocked the form a lot faster than anyone thought possible.

That is so much more likely, follows things said in the series, and more or less explains it. But, what do I know? Just keep thinking they were "Passed" the ability at conception, that makes so much more sense.

[Xyex]

Just keep thinking they were "Passed" the ability at conception, that makes so much more sense.

Let's see, genetic trait passed along or a 2 year old experiencing intense rage enough to transform into a Super Saiya-jin, in a large scale event that would be easily noticed by anyone within a few hundred miles, but yet goes completely undectected. Yep, obviously the most sensible is the latter of the two.

Oh, and:

Who did Goten and Trunks fight? Let's see here... Hrmmm.. Super Saiyans. Gohan and Vegeta specifically. And, what else...oh yeah, each other.

Nope. They played with each other a lot (and while in Super Saiya-jin, at that) but they never spared with Gohan/Vegeta prior to the Saiyaman Saga. This is out right stated.

Also, if a child's tantrum was enough to cuase the Super Saiya-jin transformation Vegeta would have transformed on Earth against Goku after the Kamehameha/Galic Gun exchange. >.>

[Super Sonic]

Also, if a child's tantrum was enough to cuase the Super Saiya-jin transformation Vegeta would have transformed on Earth against Goku after the Kamehameha/Galic Gun exchange. >.>

That's what it was looking what would happen at the 28th Budokai before Pan just started crying.

Now that I think of it, does make me wonder what a Super Saiyan Pan would look like.

[Rocketman]

Which is another question... how did Vegeta or Gohan miss sensing a new Super Saiyan energy flaring up?

[caejones]

Gohan was absorbed in his studies. Vegeta was watching his soaps.

The idea of an SSJ Gene pretty much requires that you see SSJ as a mutation... and the changes that occur in SSJ and SSJ2 don't lead me to conclude as such (though ssj3 is beyond my abilities to explain... -.-).

I do recall someone suggesting in an older thread that perhaps the tail inhibits the SSJ transformation? And there was other stuff that gave me an idea of how Goten and Trunks managed to transform so well... but I... don't remember it. T.T.

[Xyex]

Which is another question... how did Vegeta or Gohan miss sensing a new Super Saiyan energy flaring up?

Lower powers that they didn't notice because they weren't high enough. They never noticed Dabura, either, and he was stronger than them.

[Suupaa Gohan 2]

The most obvious examples are Goten and Trunks. They both have no trouble whatsoever with Super Saiyan and that fact is clearly (and humorously) stated in DB. Goten doesn't even remember his first transformation.

I suppose in theory this could make sense for Goten, who was conceived after Gokou became a Super Saiyajin, but wasn't baby present-day Trunks conceived before Vegeta's transformation...?

I always chalked the kids up to Toriyama-Sensei's just...laziness/uncaring-at-that-point-of-the-series...ness...kinda like his excuse for making tails a 'recessive trait' when it was pretty clear he just forgot about them with all the golden-haired superpowers.

I really think he just wanted his two new Saiyajin characters to magically be on the same level as the rest. So he just made them child prodigies without taking into consideration that they really didn't experience the emotional trauma needed as established earlier in the series. Like I said; I think he just didn't care or forgot by that point. Not everything in DB has a rational explanation (most things in fact ) and that's my take on it.

[caejones]

It's kinda frustrating in some sense since they could easily have ben made SSJs later (say, Gohan and Vegeta getting pwn'd by Buu)... and with "recessive tails", I find myself willing to stretch the meaning of that so that it's not referring to genetics... which... doesn't make much sense, but I likes my continuity games.
Speaking of which... *Goes to check IMs*