Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by omegacwa » Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:06 am

Shaddy wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:06 am
Remember, Julie's initial comment that omegacwa chose for his dumb shit-stirring was about how, and I quote:
Look, I understood her point but it was still pretty disgusting to generalize like she did. Broad generalizations like that are harmful to everyone. Also I have been more than civil when it comes to this argument and if you read my other posts you'd see that I am more than fine with diversity, even offering up suggestions that could feasibly work in the context of the Dragon Ball world.

I wasn't "dumb shit stirring" I was pointing out what I felt was a hypocritical attitude.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:30 am

omegacwa wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:06 am
Shaddy wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:06 am
Remember, Julie's initial comment that omegacwa chose for his dumb shit-stirring was about how, and I quote:
Look, I understood her point but it was still pretty disgusting to generalize like she did. Broad generalizations like that are harmful to everyone. Also I have been more than civil when it comes to this argument and if you read my other posts you'd see that I am more than fine with diversity, even offering up suggestions that could feasibly work in the context of the Dragon Ball world.

I wasn't "dumb shit stirring" I was pointing out what I felt was a hypocritical attitude.
It wasn't hypocritical, though. I was specifically targeting rude asshole Mignogna followers who automatically see him--and by projection, themselves--as victims of minorities. I make it clear on several instances that this is a result of wealthy and powerful folks turning the working-class against itself.


As for my own privilege, I already explained that I'm susceptible to being murdered or assaulted in public now. Everytime I go out in a skirt and make-up I take my life into my own hands. Everytime I fight against twenty years of pretending to be male by turning my femininity up I risk being denied business, given cold shoulders, or being called a slur. I'm currently looking for a new job and am terrified of what I'm going to do because transgender woman gave difficulties finding work. Am I really going to have to pretend to ve a man just to get a fucking job? Am I going to have to 'come out' all over again at my new job? Will their behavior trigger my social anxiety and panic attacks again?

Also, don't call me a man. I've always been a girl.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by omegacwa » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:49 am

JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:30 am
omegacwa wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:06 am
Shaddy wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:06 am
Remember, Julie's initial comment that omegacwa chose for his dumb shit-stirring was about how, and I quote:
Look, I understood her point but it was still pretty disgusting to generalize like she did. Broad generalizations like that are harmful to everyone. Also I have been more than civil when it comes to this argument and if you read my other posts you'd see that I am more than fine with diversity, even offering up suggestions that could feasibly work in the context of the Dragon Ball world.

I wasn't "dumb shit stirring" I was pointing out what I felt was a hypocritical attitude.
It wasn't hypocritical, though. I was specifically targeting rude asshole Mignogna followers who automatically see him--and by projection, themselves--as victims of minorities. I make it clear on several instances that this is a result of wealthy and powerful folks turning the working-class against itself.
I didn't mean your statement specifically, more so your attitude, but that's fine. I'm glad things have been cleared up. No worries.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Ryuji-Otogi » Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:19 pm

XanatosVanBadass wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 2:41 pm
There are many successful series that promote LGBTQ+ characters. She-Ra and Miraculous Ladybug to name a few. It would be nice if DB would join the 21st century.
Dragon Ball is in the 21st century, with or without LBGT characters. Anyway, Whis and General Blue have something to say to you. 😏

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by DragonBallLove » Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:33 pm

Has anyone mentioned BNHA in the 15 pages that preceeds this one?

Because THAT is how you do queer representation in anime. Just my two cents.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by KaiserNeko » Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:58 pm

DragonBallLove wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:33 pm
Has anyone mentioned BNHA in the 15 pages that preceeds this one?

Because THAT is how you do queer representation in anime. Just my two cents.
MHA has barely had any LGBT+ characters at all, with the only ones existing requiring supplementary material to understand that aspect of their characters. Also, one of them dies.

I'm glad we got them, but that's... not great
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by omegacwa » Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:02 pm

Does no one here watch Walking Dead? There are lesbian and gay characters, female leads, disabled characters, characters of pretty much every race, and a possibly non binary character.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by KaiserNeko » Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:48 pm

omegacwa wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:02 pm
Does no one here watch Walking Dead? There are lesbian and gay characters, female leads, disabled characters, characters of pretty much every race, and a possibly non binary character.
Oh yeah. It definitely did its best.

Legitimately too bad it went to shit.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:10 pm

I just noticed that Magne-nee dies. I wish she had lived because not only was she relatable as a trans woman but she provides a casual look into who trans women often are. Seeing her finally get the chance to transition would have been nice.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Ryuji-Otogi » Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:21 pm

Honestly, when I saw this thread’s title, I initially thought it was satire. Are we really up to that many letters now?

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:54 pm

Ryuji-Otogi wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:21 pm
Honestly, when I saw this thread’s title, I initially thought it was satire. Are we really up to that many letters now?
LGBTQ+ is the usual abbreviation. Some folks try to be more inclusive. I use LGBTQIA+ to include intersex and asexual folks. Hopefully we can move to GSRM (Gender, Sex, and Romantic Minorities) soon.

We've all existed since ancient times. There's nothing new about us.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by XanatosVanBadass » Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:36 pm

JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:54 pm
Ryuji-Otogi wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:21 pm
Honestly, when I saw this thread’s title, I initially thought it was satire. Are we really up to that many letters now?
LGBTQ+ is the usual abbreviation. Some folks try to be more inclusive. I use LGBTQIA+ to include intersex and asexual folks. Hopefully we can move to GSRM (Gender, Sex, and Romantic Minorities) soon.

We've all existed since ancient times. There's nothing new about us.
I never knew of that abbreviation until you posted it. I admit it’s more... wieldie (sp?) and harder for toxic people to make fun of. Not that it’d stop them sadly.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by KaiserNeko » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:00 pm

XanatosVanBadass wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:36 pm
JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:54 pm
Ryuji-Otogi wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:21 pm
Honestly, when I saw this thread’s title, I initially thought it was satire. Are we really up to that many letters now?
LGBTQ+ is the usual abbreviation. Some folks try to be more inclusive. I use LGBTQIA+ to include intersex and asexual folks. Hopefully we can move to GSRM (Gender, Sex, and Romantic Minorities) soon.

