Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #1 Thread: "Broly"

[Hulk10]

Cheelai doesn't confuse me much. But I do wonder about how she views Broly.

[TheRed259]

The Light Novel tie in for the movie says that Broly stopped beating on Frieza the moment he was no longer a threat.

Interesting. But what was Broly doing the whole time? Blasting the air? LOL

Cheelai doesn't confuse me much. But I do wonder about how she views Broly.

Like a brother she wanna protect? Like a friend she has sympathy for?

[Shineman]

Cheelai’s behaviour was quite confusing, but I doubt her role was to have the audience side with her. Her questionable choices are part of her character, and what she did for Broly was because she had a sympathy for him and disliked how Paragus treated him. She’s also probably a morally grey character and I suppose she would have been fine if Broly killed the soldier who was flirting with her.

I can understand Cheelai’s actions as part of her character; I have no issues on that standpoint. My issues falls in line how the film addresses the issues by having Cheelai hammered down that Broly is abused, used as a tool, etc., but the dialogue suggest otherwise. Sympathy is one thing, but I felt that her character constantly going on and on about Broly being this and that become tiresome; especially in the second half of the film, it proves Paragus was in the right.

It feels like it sides with Cheelai on that Paragus is indeed a bad father, but the film also shows that Paragus truly and dearly cared for his son. It feels confusing for me. I hope that make sense?

So I mean, overall, did you like the movie? Score on a scale of 1 to 10?

I give it a 6 or 7 out of 10. It has really good animation, wonderful fights and majority of the music (same for them) was good; narrative had huge issues though. In comparison with the original, Broly film, I prefer original than the reboot.

[Hulk10]

The Light Novel tie in for the movie says that Broly stopped beating on Frieza the moment he was no longer a threat.

Interesting. But what was Broly doing the whole time? Blasting the air? LOL

Cheelai doesn't confuse me much. But I do wonder about how she views Broly.

Like a brother she wanna protect? Like a friend she has sympathy for?

Who knows maybe?

[Doctor.]

The last words in the original manga are literally "I will surpass you one day, Kakarot." If you think after the Buu arc Vegeta has no desire to surpass Goku, then you misinterpreted his development.

Actually, that depends on whether I like how Toriyama handled his own ending too. Which (gasp) I really don't. What if i said the entire last 2 chapters ultimately felt retrogressive. What if I said I would have considered that last line to be equally as egregious as I consider Super's Vegeta? And what if i said, that even WITH that line in there, that wouldn't necessarily make Vegeta as antagonistic toward Goku as he is in Super?

Maybe i've been watching too much Dragon ball Dissection, but honestly, yeah, A lot of things Toriyama does in the end of his series feel like a mistake. There could have been a far more cathartic, and fitting ending to such a long series than Goku abandoning his family to train some random kid. across the world, when Goku can move to anybody's ki signature in the blink of an eye.

That line is only in the Kanzenban ending, which came out around... 2004-ish I wanna say? Anyway, the original Tankobon ending doesn't include that line from Vegeta.

[Shaddy]

I never saw much in the "Vegeta shouldn't try to improve alongside Goku anymore" thing. I always thought that it was more about Vegeta not being a dipshit than just outright stepping down and letting Goku take center-stage. In all of Z there would be at least one point in every arc where Vegeta made things inexorably worse out of pride or selfishness, but everything he's done since then has either been under control or in the best interest of protecting his family and the Earth, and that's what I thought it was about. That's why Goku says "you're one of the good guys now!". There's nothing in that that says he isn't allowed to keep a friendly (well, "friendly") rivalry with the dude.

What is a problem is them repeating the "he really DOES care!" character moment every other arc. It's not special anymore, guys.

[Kinokima]

What is a problem is them repeating the "he really DOES care!" character moment every other arc. It's not special anymore, guys.

The issue is this aspect is part of Vegeta’s character. He’s a Tsundere. Also it’s not he really DOES care. Everyone knows Vegeta cares. His family knows, Goku knows, the rest of the Z fighters know. The only one who thinks (mistakenly) that he hides it well is Vegeta. And when Vegeta is showing his Tsun side (which is the default) some fans don’t get it either and think when he shows he cares it’s the same character arc again. Its not, it’s just Vegeta being well Vegeta. Being standoffish most of the time and then showing a caring side is part of Vegeta’s appeal. Obviously Tsunderes aren’t going to appeal to everyone (to me they seem especially divisive & misunderstood in Western fandom) but as Vegeta was again the top male Tsundere in a Japanese poll recently (and sorry I don’t have the link) I don’t think they are going to change this aspect of his character.


