Tales from the Daizenshuu

Post by **Herms** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 3:22 pm

Kikoha Hater wrote:Herms, did the Daizenshuu refer to the name of Gohan “Mystic” transformation as “Gohan-Type” and refer to the resulting form as “Super Gohan” or “Saikyo no Senshi”. I don’t know I’m still a little confused on why they would give that particular form more than one name instead of settling for one definite name.

Gohan's Personal History entry in Daizenshuu 2 calls the form "Saikyou no Senshi". Daizenshuu 7's pull-out poster with every major character and form from the manga lists the form as "Super Gohan". Daizenshuu 10's guide to Super Saiyans lists the form as "Gohan-Type", and notes that it's also called "Ultimate Gohan". So...yeah, it's pretty confusing.

Kikoha Hater wrote: Did they also go through the trouble of naming Zarbon (Monster Form), Kaioshin (Kabit fusion), Bojack, Janemba and Hildegarn’s forms?

Daizenshuu 5's character model section labels Kaioshin fused with Kibito as "Post-Fusion with the Potaro". Daizenshuu 6's summaries of DBZ movies 12 and 13 lists both Janenba and Hildegarn's second forms as "Post-Tranformation". Movie 9's summary doesn't name Bojack's muscular form, but in the character model section it's called his Powered-Up form. I couldn't find anything for Zarbon.

Post by **Herms** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 4:09 pm

Toriyama Boss wrote: Does the Daizenshuu 7 have a profile on "Super Kanzentai Cell?" If so, do you mind translating that info concerning Super Kanzentai Cell?Thanks.

The Character Dictionary only lists the character in general, and not specific forms. Daizenshuu 2's Personal History section does have profiles for the specific forms of characters, but only for the heroes (or villians who became heroes).

FindKenshi wrote: Are Bojack and his member from the same realm as Dabura? They are supposed to be... demons... right?

He's listed as on alien in Daizenshuu 6, in the Variety of DB secion on pp.180-181 that categorizes all the movie villains. His profile in the DBZ movie 9 summary does call him a devil, but I think it's only intended to be metaphorical. For instance, Garlick Jr. is listed in the same Variety of DB section as a member of the Demon Clan, even though it also mentions that he and his followers are from Planet Makyo. So if Bojack and his henchmen were intended to be at all magical or demonic, they probably would have been listed with the magical beings.

You know, I completely forgot about the Variety of DB section that sorts the movie villians when I was doing my write-up of Daizenshuu 6, so here's a shortened, skeleton version. Basically, I just left out the text that describes each category and character.

Aliens
Saiyan: Tullece, Broli
Namekians: Slugg
Other: Coola, Bojack

Bio Warrior: Bio-Broli

Humans: Taopaipai, Tsuru Sen'nin

Mecha Warrior
Androids: Merged #13
Cyborg: Dr. Uiro, Metal Coola

Magical Beings
Demon Clan: Garlick Jr.
Others: King Gourmes, Lucifer, Janenba, Hildegarn

testing223 · Post by **testing223** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 4:44 am

Do any of the books hint or describe some of Toriyama's original plotlines that never materialize? I.e. original endings at the various sagas, where the Buu series REALLY was going, where he wanted to take Gohan, etc.?

Toriyama Boss · Post by **Toriyama Boss** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 2:49 pm

Herms wrote:The Character Dictionary only lists the character in general, and not specific forms. Daizenshuu 2's Personal History section does have profiles for the specific forms of characters, but only for the heroes (or villians who became heroes).

I see.....So what does it say conerning Cell?
Thank you.

Post by **Herms** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:11 pm

The Special Attack Index is up in the Dragon Ball General Discussion forum now.

Here is the translation of Gohan's Personal history from Daizenshuu 2, pp.114-117. Captions are indented, with a brief description of the picture in <> marks.

p.114
Son Gohan.

Bottomless dormant power that knows no bottom, even though he was trained from infancy

Gohan is an elite who easily handled the training he was put through since the age of four in order to fight enormous enemies. As a Saiyan and Earthling half-breed, Gohan posses dormant power that surpasses that of a Saiyan. While by nature he has a calm personality and isn't interested in fighting, when he looses his reason his true power explodes.

Childhood Era (vol.17 to 28)

Through Chi-Chi's education, Gohan was raised to have a quiet personality (even with Goku around). Through Piccolo's special training, we begin to see his Saiyan heritage.

<Gohan looking at full moon and as a giant monkey> Gohan turns into a giant monkey as well. (vol.18 chp.208/vol.20 chp.240)

Young Boy Era (vol.28 to 35)

Hearing Trunks' message about the Androids, he trains with Goku and Piccolo for three years. His tail is still missing from the battle with Vegeta.

p.115
Super Saiyan (vol.33 onward)

Gohans acquires this from training with Goku in the Room of Spirits and Time in order to fight Cell. He trained by trying to live with Super Saiyan as his normal state.