We've all existed since ancient times. There's nothing new about us.
I never knew of that abbreviation until you posted it. I admit it’s more... wieldie (sp?) and harder for toxic people to make fun of. Not that it’d stop them sadly.
I much prefer it, personally. GSRM is simple and easy to remember, and covers everything simply.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:01 pm

XanatosVanBadass wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:36 pm
JulieYBM wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:54 pm
Ryuji-Otogi wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:21 pm
Honestly, when I saw this thread’s title, I initially thought it was satire. Are we really up to that many letters now?
LGBTQ+ is the usual abbreviation. Some folks try to be more inclusive. I use LGBTQIA+ to include intersex and asexual folks. Hopefully we can move to GSRM (Gender, Sex, and Romantic Minorities) soon.

We've all existed since ancient times. There's nothing new about us.
I never knew of that abbreviation until you posted it. I admit it’s more... wieldie (sp?) and harder for toxic people to make fun of. Not that it’d stop them sadly.
I learned of it recently. I think I learned it from one of the various trans sub-Reddits. It's also in books like Yes, You Are Trans Enough and Love Lives Here. GSRM is so much less wordy.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Soppa Saia People » Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:32 am

Ryuji-Otogi wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:21 pm
Honestly, when I saw this thread’s title, I initially thought it was satire. Are we really up to that many letters now?
i swear like half the posts in this thread are about the title, and a lot of the LGBTQ+ members have given plently helpful responses about acronyms for the community, i really don't get why people keep bringing it up.
Last edited by Soppa Saia People on Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:07 am

Soppa Saia People wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:32 am
Ryuji-Otogi wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:21 pm
Honestly, when I saw this thread’s title, I initially thought it was satire. Are we really up to that many letters now?
i swear like half the posts in this thread are about the title, and a lot of the LGBTQ+ have given plently helpful responses about an acronym for the community, i really don't get why people keep bringing it up.
I don't get it, either. Like, g*sh, read Wikipedia or something, honey.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Shaddy » Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:12 am

I always pronounce LGBT in my head as "ligg butt".

GSRM sounds like "Gizz ROM".

Is game data of Australian psych rock bands an upgrade from eating ass? That's not for me to decide.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:16 am

Shaddy wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:12 am
I always pronounce LGBT in my head as "ligg butt".

GSRM sounds like "Gizz ROM".

Is game data of Australian psych rock bands an upgrade from eating ass? That's not for me to decide.
Eating ass is never easy...I would assume. There's a lot of preparation time needed and frankly I wouldn't feel safe putting my face near an ass. G*sh, I hope my partner doesn't want to try it someday...

GSRM is so much easier to say, but I doubt the mainstream will let it catch on. I think they are too use to eating ass and see it as more recognizable as 'queer'.
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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Kunzait_83 » Fri Nov 22, 2019 5:14 am

Note: the vast bulk of this post was written several weeks ago, but due to a vast, vast array of real life responsibilities, I wasn't able to properly finish and post it until today.

Alright, so full disclaimer of intent here so that nobody is under any mistaken impressions about where it is I'm coming from here: I'm going to try and make some semi-productive use of some of my Cis White Male PrivilegeTM here and take time and mental energy to wade into and navigate this minefield full stop.

The entirety of this post is going to be spent with me utterly eviscerating the holy living mother of fucking hell out of this specific post that was made several pages ago by one SuperSaiyanZero here in response to a few posts by Kendamu and which I found to be particularly cringe-worthy, and in some instances almost downright ghoulishly horrible in its total total lack of regard for the stakes, severity, gravity, and basic critical, historic, and material understanding of the issues facing LGBTQ people.

Also important to note that I will be giving SuperSaiyanZero as much the full benefit of the doubt that he's engaging in purely good faith here, and isn't being purposefully disingenuous & malicious in his arguments. The fact that we even need to make that distinction in the first place is a beyond sad indictment of internet discourse in itself, but such is the reality in which we're living in.

The reason that this matters and warrants such a thorough and dense breakdown is because SuperSaiyanZero (in just the one post I'm going to be dissecting here; I haven't even had much chance to look very closely at much of that which has followed it in the past couple of weeks) parrots a vast myriad of incredibly dumb, ignorant, and in some cases, legit harmful nonsense and baseless/ridiculous assumptions regarding the LGBTQ community, particularly within the present day online nerd communal discourse.

And directly at a couple of trans women here no less, one of whom (Kendamu) happens to be someone who – in the interest of total disclosure here - has over the years grown to be a good personal friend of mine.

Rather than simply being relegated to the minutia of a 30 year old children's kung fu fantasy cartoon, the substance this entire post is pertaining to a type of thinking and overall mentality regarding something – that something being the broader perception of the LGBTQ community and their struggle for basic decency and for equal & just treatment throughout society - that has some vestige of actual tangible significance and that on some level has the power to actually affect/harm real people out in the real world.

I also want to make a personal note here directed specifically at SuperSaiyanZero himself (if he ever bothers to actually read this whole thing): yes, obviously I don't know you personally. Yes, you and I are perfect strangers on a stupid Dragon Ball forum. And yes, the “tone” of the language that I use to make my points is blunt, harsh, and uncompromising.

That being said, what I would like for you to do (if at all possible) is to take your personal pride and ego out of this discussion as much as humanly possible for just a little while, and try to think about this from a MUCH broader perspective that extends well outside of just your own personal purview. And understand that the reason why my tone and words are as harsh as they are, specifically within this context, is because this is a topic (regarding the broader view and treatment of LGBTQ people across media and in online spaces like this one) that is of GREAT significance and importance to millions upon millions of people out there, myself included.

I in no way want to sugarcoat both how deeply important this topic is in general as well as the immense layers of awfulness contained within your overall basic approach to it – that I can clearly see you aren't even aware of – and at the same time, what I would like very much to come of this post (again assuming you actually bother to read through it) is for you to hopefully have enough basic humility to maybe perhaps rethink your ENTIRE initial baseline set of assumptions and general framework regarding how and moreover why LGBTQ individuals - such as Kendamu and Julie within this thread here – engage in these kinds of discussions in the first place.

We good with that? Ok. So with all the necessary caveats and preamble out of the way, we can now begin...

Part 1
supersaiyanZero wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:44 pm
Nobody is calling you identity politics. Nobody is diminishing you as a human being.
Your personal intent may not have been to do this, but there's a ton of shit both throughout this post of yours - that I'm going to actually take time out of my day to try and unpack and dissect as best and as detailed as I can under the assumption that you are indeed a good faith actor here and are not actively trying to be a dick just for the sake of it - as well as moreover within the current day context of the term “Identity Politics” (and its use within *specifically* conversations like this one) that has that effect regardless of your personal intent, and sends that very message - the message that "your mere existence as a minority" is what's meant by "Identity Politics".