That being said yes it would be nice if they took Vegeta’s character in new directions too and this isn’t the only thing we got.

[Shaddy]

I'm not talking about Vegeta's reluctance to do things, I'm talking about repeating the moments from the Cell and Buu arcs and Battle of Gods, where he goes all-out to protect his family in a fit of rage, and everyone is impressed. Repeating the Buu saga explosion in the ToP arc, or having him go "My Cabba" has no weight when we've seen it before and he hasn't stopped caring about the people he cares about. It's got nothing to do with "tsundere" (and even if it does, it's type-2 shitty tsundere at best).

[Kinokima]

I'm not talking about Vegeta's reluctance to do things, I'm talking about repeating the moments from the Cell and Buu arcs and Battle of Gods, where he goes all-out to protect his family in a fit of rage, and everyone is impressed. Repeating the Buu saga explosion in the ToP arc, or having him go "My Cabba" has no weight when we've seen it before and he hasn't stopped caring about the people he cares about. It's got nothing to do with "tsundere" (and even if it does, it's type-2 shitty tsundere at best).

But if you look at those moments no one in the series was impressed that Vegeta cared. There were no comments oh wow Vegeta really is a good guy that cares about Bulma or Cabba.


In BOG Goku literally teases Vegeta about the moment and then Vegeta tries to deny it out of embarrassment.


This is what I mean by Tsundere. Vegeta’s default side is Tsun or Jerk but to make the Tsundere work you also need the Dere or Caring Side to come out. The reason why Vegeta’s love for his family or caring about Cabba tends to be emphasized is because having those emotional & caring moments is part of the appeal of a Tsundere. And since this is a fighting series what better time to have them come out then when Vegeta is in a desperate fight?


I understand the moments themselves are repetitive for some fans. I personally enjoy them but I am also not disagreeing that I wouldn’t mind seeing new things for Vegeta too or more moments that show he cares that don’t involve fighting & power ups. But then again my favorite aspect of Dragon Ball is slice of life.

[Lukmendes]

It is established in the manga that fusion wears off after 30 mins and that you cannot immediately dance yourself into fusion again but have to wait which is why Super Boo waited for Trunks and Goten to cool down and then fuse back. Of course I am pretty sure it was forgotten for the movie but those are the rules. "Gogeta should try again in 30 minutes" is related to just the fusion time itself. If anything, its a plot hole.

This is what I like to call a "Ping pong retcon", since originaly there was no "You need to wait one hour to try to fuse again", everytime Goten and Trunks failed to do the fusion, Piccolo just said "Wait half an hour and try again", and there were no comments about needing to wait an hour afterwards, it's during the Super Boo fight that suddenly this one hour of waiting was added, so I guess Toriyama just retconned to how it originaly worked lol.

[Cetra]

This is what I like to call a "Ping pong retcon", since originaly there was no "You need to wait one hour to try to fuse again", everytime Goten and Trunks failed to do the fusion, Piccolo just said "Wait half an hour and try again", and there were no comments about needing to wait an hour afterwards, it's during the Super Boo fight that suddenly this one hour of waiting was added, so I guess Toriyama just retconned to how it originaly worked lol.

I would not call it a ping pong retcon for the mere reason that one was the final version of the original work and you can hardly compare a decision 25 years later with two decisions between just a few chapters that he wrote in a span of a few months (vol. 40 and 41). The final version of what was said (in regards to the manga) should have priority otherwise no one knows what the hell is going on when comparing it to a new line of dialogue.

[TheRed259]

Did you see the map they released? Unless I am missing something, they are saying 90 countries but have less than 40 marked?

[Sora Saiyan]

This is what I like to call a "Ping pong retcon", since originaly there was no "You need to wait one hour to try to fuse again", everytime Goten and Trunks failed to do the fusion, Piccolo just said "Wait half an hour and try again", and there were no comments about needing to wait an hour afterwards, it's during the Super Boo fight that suddenly this one hour of waiting was added, so I guess Toriyama just retconned to how it originaly worked lol.