<Gohan and Goku in Room of Spirits and Time> Goku saw Gohan's hidden potential. (vol.32 chp.377)

Super Saiyan 2 (vol.34 onward)

Gohan's form after his anger exploded due to Cell's cruel actions. That Gohan was able to reach this stage earlier than Goku proves how high his dormant power is.

<#16's head being crushed and Gohan's reaction> The impetus was Cell killing #16. (vol.34 chp.407)

p.116
High School Student Era (vol.36~42)

Many years after the battle with Cell, Gohan had become a high school student. Due to either Chi-Chi's influence or him neglecting to train, his strength hadn't changed since when he was a boy.

<Gohan at Orange Star High School with Erasa and Videl> At high school he went through a lot of trouble to conceal his power. (vol.36, chp. 422/chp.424)

<Gohan and Bulma> In order to conceal his identity, he consults Bulma. (vol. 36 chp. 423)

<Gohan as Great SaiyaMan with turban and sunglasses> For use in the tournament, which prohibited helmets. (vol.36 chp. 426)

<Gohan as Great SaiyaMan doing poses> The clothes he wears when defeating evildoers. He calls himself “the Great SaiyaMan”. (vol.36 chp.424)

High School Era Super Saiyan 2 (vol.37)

During the Tenka-ichi Budoukai he transforms at Kibito's request. Because he couldn't gain power from anger and because he hadn't been training, he doesn't have the same fighting ability as when he defeated Cell.

p.117
The Mightiest Warrior (vol.41)

In order to defeat Majin Buu, he had his dormant power drawn out by the Elder Kaioshin. Even withoout becoming a Super Saiyan, he has power surpassing Gotenks.

The Gohan of a Different Future (vol.33)

In the world of the teenage Trunks, where Goku died of a heart virus, the only remaining warriors were were Trunks and Gohan. Gohan even lost one of his arms. He could become Super Saiyan, but lost his life fighting the Androids.

Father Era (vol.42)

Ten years after the battle with Majin Buu, Gohan has followed his childhood dream and become a scholar. Having more enthusiasm for research than training, he is far removed from battle.

Post by **Herms** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:21 pm

testing223 wrote:Do any of the books hint or describe some of Toriyama's original plotlines that never materialize? I.e. original endings at the various sagas, where the Buu series REALLY was going, where he wanted to take Gohan, etc.?

The only thing I can think of like that is in the Shenlong Times insert in Daizenshuu 2 (the one where Toriyama talks with his three editors). According to this, Toriyama originally planned for #19 and #20 to be the only androids to appear. However, his editor didn't like their design ("They're just a fat guy and an old man!"), so Toriyama came up with #17 and #18. However, his editor didn't like them either ("They're just kids!"), so Toriyama came up with Cell. His editor didn't like first-form Cell, so Toriyama designed second-form Cell. His editor really didn't like second form Cell ("He looks so stupid!"), so Toriyama designed Cell in his complete form. Toriyama's editor liked that form, so it became the final enemy.

In this and other interviews, it's suggested that the primarily reason villians transform in the series is because Toriyama's editor simply didn't like their initial character design.

Toriyama Boss wrote: I see.....So what does it say conerning Cell?
Thank you.

It just describes his history, the battles he fights, and the moves he can use. Nothing you can't learn from the series (though still a useful reference).

Post by **VegettoEX** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:33 pm

Herms wrote:The only thing I can think of like that is in the Shenlong Times insert in Daizenshuu 2 (the one where Toriyama talks with his three editors). According to this, Toriyama originally planned for #19 and #20 to be the only androids to appear. However, his editor didn't like their design ("They're just a fat guy and an old man!"), so Toriyama came up with #17 and #18. However, his editor didn't like them either ("They're just kids!"), so Toriyama came up with Cell. His editor didn't like first-form Cell, so Toriyama designed second-form Cell. His editor really didn't like second form Cell ("He looks so stupid!"), so Toriyama designed Cell in his complete form. Toriyama's editor liked that form, so it became the final enemy.

You know, I've been going around saying that for a while knowing it's actual truth, but totally forgetting what the source was (despite knowing that I own whatever source it was).

I don't think my Shenron Times from #2 is anywhere that I can find it; I know where my #7 is, but that's it. #2 is probably filed away in a notebook somewhere from so many moves.

I hate to be like other people in the thread (since I'm actually lucky enough to own the materials from being into it for so long; nothing against everyone else, of course!), but do you think you'd be able to scan it for me?

We've really been wanting to do a tidbit/podcast about that particular subject for a while, and never have because I couldn't trace down where the info originally came from.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:34 pm

Toriyama Boss wrote:I see.....So what does it say conerning Cell?
Thank you.