Because of a LOT of recent political context (that I'm going to infer that you simply are utterly unaware of, once more in the interest of assuming good faith in your positions here), the term has for maybe the past 6 or 7 years now become widely recognized and understood (again, mainly within certain specific contexts, such as namely discussions like this one about minority representation across media) as a dog whistle talking point masking itself under the guise of an intellectual argument to try and belittle any minorities who step out of line too much and "don't know their place".

The biggest problem I'm seeing from you throughout this thread is that you are blanket dismissing people who are much, MUCH more deeply involved in this stuff on a day to day/minute by minute basis than you self-evidently appear to be, and thus frankly know way the hell more about it than you do.

supersaiyanZero wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:44 pm
And it might be somewhat of a shock, but most people don't care if you're trans, non-binary, queer, double-binary, or any other letter of the alphabet. I certainly don't.
So I've done a whole rash of posts on here recently about how people in Dragon Ball fandom have tended to do a lot of blind assuming and personal projecting based upon purely their own perspectives and personal experiences with various shit.

In those discussions & contexts it was regarding largely fandom-related nonsense that is hardly of anywhere NEAR as actual, tangible importance as something like the social plight of LGBTQ people. So rather than waste further time with the topic on that bullshit, we'll move it over instead to something of FAR greater and more pressing substance here.

Because what you're literally doing here in that above sentence is exactly that: you are PURELY projecting what YOU personally think in your head onto others. i.e. "I personally don't care if someone is trans or non-binary or queer, ergo most other people must not care either!"

The reality of course - as literally almost any LGBTQ person will tell you (who maybe isn't stupidly well off financially at least: money has a way of insulating people from a lot of the world's harshest realities) and have endless hours upon hours upon hours upon hours upon hours of horrific, blood-curdling personal war stories regarding the topic to back it up - there is a LOT of "care" out there in the world regarding their mere existence and identity.

The day to day, lived-in reality of gay and trans people and the things they have to deal with day to day - both massively big and incredibly small - are nowhere remotely near what you or I, or virtually anyone else in the straight/cis world, has to contend with.

For some context: one of my closest, dearest friends (for the better part of about 20 years now) is a trans-woman. She lives out in California these days. Now you might think "California's a pretty liberal, tolerant place, so she probably doesn't have to deal with nearly as much bullshit as she otherwise might, right?"

Even out in Cali, she deals with both verbal and physical harassment & abuse - from co-workers and from random people on the streets - almost literally every single fucking day. No I didn't mis-type that nor am I using even the slightest hyperbole. Open, blatant transphobic harassment is an issue that plagues her day to day life almost literally every. Single. Day. Out in liberal-ass Southern California. Same goes for the other trans-folk that she's met and befriended while she's been out there.

Needless to say, you and I - as cis, straight, non-trans people - don't have to worry about this or experience this in our day to day lives. But when you're a trans person, people will out of fucking nowhere come up to you and start shit with you. Often as a matter of disturbingly regular occurrence. Sometimes its purely verbal. They'll call you demeaning names or slurs, they'll go out of their way to disrespect you and ask you shitty, horribly inappropriate questions constantly about your hair, your breasts & genitalia, the way you're dressed, etc.

That's at the best of times. Other times though, things will get physical. I can't count the number of instances just that I'm directly aware of (god only knows how many more I'm not) of people walking up to trans people and spitting on them. Right out in the streets, out in the open. Just literally, physically spit in their face. This is way more common than you'd think, even in so-called "Liberal Blue States".

Perfect strangers will get physically pushy and "handsy" with trans people at a moment's notice. Trans women in particular tend to have to be constantly vigilant and prepared to physically defend themselves almost literally EVERY SINGLE DAY at a moment's notice. Its exponentially worse if, god help you, you're a trans person of color.

And I'm not simply going off of the experiences of the one friend in question: I've known and been close with trans people (mostly women, but a few men as well) both in my family and among friends growing up. Several of my family's closest friends were very old-school trans women (going back to the 1960s, pre-Stonewall), others were cousins within my family (one of my cousins on my mom's side, which I'm VERY close to in general, is a trans male for example).

I've also been privileged to meet and befriend a lot more trans people over the years throughout my life as well. I've got literally endless pages upon pages upon pages worth of personal horror stories about their common, day to day experiences that could genuinely provide the basis for a series of blood-curdling horror novels.

Everything from non-trans romantic partners (usually men) who've drawn guns on them upon discovering who they are, to police officers harassing, arresting, and beating them in the streets (before planting drugs on their person to give an after-the-fact excuse): hell, one of them - one of my mother and grandmother's closest friends incidentally - owned her own hair salon right near where I grew up: and the local police would constantly raid the place and harass her purely because she was an openly trans woman who owned her own business in the neighborhood.

My aforementioned male trans cousin has had knives held to him and suffered at least one pretty severe beating (that I'm even aware of: I've no doubt there've been more) by a few old boyfriends from before he transitioned upon finding out who he was.

But don't just take my (or their) anecdotal word for it, as statistics and national studies bear these realities out to a LARGE degree (and WELL further beyond frankly).

Some highlights (or lowlights rather):

- Transgender people on average are nearly two times as likely to experience direct threats, intimidation, and physical assault (sexual and otherwise) than CIS gendered people. Much more if they're transgender people of color.

- Transgender women are nearly four and a half times more likely to be victims of homicide than cis-gendered women.

- More than 56% of transgender people who've gone to the police to report a hate crime (including serious violence, assault, and attempted murder) have faced negligence of their claims and outright abuse and mistreatment from the police. Studies have found that this is a direct causal factor in a great, great deal of transgender crimes going unreported or under-reported.

Meaning while the current statistical analysis we have on hand of transgender violence rates in general is far from complete, a cross-check of various trans violence and hate crime studies conducted throughout the years heavily indicates that the actual numbers and rates of violence against trans people is likely much, much, MUCH higher than the reports we currently have to go on.

- So-called "Trans Panic" is a VERY common motivation for transgender murders across numerous decades. A variation on "Gay Panic" (which is effectively the exact same concept, only applied to gay people), its when trans people are assaulted - and often killed - by a romantic/sexual partner upon the partner's discovery of their trans identity. Its so commonplace that it is actually recognized as a legitimate legal defense for people charged with murdering a transgender individual. That legal tactic is only NOW in very recent years *slowly* being rolled back, but in the U.S. its STILL a valid legal defense in at least 43 states.