I would not call it a ping pong retcon for the mere reason that one was the final version of the original work and you can hardly compare a decision 25 years later with two decisions between just a few chapters that he wrote in a span of a few months (vol. 40 and 41). The final version of what was said (in regards to the manga) should have priority otherwise no one knows what the hell is going on when comparing it to a new line of dialogue.

When a fusion goes wrong it’s half an hour until you can fuse again as Piccolo said on the second failed fusion attempt, and obviously at that point he’s got a reference. When done correctly you have to wait an extra hour as confirmed by Gotenks, who again has reference. Fits perfectly fine with what was shown here and in the manga. As a technique used for combat this seems reasonably sensible. Fusion gives an insane boost but there’s a downside. Fail and you’re most definitely gonna be killed, but if by some miracle you survive you can try again. The perfect version is amazing, but the ever so slight drawback is the cooldown period after the 30 minutes. Honestly it would just be unfair to punish the failed attempt twice when the punishment for getting it wrong is so many times worse.

Also if this was a retcon, even though it’s not, Toriyama has previously stated that he can freely mess around with what’s been established because he’s the original author.

[Cetra]

When a fusion goes wrong it’s half an hour until you can fuse again as Piccolo said on the second failed fusion attempt, and obviously at that point he’s got a reference. When done correctly you have to wait an extra hour as confirmed by Gotenks, who again has reference. Fits perfectly fine with what was shown here and in the manga. As a technique used for combat this seems reasonably sensible. Fusion gives an insane boost but there’s a downside. Fail and you’re most definitely gonna be killed, but if by some miracle you survive you can try again. The perfect version is amazing, but the ever so slight drawback is the cooldown period after the 30 minutes. Honestly it would just be unfair to punish the failed attempt twice when the punishment for getting it wrong is so many times worse.

Also if this was a retcon, even though it’s not, Toriyama has previously stated that he can freely mess around with what’s been established because he’s the original author.

Yes, it is a retcon (or to be more precise, actually a plothole) and no, they never said "when you fail you only have to wait the normal fusion time". And plothole is plothole, don't come at me with this "original author" excuse as if an author could not make a mistake by being inconsistent. It is more likely a plothole than an intended case of retroactive continuity.

As I already said, you have to take the most previous information in the manga, not the one you want just because vol 40 is more convenient for you than the one that came afterwards. And once again, no, they never said "well, because you have failed its fine, you have no cooldown". The logical conclusion of "well after 30 mins" + "I can only do it after 1 hour later" is "they had to wait until the fusion disconnected and then had to pause as individuals". I think I already said in in like 3 posts now that their is no problem with them and their 30 mins comments (manga and movie) only referring to the process of waiting for the de-fusion itself.

For a person with a Kingdom Hearts related name you should know that writers very well can be inconsistent with their narrative. Nobody is saying Toriyama-san cannot do what he wants. But saying "well, failures have less time" is something that was just never established and no, vol. 40 only mentioning the 30 mins does not imply that if there was new info added one volume later. Not once was it said to be exactly this rule. This is like when people said "oh well Gohan is Ultimate now so its a fact that he cannot go Super Saiyan (even though the manga implies something completely different)".

You can argue if vol. 41 has a retcon that is troublesome for vol. 40 but that one as an addition is by far less problematic than just going wild for the movie and ignoring half of the information given and saying "well, its like this, they never meant that you always had to wait". This is classic defense of anything Dragon Ball related. Its like defending the Cell plothole. And as said, in the manga the fusion thing would not even be problematic because they never directly said what you said, leaving the most obvious conclusion to be a general cooldown.

[TheRed259]

Maybe the map shows all the countries confirmed for now.
https://twitter.com/DBSChronicles/statu ... 9244500993

[Doctor.]

Maybe the map shows all the countries confirmed for now.
https://twitter.com/DBSChronicles/statu ... 9244500993

I haven't seen anything confirming Portugal yet.

[Gafonso6]

Maybe the map shows all the countries confirmed for now.
https://twitter.com/DBSChronicles/statu ... 9244500993

I haven't seen anything confirming Portugal yet.

You have now. The distributor here hasn't spoke up yet but Shueisha went ahead and did it. We're getting the movie, now it's just a matter of when.

[Doctor.]

Maybe the map shows all the countries confirmed for now.
https://twitter.com/DBSChronicles/statu ... 9244500993

I haven't seen anything confirming Portugal yet.