It says Cell defeated Cell.

Toriyama Boss · Post by **Toriyama Boss** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 4:11 pm

desirecampbell wrote:It says Cell defeated Cell.

Is this a joke.....? Cause I am still waiting for the punch line!

SonEric84 · Post by **SonEric84** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 4:14 pm

Toriyama Boss wrote:
desirecampbell wrote:It says Cell defeated Cell.
Is this a joke.....? Cause I am still waiting for the punch line!

It's a mistake in the subtitles on one of Funimation's discs...I think it's either movie 9 or Cell era episodes somewhere?

Post by **Herms** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 4:24 pm

VegettoEX wrote: I hate to be like other people in the thread (since I'm actually lucky enough to own the materials from being into it for so long; nothing against everyone else, of course!), but do you think you'd be able to scan it for me? We've really been wanting to do a tidbit/podcast about that particular subject for a while, and never have because I couldn't trace down where the info originally came from.

I don't have a scanner myself, but Saiyan scanned in all of the Shenlong Times from Daizenshuu 2 way back on the first page. Here'shis scan of the relevent page. The scans are a little blurry though.

Rereading that interview, I note that the story's a bit more complex than I presented it. It was actually Toriyama's old editor Torishima who called him up to complain about #19 and #20's designs, not his then current editor Kondou. But it was Kondou who 'suggested' that Cell's design be changed. On the whole the interview is a fascinating example of Japanese indirectness.

Here are the rest of the pages:

Saiyan wrote: Daizenshuu #2 Shenlong Times

Post by **VegettoEX** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 5:00 pm

Ah, my bad

. I hadn't been paying full attention for a number of pages, obviously. Thanks!

Tanooki Kuribo · Post by **Tanooki Kuribo** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 5:42 pm

According to this, Toriyama originally planned for #19 and #20 to be the only androids to appear. However, his editor didn't like their design... Toriyama came up with #17 and #18. However, his editor didn't like them either... so Toriyama came up with Cell. His editor didn't like first-form Cell, ... His editor really didn't like second form Cell... so Toriyama designed Cell in his complete form. Toriyama's editor liked that form, so it became the final enemy.

Not for nothing but, his editor kinda sounds like a jerk.

I always thoght that story was fake cause I figure, his editor would have to see the final desgin before it went "official". But, I guess not. Interesting. So does that mean if his editor saw the designs and rejected them before Toriyama had a chance to put them in the show, we probley would just have the (perfect) Cell saga and no Android saga?

NeptuneKai · Post by **NeptuneKai** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 5:52 pm

Tanooki Kuribo wrote:
According to this, Toriyama originally planned for #19 and #20 to be the only androids to appear. However, his editor didn't like their design... Toriyama came up with #17 and #18. However, his editor didn't like them either... so Toriyama came up with Cell. His editor didn't like first-form Cell, ... His editor really didn't like second form Cell... so Toriyama designed Cell in his complete form. Toriyama's editor liked that form, so it became the final enemy.
Not for nothing but, his editor kinda sounds like a jerk.

Didn't he make his editor a villain in Dr.Slump?

testing223 · Post by **testing223** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 1:11 am

What a shame. So the original Gohan story from the Buu saga will remain untold forever, locked in Toriyama's brain. And since he's said he's forgetting a lot of DB stuff already...it's gone forever.

Toriyama Boss · Post by **Toriyama Boss** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:59 am

SonEric84 wrote:It's a mistake in the subtitles on one of Funimation's discs...I think it's either movie 9 or Cell era episodes somewhere?

Hmmm...Never seen funimations dub on that.

Herms, I could translate those entire Interviews for you guys but the images are to small.

MajinVejitaXV · Post by **MajinVejitaXV** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:51 pm

How many Shenron Times volumes were there? I have all 7 hard cover Daizenshuu, and I know not every volume came with a Shenron Times insert. Just curious to see which ones I'm missing, if any.

-Corey

Post by **Herms** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:27 pm

MajinVejitaXV wrote:How many Shenron Times volumes were there? I have all 7 hard cover Daizenshuu, and I know not every volume came with a Shenron Times insert. Just curious to see which ones I'm missing, if any.

-Corey

The Shenlong Times for Daizenshuu 7 is labled as no.7, so presumably all of the hardcover daizenshuu originally came with one. However, my copies of Daizenshuu 1 and 4 didn't include any Shenlong Times, so I can't completely confirm this. I only have one of the soft-cover daizenshuu (10), and it didn't come with any Shenlong Times. I don't know if my copy just didn't include it or if none of the softcover daizenshuu originally had any.