More reading on this insane concept (which has a dense history in itself) can be found here, here, here, and here.

I can go on and on and on and on here for page after page after endless page, but I hope that gets across at least a general glimpse of the much wider, prevailing problem here.

The point of me delving into all of that is... while *you* may not personally care that someone you're talking to happens to be transgender, there's a lot more people out there in the broader world around you who care a great deal whether or not someone happens to be transgender, and *not* in a healthy or positive way. As it happens, there is indeed a FUCKLOAD of caring going on out in the real world regarding the existence of trans people as a part of society at large, and again its not the good kind of caring.

I also go into all of this due to - with all due respect, *ludicrously* naive (to out-and-out childlike degrees), cringingly oblivious, and laughably absurd - statements you make like this utter gem right here:

supersaiyanZero wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:44 pm
I think it's also because this is probably the most tolerant time in human history.
My dude... take a gander at some annual hate crime reports some time for just a mere glimpse at the soul-crushing reality: according to most studies (including notably those from the FBI's annual crime reports) hate crimes have been *sharply* increasing over just the past 5 or 6 years now. 2017 was found to be one of the single deadliest years for transgender murders on record (with 2016 and 2015 not far behind it).

Furthermore, in the just the past 4 years alone, activity and membership in anti-minority and white supremacist hate groups has jumped more than 30%, reaching a 20 year record high. And they've been escalating in not only targeting the usual black/brown/Jewish groups, but also gay and transgenders as well.

The point that I'm getting at here is - and I say this as clinically, dispassionately, and matter of factly as a simple statement of demonstrable reality with regards to your stated views on these issues - you have indicated quite beyond clearly throughout much of what you've been saying in this thread here that you simply do not have the *slightest*, FOGGIEST fucking idea what the hell you're talking about on the topic of transgender people. On even a broad basis, which I'll get to more of in a sec).

And maybe, just maaaaaaaaaybe that abject baseline cluelessness might play far more into the reason for why trans women on this forum like Kendamu and Julie might be coming down so harshly on you and the (pretty blatantly and obviously) dumbass, naive-as-all-hell bullshit that's coming out of your mouth, rather than your purported rationale that they're being "unreasonable", "irrational", or that they're "trying to push some insidious 'agenda' upon you" (more on the asinine "agenda" nonsense momentarily).

When minority groups talk so much about "privilege", they aren't just making up a nonsensical buzzword to use to senselessly beat cis-gendered White Hetero Men like you or I over the head with it: the phrase exists *precisely* to describe situations like when painfully oblivious cis/Hetero people say to them with a straight fucking face in 2019 (or hell, in pretty much damn near ANY given decade in either recent or distant history) some Golly Gee Willickers/1950s Ozzie & Harriet-level shit like "Most people don't care whether or not you're transgender" and "This is the most tolerant time in human history".

To that many would quite rightly respond: try telling that to the countless SCORES of trans people year in and year out who suffer constant, near-daily harassment, assault, and sexual abuse - and in many cases, can't even go to the fucking police because in more than half of most cases (that we even KNOW of on record) the cops will simply just join in on the abuse themselves rather than actually help them or take their case seriously) to say nothing of the families of those who've been stone cold murdered over their being trans.

To YOU it might not register innately or reflexively as all that big of a deal because YOU don't have to deal with these horrors and YOU don't personally know anyone else who HAS (one can assume, based on such statements you've made here) - or the very tangible and real threat of them, and all the palpable stress that comes with it: and it comes with a LOT of fucking very real and very daunting stress for most trans people, often on an hourly/minute-by-minute basis, never mind daily.

But to actual trans people (like the ones here in this thread that you're belittling and talking down to in that above post like an unbelievably arrogant prick) who *do* have to deal with it, you sound to them (and to anyone else who's actually better plugged into reality about this stuff) like a complete and absolute fucking world-class douchebag and you should in no way be surprised when they straight up tell you as much to your face.

Its one thing when a person is wrong or misguided about something. Its far, far worse when they're wrong and misguided about something that has actual life-and-death stakes to the lives of a large subset of people across the globe. And its utterly insufferable and infuriating when they're wrong or misguided on something that's a matter of literal life-and-death to so many people, AND they act incredibly smug and pompously self-assured in their bullheaded ignorance on top.

The problem with you throughout this entire thread SuperSaiyanZero, is that you're presenting yourself here as the latter-most of those. To no less than a couple of people who have far, *far* infinitely more firsthand experience and insight into this shit than either you (or I for that matter) ever, EVER will or could.

supersaiyanZero wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:44 pm
What I do care about, is injecting identity politics (or any political agenda, for that matter) in a kung fu cartoon. I care because A) It's something I've grown up with and have an emotional attachment to the 30+ years of source material and more importantly because B) on principle I cannot in any way shape or form ever think that retconning previous works simply to pander to a political ideology is ever OK.
Alright, so the "agenda" thing now.

Please, please do me a HUGE solid here: if or when you ever even eventually read or respond to any of this, outline for me what directly the atomic powered fuck "agenda" are we exactly talking about here? And please be specific! Be detailed! No vagueness!

An “agenda”, in contexts like this one at least, usually (though granted, not always) denotes some sneaky, insidious, devious scheme to attain *some* tangible goal, political or otherwise. Something or some way of "getting one over" on the rest of us schmucks.

So please, for the love of god tell me: when LGBTQ people are somehow "pushing for an agenda" through their wanting for equal/fair representation in silly nerd media (be it Dragon Ball or whatever the fuck else), what EXACTLY does that agenda consist of? And why exactly its SO terrible and SO harmful to us that the rest of us need to be SO outraged and offended by it?

What is it exactly that you think they want ultimately that is SO unfair or is too much or a bridge too far for them to ask?

And again, if/when you answer this: please remember: BE SPECIFIC! No vagueness or just throwing out stock buzzwords that masquerade themselves as a cogent argument. Walk us through the logic of the problem here with this “agenda” step by step: what do LGBTQ people seek to gain materially from this insidious “agenda”, and why is it such a negative, horrible thing, and how it will or could potentially negatively impact the rest of us (in a way that like, actually is genuinely serious or hazardous)?

In the meanwhile though, here's my answer to this question: as far as I can tell and as far as I've ever seen or heard or read from any LGBTQ person (or really, any oppressed or marginalized minority group) throughout aaaaaaaaaalll these great many years now... what I'm about to say here is really the ONLY thing they ultimately want at the end of the day when they talk about how they're represented in media. Ready for it?