You have now. The distributor here hasn't spoke up yet but Shueisha went ahead and did it. We're getting the movie, now it's just a matter of when.

I'll assume January is out of the question or else they would have started promoting it already, so I assume early February?

[Gafonso6]

I haven't seen anything confirming Portugal yet.

You have now. The distributor here hasn't spoke up yet but Shueisha went ahead and did it. We're getting the movie, now it's just a matter of when.

I'll assume January is out of the question or else they would have started promoting it already, so I assume early February?

January is out of the question for every country that has connections with Toei Europe unfortunately. My bet woul be mid-to-late February, with more focus on late February.

[Sora Saiyan]

Yes, it is a retcon (or to be more precise, actually a plothole) and no, they never said "when you fail you only have to wait the normal fusion time". And plothole is plothole, don't come at me with this "original author" excuse as if an author could not make a mistake by being inconsistent. It is more likely a plothole than an intended case of retroactive continuity.

As I already said, you have to take the most previous information in the manga, not the one you want just because vol 40 is more convenient for you than the one that came afterwards. And once again, no, they never said "well, because you have failed its fine, you have no cooldown". The logical conclusion of "well after 30 mins" + "I can only do it after 1 hour later" is "they had to wait until the fusion disconnected and then had to pause as individuals". I think I already said in in like 3 posts now that their is no problem with them and their 30 mins comments (manga and movie) only referring to the process of waiting for the de-fusion itself.

For a person with a Kingdom Hearts related name you should know that writers very well can be inconsistent with their narrative. Nobody is saying Toriyama-san cannot do what he wants. But saying "well, failures have less time" is something that was just never established and no, vol. 40 only mentioning the 30 mins does not imply that if there was new info added one volume later. Not once was it said to be exactly this rule. This is like when people said "oh well Gohan is Ultimate now so its a fact that he cannot go Super Saiyan (even though the manga implies something completely different)".

You can argue if vol. 41 has a retcon that is troublesome for vol. 40 but that one as an addition is by far less problematic than just going wild for the movie and ignoring half of the information given and saying "well, its like this, they never meant that you always had to wait". This is classic defense of anything Dragon Ball related. Its like defending the Cell plothole. And as said, in the manga the fusion thing would not even be problematic because they never directly said what you said, leaving the most obvious conclusion to be a general cooldown.

I’ve just gotta day that the manga did a really interesting thing with fusion. It allowed us, the readers, to learn along with the cast. The first fusion fails and we get fat Gotenks. Piccolo tells him to change back, Gotenks says he doesn’t know how to so they wait the half an hour. No statement of when they fuse again yet, apart from Piccolo saying we don’t have a moment to spare upon them defusing and the next panel immediately follows up with them attempting it again.
The second attempt is when we find out that they can try again in half an hour, as Piccolo actually says “do it over... in another half an hour”. Here the dialogue clearly shows that they can then fuse again immediately.

The main point is that we don’t know how fusion works at that point, so anything that comes later doesn’t truly contradict anything as one time frame is in regards to failed fusions, and the second is in regards to correct fusions. It’s not technically a plot hole, or a retcon because it was never stated or alluded to that they follow the same rules, and in universe that’s clearly the case, especially when its matched with what is presented in this film. Also I’m fairly certain that the correct fusion of Gogeta couldn’t immediately refuse again like the failed fusions did.
Honestly I don’t see how it’s a retcon, it would be crazy if a perfect fusion could immediately fuse again once the time limit expires prior to this “plothole”. It would’ve just been insane, and the time limit would be pretty much useless. I’d agree that it’s a plothole if this was a correct fusions cooldown period being non existent, and then later 60 minutes but as it stands it’s easy to say a failed fusion works different, and to me that’s the case. You can disagree but there’s nothing that definitively proves what you’re saying as your argument is comparing a failed to a correct, and there’s nothing implying that they must work the same, infact it’s the opposite in universe.

Btw, I wasn’t saying that Toriyama gets a free pass. In fact it was Toriyama himself who said he’s allowed to change shit because he’s the original author. We can decide to not agree with this, but in this series he has a hell of a lot more authority than any of us fans.
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/2015/08/02/ne ... -comments/

I guess you could say that some things are difficult for anyone but the original author to write, because only the original author can freely mess around with what’s already been established. A scriptwriter would get tied up trying not to screw with the original story, so in that respect they’d probably have a harder time messing around with things.