Post by **Herms** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:51 pm

Here is my translation of the Akira Toriyama's Dragon Ball Character Secrets Discussion (toriyama akira ga o-okuri suru doragon booru kyara himitsu no hanashi, lt. "Dragon Ball Character Secret Stories that Akira Toriyama sent in" or something to that effect), from p.122 of Daizenshuu 7. My notes are in [] marks, while picture captions are preceeded by my description of the picture that they went with, indented and in <> marks. I'm not sure if Toriyama wrote the captions for these pictures. Most are just generic captions, while some of them seem to be written in Toriyama's...voice, I guess you could say.

Akira Toriyama's Dragon Ball Character Secrets Discussion

Here we'll intoduce you to some background information on the Dragon Ball characters! However, since these were asked directly to Toriyama-sensei, they're authentic background information and not fabrications. I wonder what kind of information it'll be?

Where did Lunch go?

Lunch went chasing after Tenshinhan. While Tenshinhan and Chaozu where training, they moved from place to place, so Lunch was unable to meet up with them. This is extremely off-topic, but when #17 appears again near the end, Lunch was drawn underneath him.

<Bulma asking Kuririn where Lunch is, along with a picture of #17 from the end of the series> Understand that I was thinking of #17's line near the end as being Lunch's line.

[I think what all this is supposed to mean is that Toriyama originally drew Lunch saying that line ("It's been a long time since I've heard that voice."), but then changed his mind for whatever reason and drew #17 over his original drawing of Lunch.]

How did #17 and #18 become androids?

Ye~ah, before those two became androids they were notorious delinquents. Dr. Gero was looking for fresh material for his experiments and they met by chance; he then kidnapped them and restructured them [into androids]. Because Gero had kidnapped them against their will, they resented him, which is why they were insubordinate.

<#18 informing Kuririn that she and #17 are twins> #17 and #18 were twin delinquents. That's my feeling.

Where did Pilaf and co. go?

Pilaf and co. plotted world domination for a lo~ng time, working in secret. However, when Cell appeared they decided to evaluate the situation a little more and postponed their plans. When they were thinking about making a move again, Buu appeared and they postponed their plans again, bringing us to the present.

<Pilaf and co. being thrown out of their own air-ship by Piccolo Daimaou> The last scene that they appeared in in the original story. It seems that even after this they continued to plot world domination.

How did Kuririn and #18 get married?

A lot happened in that seven-year period. #18 had never met someone like Kuririn, so honest and unsophisticated. You could say that she gradually came to fall for him. At least, in my head that's the sort of love story that I thought would do it. For Bulma and Vegeta too, I guess. However, I definitely wouldn't draw that in the manga. It'd just be embarrassing. I leave that kind of lovey-dovey stuff to my friend Masakazu Katsura . [Masakazu Katsura is a manga artist most well know for creating Video Girl Ai, I"s, and Zetman]

<#18, after Kuririn wished the bombs be removed from her and #17> #18, unable to conceal her confusion after being saved by Kuririn. Is this the beginning of love?

<Kuririn, #18 and Maron on Kame Sen'nin's island> Seven years after the scene on the right [that is, the picture described above]. In that time, many things have happened for these two.

How are the two Trunks different?

Well, to put it plainly, the Trunks from the future and this [timeline's] Trunks are different people. One lived frugally with only his mother remaining, while the other was raised indulgently in a rich household and was influenced by his father. Their environments were completely different. Incidentally, the future's Trunks has a lot of female fans, while this [timeline's] Trunks is popular with children. A person's environment is a good example of how personality can be influenced.

<picture of future Trunks going to fight the androids> A diligent personality and fearless features. That he has many female fans also confirms this.

<present Trunks as an adult, flying in his air-car> About the same age as the above Trunks. Do his child fans want to be raised in this manner?

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:28 pm

Nice! XD XD XD

... I want to see a scene now of Pilaf and Co. watching *** planning for their next move, when on the TV there is suddenly a report concerning Cell... and then we get to enjoy the brief argument that would ensue as Mai and Shou(SP?) try to convince Pilaf of the danger and he finally relents...

Pilaf: All right, this time, we have enough money that if we call the right people and use the right postal service, we can build a Dragonball Magnet! No more running around dealing with monkey boys and demons!
Shou: Oh, that's so much better than getting slaped around and dropped from our own ship!
Pilaf: And it means I don't have to pay the two of you!
Cell: Greetings, television audience!
Mai: ... Are you sure now is a good time?
Pilaf: What do you mean? He may be a powerful monser but once we have the dragon balls...
Shou: But the postal service won't deliver our parts with a murderous psychopath like that on the loose!
Pilaf: I guess you're right... *sigh*. Very well. I don't know why he even bothers... Piccolo tried public anouncement and look what happened to him... *changes the channel to soaps*

Thanks for more Toriyama-based goodness, Herms!