What they want is fair/accurate representation of themselves reflected across media without constantly resorting to negative stereotypes. That's it. That's quite literally the beginning and the end of it.

They simply want the mass media and art that we all consume collectively to reflect a simple, fundamental, and impossible to ignore reality about their very core being in this world: that they exist among the rest of us within society and NOT apart from it as an "other", that they're a normal and everyday part of the world we live in, and they have every right to be both acknowledged and treated as every bit as normal and nuanced (not to mention fucking increasingly commonplace: they're not exactly hiding themselves out underground these days) in their media depictions as any non-trans, non-binary, or generally non-LGBTQ person generally and typically is.

They want for cis and non-binary people to NOT be treated by default as "the baseline" or "the default". Because they/we AREN'T the fucking "baseline" or "default" of jack fucking shit, and none of us who live on this planet are.

This right here is the core of what it means when people say that "identity politics" within the context of "minority representation in media" is often used as dog whistle for "don't acknowledge that LGBTQ people exist". They not only exist, but they are a normal, every day part of the world we live in, they ALWAYS HAVE been, and its only been due to acceptance of them (acceptance that has been helped along in no small part by increased and further widespread representation and visibility across mass, mainstream media) that we've gotten to a point where more and more people have seen just how fucking MANY of them there actually are and *have been* among us all along, and that there is absolutely nothing the least bit threatening, harmful, insidious, or abnormal about their existence among us.

Like imagine this for a second: imagine if, for whatever reason, most of mass media completely ignored the existence of... fuck, I dunno, trees. Lets say that for whatever idiotic reason, we lived in an alternate reality where trees were somehow seen as "socially taboo" to depict or acknowledge within mass mainstream media.

And if on rare occasions a given work was to include a depiction of tress within mass media, that work cannot dare to be targeted at kids, it must come with a slew of warning labels ("WARNING: This Film Contains Graphic Depictions of Tree and Other Upsetting Plant-Life: Not Suitable for Anyone Under 18+, Viewer Discretion is Strongly Advised"), and furthermore the people depicting trees will often know so little about trees (in no small part because we've spent so much time constantly avoiding discussing, acknowledging, or talking about them, up to/including/and beyond in our art and media) that oftentimes they can't even be bothered to get the basic depiction of them accurately and will often depict them as far more odd and weird-seeming than they really are.

And any attempt that a given work makes to depict the world as being in fact chock full of trees (as it actually indeed is in reality all around us), that depicts them quite accurately and in detail as they really are, and that furthermore dares to aim such a work at the mass public (kids included), then it stands to face considerable backlash and outrage, up to and including the claim that any such work that dares to show that trees are commonplace and "normal" are works that are being innately "divisive", "political" and having some insidious "pro-tree agenda".

Now replace the word "tree" throughout all of the past few paragraphs there with "LGBTQ people" (and for that matter, black, Latino, Indian, Arabic, or otherwise decidedly brown/dark skinned people), and please explain to me in all the detail and nuance that you care to how exactly the latter is ANY less ridiculous, moronic, or asinine than the former within those paragraphs?

That's really what this whole fucking absurd, dumbfuck, spectacularly deranged, and utterly batshit "debate" regarding "LGBTQ people forcing Identity Politics into mass media to promote an AgendaTM that no one can *ever* be bothered to actually outline or clearly define on even a basic-ass level" ultimately boils itself down to. They're literally telling you in no uncertain terms exactly what it is that they want via fair media representation, and every time this "Pushing a Political Agenda" bullshit comes up, it reads to rational, sane people as "Yes yes, but what are you REALLY trying to do here? :!: :!: "

There's literally nothing the least bit "hidden" or "insidious" or "agenda-ish" about what it is they're ultimately trying to accomplish here. Really just listen to them, really listen to what it is they're telling you about what they're going through and what it is they want, and take what it is they're telling you at face fucking value without devolving into unhinged conspiratorial nonsense. They have literally NOTHING to "get one over" on anyone else with this stuff.

supersaiyanZero wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:44 pm
I've never diminished your personal existence. There is not one iota of evidence to support that. This is a bullshit, manipulative way to play a victim of some sort of injustice and therefore invalidate anything I have or will say.
First of all: you've literally talked directly past what it was that Kendamu was trying to explain to you in very clear and direct terms, and you've warped and jiu jitsu-ed it in your mind into it somehow being a "rhetorical tactic" on her end to turn your words back on you and “paint herself as the victim”, when in reality she was simply just very clearly explaining to you why the whole "Identity Politics" talking point - again specifically within contexts like this conversation right here regarding fair representation of minorities like LGBTQ people in media - is typically used as a means of "shutting down" any movement or progress toward getting these people fairly and widely represented in media the same as anyone else.

Remember my "tree" analogy from before? Think for a moment about what it is that you're telling an LGBTQ person almost any and every single time they say "Hey, we think that media, even kids' media, should maybe more broadly represent us, seeing as how we kind of exist here on this planet and all" and the response they get is almost unanimously “IDENTITY POLITICS BAD!! YOU'RE JUST TRYING TO PUSH AN AGENDA ON US!!!

Think outside of just yourself and your own perspective here for at least two fucking seconds. Think for a moment about the overall net effect of it on a MUCH broader basis when so many other cis/hetero people throughout aaaaaaaaaaaall these various fan communities (including yourself on top of the pile) keep routinely responding to ANY FAINT HINT of minority representation in media in such a way.

I mean, for decades now, many of us didn't have almost any problems at all whatsoever with black or brown people being depicted regularly and nonchalantly in mass, mainstream kids' media: so why should LGBTQ people be any different?

Anytime you respond to this kind of question with "That's identity politics and you're pushing an agenda!" you are, in point of fact and *by default*, calling these people's VERY IDENTITY AND EXISTENCE out as being innately and inherently "political" and "agenda-driven" in nature.

And yeah, they have an agenda: to be seen and recognized and depicted in mass media as regular-ass fucking everyday people without any bullshit "taboos" placed on them for no good goddamn reason.

Every single time that you, or most anyone else in these kinds of discussions, keeps shutting down ANY remote nudge toward broader representation of LGBTQ (and other minority groups) across mass media by decrying it as “Agenda-driven Identity Politics”, you are, as a matter of natural course and regardless of your genuine intentions, arguing against their "normalization" and "integration" within the wider world through the conduit of mass media.

You are pushing against social progress on that front. By saying that you "Don't want politics to invade your cherished childhood media" (as you are here) any time that the issue of LGBTQ (and whatever other minority group) being fairly represented in a work of media comes up, you are A) calling the mere acknowledgement of these people's existence across broader media to be both "political" and thus "taboo" in some way, and B) you are yourself making a goddamn political statement whether you realize it or intend to or not!

Then there's also THIS terrible layer to that earlier quote (that I don't doubt for a moment you genuinely didn't think deeper on the ramifications of before regurgitating it out into the digital ether here):

supersaiyanZero wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:44 pm
This is a bullshit, manipulative way to play a victim of some sort of injustice and therefore invalidate anything I have or will say.
My dude... scroll back up a bit and take another gander at some of those stats, and take another listen to most of the experiences that transgender people are telling us all about what they're being put through as a community every motherfucking day.

Do you seriously think - in the petty, insulated, myopic thread of logic that you're going by here – that most trans folk have ANY remote interest or desire in “making themselves into a victim” needlessly and frivolously over such minor petty grievances?

Look over all of those studies I linked to before (and *plenty* more besides just those), listen to all the stories and experiences that they're relating to us constantly for a fucking moment and put yourself squarely in their shoes for just a minute:

If you're very identity as a human being on this planet is such that it makes constant enemies out of not just close family and friends and lovers, but also out of a sizable portion of random-ass total strangers out in the world – a good potion of whom are deranged and unhinged enough to commit actual physical and lethal violence upon them JUST FOR EXISTNING – to the point where their day to day, minute by minute existence is a perpetual struggle to maintain their sanity, inner-strength, and emotional/psychological stability...

...would you, in that context, feel even the most remote fucking desire to want to jump through a bunch of absurd, ludicrously stupid rhetorical hoops and word-games in your day to day interactions with others solely in order to pointlessly and needlessly make yourself into a VICTIM?!

Do you honestly believe that most LGBTQ people (including ones who engage in “nerd media” discourse online) are that petty and childish in their worldview? Is your own day to day existence so utterly shallow, so blissfully worry and problem-free that you can seriously think to yourself “Yeah, if I were trans, *that's* certainly how I'd be spending my time!”

Did you seriously think through any of this excruciatingly vapid nonsense you've spouted here for even so much as a nanosecond, or was whatever dipshit Redditor or Youtube neckbeard talking head you originally heard this kind of “Radical Far Left Identity Politics is ruining our cherished nerd media!” crap from online initially just THAT magnetically compelling and charismatic that you thought “Yeah! They're just trying to play the victims! That's GOTTA BE IT!” and ran with it from there?

I'm genuinely sorry to make this so acid-edged: I may not know you personally, but I damn well know the kind of mentality that you are operating from and the talking points that you are espousing. And they are simply, in and of themselves, malignantly stupid and gross down to their very baseline framework. In no small part because they drastically misdiagnose the level of stakes that are at play here in terms of what the LGBTQ community (both as a broader whole, and in a great many cases down to a ton of individual voices within it) both has been facing for countless decades now, and are still continuing to face right now today.

Getting back around to the main point, and this is crucially important here: while the term Identity Politics is indeed very old and has gone through a whole *ton* of different contextual meanings throughout the decades over time, within the current political climate we've been in for much of the last maybe seven or so now: "Identity Politics" within conversations dealing with minority representation and the like (both in media and more broadly in general) - indeed when used as the specific talking point you're using it as right now – it has absolutely been firmly established as a Right Wing Reactionary Dog Whistle talking point in recent years. Its absolutely at this present stage within the same wheelhouse (again at this political moment in time and within contexts like this one) as "taking the Red Pill", "Globalism", "Cultural Marxist", etc.

You yourself may be (and clearly are) completely unaware of this fact and of this term's widespread (and incredibly unsubtle and not-at-all obscured) political use within recent years all throughout online discourse (generally by far right reactionaries and their assorted ilk): but I'm suddenly reminded of some catchphrase or other about "facts not caring about your feelings" or some such... :idea: :idea:

There's a whole fucking encyclopedically dense-ass nomenclature that the online reactionary movement (the alt right, the Red Pills, MRAs, etc) in the last decade or so have developed for themselves. The whole "The Radical Left are trying to push their shady Agenda with Identity Politics" meme (that seems to generally mainly ever come up any time that a brown skinned or LGBTQ person or a woman character in some recent piece of media is ever given ANY kind of prominent role that doesn't lean on tired, stock stereotypes) is a *completely* nonsensical talking point that was in large part wholly invented by this movement.

It is, in every sense of the term, a conspiracy theory, and a blatantly idiotic and ahistorical one at that. It is absolutely, factually, and unmistakably used as a dog whistle for "See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" when it comes to giving any sort of serious, critical attention to issues or topics pertaining to social treatment of minorities or social equity. Particularly in discussions about mainstream media depictions/visibility/representation, but also even in other various contexts as well.

supersaiyanZero wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:44 pm
You may, in your infinite ignorance, have branded the term identity politics as an assault on your existence. You might want to educate yourself in that regard.
I don't want to keep taking this to the realm of the personal (and I'll be steering this back to the broader issue shortly), but I simply could not let this one go.

You just cited Kendamu (who's a pretty sharp lady I might add) as a font of "infinite ignorance" while yourself are right here and now demonstrating not just boundless fucking ignorance throughout this whole diatribe regarding trans people, but also not even understanding WHY it is that the term "Identity Politics" - again, when used as a talking point within this specific context - is itself a (once again, very widely recognized now) right wing dog whistle talking point that is fundamentally intended to undermine the very existence and agency of these various minority groups (and their various issues) seeking merely fair/equal representation across media.

Evergreen image right here:

Image

Also, and not to be petty and make this about me and my dumb bullshit, but - since this once again just came up earlier this month when I last posted here - to people here (MetaMoss, BigBoy, PhoenixEX, et al) who think that my posts talking about dumb nonsense like anime and Dragon Ball fandom history are somehow purposefully condescending or belittling or whatnot to the other people within those various threads:
supersaiyanZero wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:44 pm
You may, in your infinite ignorance, have branded the term identity politics as an assault on your existence. You might want to educate yourself in that regard.
Take note of that guys. Context: a Cis/Hetero dude - who's maybe only a notch or two removed from "We totally solved racism/bigotry guys!" in his rhetoric and stated worldviews - calling a trans woman "infinitely ignorant" because HE somehow knows better than HER how to spot an over-abused bigoted dog whistle term (while not actually in any way remotely knowing the broader and more recent context behind the term). And topping it all off by telling her "you might want to educate yourself". :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

That guys, is what a condescending/snotty/belittling post actually looks like (not to mention a textbook defining example of what "mansplaining" actually looks like in action out in the wild).

I mean come on man: do you honestly, sincerely not see or realize how this entire portion of your post reads to almost *anyone/everyone* else as:

"No no, please trans ladies, allow ME, random cis-hetero chucklefuck on a Dragon Ball forum spouting /pol/-approved talking points about 'Forced Diversity' and 'Identity Politics (that may as well come complete with Jordan Peterson's Kermit voice), to educate and school you wild-eyed hysterics on what 'oppression', 'bigotry', and 'dog whistle' terms ACTUALLY are!"

It is in NO way unfair to point out that to a large swath of both LGBTQ people and people who in general have a fairly firm grasp on the realities they face, that this whole segment of your post comes across at best as a comically, over the top stereotypical example of a “cluelessly naive cis/white male who thinks that we've basically already along ago defeated the worst of prejudice and bigotry”, and at worst as the written-language personification of a fedora being tipped.

supersaiyanZero wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:44 pm
Me and many others are tired of certain groups forming their own off-brand political brand based on whatever identity they choose to be that day, and (speaking broadly here) claiming that because the status quo is oppressing them they have a right to reshape the world in their image no questions asked. And anybody who doesn't agree is a homophobic alt right nazi slave owner bigot.
Oh god, where do I even begin to break this one down. Lets start with:

supersaiyanZero wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:44 pm
Me and many others are
"Many others" also including (but are in no way limited to), wait for it... alt-right online hate/Nazi groups. Of the kind who went and made a previously totally benign & established term/concept like "Identity Politics" into a fucking dog whistle talking point (in more recent years at least) in the first place.

And no, obviously not everyone who buys into this nonsense (including, quite obviously, you yourself) are alt-right online Neo-Nazis. *Obviously* not. The way that far right wing dog whistle terms & talking points have historically always proliferated has been their being originated and developed among either extremist hate groups or far right political think tank organizations, before being disseminated out into the broader media wilds and "normalized" via being parroted mindlessly by cluelessly oblivious folks until they basically turn into stubbornly-clung-to thought-viruses that get people arguing in circles among themselves endlessly (rather than realizing that the VAST majority of us have FAR more in the way of common goals and interests, and actually taking active action to achieve them and get anywhere solving shit).

Examples of more “traditional” (i.e. old school, pre-alt right and Red Pill/GamerGate-era) dog whistle terms include, but are in no way limited to:

- States Rights - i.e. "Give us the ability to have our Southern Conservative Stronghold states worm their way out of Federal Anti-Discrimination and Civil Rights Laws (including once-upon a time, anti-slavery laws), as well as Roe v Wade/Abortion-related legislation, and any other Federal Court rulings that we think happen to give too much equitable & fair treatment under the law to minority groups that we personally don't like or approve of."

- Freedom of Religion – i.e. “Give us a go-to loophole of an out to discriminate against and demean LGBTQ people (and at one time formerly, black people & interracial marriage) as we please, using religion as the convenient fig-leaf of choice.”

- Family Values – i.e. “Fuck only who we want you to fuck, and only fuck them in the exact specific manner that we want you to fuck them.”

- Globalists - “The Jews secretly control the world!”

- Welfare Queens - “Black and brown people are inherently lazy and worthless, so cut off any and all Federal funding to anti-poverty programs that might make poor black & brown people even marginally less poor. And if it happens to also do similar such harm to poor white people as well, then so be it: cut off your own nose to spite your face!”

- Handouts – “Fuck poor people in general. Homeless? Your own fault! Get a job!”

- Immigration Reform - “Purge the country of any and all brown people, particularly Latinos and Muslims (and possibly South Africans).”

- Thug Culture - “Black men (particularly the younger ones) are innately savage, violent, and predatory, and are just waiting and itching to kill off all of us Good, Hard Working White Men before raping our White Wives and our pure, virginal White Daughters.”

- Anti-White/White Genocide - “Black & brown people are gonna out-fuck White people out of existence! Whites are under attack and are an endangered species!” This one's barely even a dog whistle.

And so on and so forth.

I can only hope that you have enough baseline historical understanding and political awareness to recognize at least some of those above terms for exactly what they are (and have long been outted/discredited as being in very open and public fashion).

Because yes, once again I am 1000% asserting as stone cold fucking fact that “Identity Politics” (once again, within *this* specific context within just a few years short of maybe the past decade or so now) has in recent years joined the very same ranks as those above outlined more old-school classical right wing dog whistle terms within the more modern day “alt right”-hewing political lexicon.

This is not at all obscure trivia that I'm citing here: the framework that you're operating from here is one of immense ignorance to not only basic day to day, lived-in realities of most of the LGBTQ community, but also to recent trends in political discourse as well as the broader, more critically important discussion surrounding these terms outside of internet nerd community-related nonsense.

That you seem to be genuinely unaware of this only serves to highlight and make all the more egregious the condescending and intelligence-insulting language you've against both Kendamu and Julie within this thread.

supersaiyanZero wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:44 pm
Me and many others are tired of certain groups forming their own off-brand political brand based on whatever identity they choose to be that day, and (speaking broadly here) claiming that because the status quo is oppressing them they have a right to reshape the world in their image no questions asked.
Please, PLEASE don't tell me that you're trying to genuinely and sincerely claim that non-binary gender identities for most people are somehow some “new” thing that a bunch of people online suddenly started making up out of fucking wholecloth on a whim just to draw attention to themselves or “be different” or “play the victim” or whatnot.

You are not busting out that fucking chestnut – that much of this is all just a bunch of dumb, silly kids trying on and discarding new gender identities like they're different outfits, as opposed to making critically important decisions that most of them know damn well will have the gravest and most seismic of impact on the rest of their lives - sincerely and unironically, are you?

My dude... take another goddamn look at the transgender violence stats I linked to up top. Do you genuinely, and honestly think that any sane, reasonably intelligent, and lucid fucking person would willingly and publicly take on a non-binary gender identity – and with it, have to face the incalculable number of dangers, serious risks to their lives & physical safety, and not to mention the day to day public shame and bullying - PURELY on a series of fickle, frivolous whims?

Do you actually think there's more than maybe (maybe) the smallest sliver of the overall transgender/broader LGBTQ community who treat this as anything the least bit less than one of the biggest risks to their lives and safety that they'll have to deal with for likely the rest of their goddamn lives, to say nothing of the enormous ripples it'll cause among their *entire* family and social circle?

Dude... if I'm not misreading you here (and if I'm indeed even slightly misreading you here, then up front I extend immense apologies for saying this), then what this shows me is that you haven't put even the barest minimum amount of serious, critical thought into any of this, into any of the bullshit that you're spewing (about an incredibly important topic that literally impacts the lives of literally *millions* of individuals in just North America alone) and that you have an IMPOSSIBLY naive, myopic, and cluelessly sheltered-ass motherfucking outlook and view of the real world.

Some legitimate and actual credit where due is on the horizon though!


(Continued in Part 2)
Last edited by Kunzait_83 on Fri Nov 22, 2019 6:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Kunzait's Wuxia Thread
Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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Re: Toei should promoto Piccolo more as a LGBTQQIP2SAA character

Post by Kunzait_83 » Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:01 am

Part 2

supersaiyanZero wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:44 pm
This is not a dismissal of socioeconimic problems that are specifically affecting minorities., which is a very real and systematic issue and the coalition of groups dedicated to this needs to be strengthened.

Yes, there are people that are trying to "legislate you out of existence" for lack of a better term. Yes, this is a problem
So finally we get to a point of genuine agreement! Huzzah!

This particular part of your post is exactly 1000% spot on and accurate.

Yes, absolutely. Terrible socioeconomic conditions *do* disproportionately impact minorities to a much greater extent than non-minorities (and that's most definitely not to say obviously that non-minorities still aren't horrendously impacted, because they most certainly are, and I myself have a whole childhood and adolescence of firsthand experience on that particular score: the impact just tends to be exponentially worse on certain other more vulnerable groups). Republican lawmakers and other right wing special interest groups HAVE been trying for *decades* now to “legislate LGBTQ people out of existence” (to say nothing of various immigrant groups). And more centrist legislators have largely been completely impotent and ill-equipped to properly deal with and combat them in the process.

This isn't just merely “a problem” however... its one of the crucial and critically central issues of our time facing a vast, vast chunk of disadvantaged people today.

Regardless, I don't want to in any way downplay this here: all of this part of your post right here makes up about the most pinpoint accurate and correct statements you've made within an otherwise dense swamp of unself-aware naivete and uncritically parroted reactionary talking points. And for all the shit I have (and will soon continue to) give the rest of the content of your post, I really want to highlight here how much you've shown that you're able to at least somewhat connect to shit that actually matters and is of real substance and importance.

And honestly, this above particular quote just makes all the other parts of this post all that much incredibly more frustrating:

Because you're clearly not an innately or intrinsically stupid person. For all the shit I've given you up top (because really, so much of that stuff you said was SO stupid and SO poorly thought through that it most certainly warranted both the highlighting and the ridicule) I honestly, based on bits like this, don't think that I'm talking to an utterly brainless and hopeless moron or to an innately terrible and shitty person.

You very, very much have the capacity for not just critical thinking, but for compassion and empathy and understanding real material concerns. You're PARTWAY there, and that honestly makes so much of the rest of this bullshit so, so much more heartbreakingly godawful and depressing to read.

I'm being as heartfelt and sincere as can be here when I say that, for all the shit I've been giving you (and will continue to give you momentarily, when we return to the garbage heap that is the rest of this post) that I wouldn't even be wasting my time writing all this in the first fucking place if I didn't think there was *some* genuinely rational and empathetic part of you that could maybe take a moment and listen and understand the full depths and the gravity of just how fucking hurtful, insulting, belittling, and degrading a lot of what you're saying here actually is in reality, despite you being in NO WAY cognizant of it.

That you can come to this point of genuine insight into real issues and concerns that actually matter and have real world, tangible impact on vulnerable people (many of whose lives and material well-being literally hang in the balance over these issues), and yet *still* be warped and deluded into uncritically embracing and regurgitating such blatantly, on-their-face stupid, stupid, stupid fucking NOSENSE talking points that have NO fucking basis in reality or anything the LEAST bit important or material...

...understand: *this* is why I'm getting so over-the-top in your face here over all of this. I'm not just trying to start some nonsense drama over nothing with you, some random-ass stranger online (god knows I have FAR better and more productive shit I could be doing with my time right now) or to “pwn your ass!” and score some kind of cheap, meaningless internet debating points, or whatever the fuck.

Its because these kinds of issues – issues that impact and have tangible consequences on the health, safety, happiness, and general well-being of people who may not look or act or dress like you and me, but who are nonetheless flesh-and-blood human beings at the end of the day that are JUST the same as us in all the myriad of ways that count the most – are NOT a fucking joke. Certainly not to these people who have so much more at stake and riding on this stuff than you or I do.

Its because I'm trying to – in my own acidic, blunt-ass, uncompromising fucking way – trying to beg and plead with you to BE A BETTER, SMARTER PERSON THAN THIS. Because you're clearly fucking capable of it!

And I know, I know... this all started originally over a stupid, stupid nonsense, meaningless troll thread on a stupid, nonsense, meaningless forum about a stupid, nonsense, meaningless children's cartoon. Put ALL of that aside here for just a moment.

Forget fucking Dragon Ball here for a second. Forget Piccolo and Akira Toriyama, and all this other nonsense, meaningless bullshit for a moment. The core crux of this entire issue that we're getting eyeball deep into the weeds here now over is that of media representation of a minority group that is both under-represented in the wider mainstream media, and at the same time in numerous other aspects of life are being gravely oppressed in incredibly tangible, life-or-death important ways.

But its just some dumbass cartoons and movies, right? So why does this matter so much and why is it so important? Why does it evoke such passion in the voices and manner of SO many people who are witty, creative, warm, open-hearted, etc?

Because, whether you realize it or not, art has a genuinely and profound impact on people. This ties directly into and indeed forms the whole crux about why I go on so much the way I do on here so often about why art matters so much more than people realize, and why its so critically important for a growing, developing young mind to not just solely or primarily engage with simplistic media.

People engage with art and engage with stories and narratives on a deeply personal level. They get to know and get attached to fictional characters oftentimes as if they were real people. Obviously there are a more than fair number of people who take this way too far, but set them aside for a moment... the root of so much of bigotry & intolerance for those who are different than they are stems from three key things: ignorance, lack of exposure, and fear of the unknown and unfamiliar.

When you take minority groups who are often demonized and mistreated in society out of largely ignorance and fear, and you present them to the world - in an accurate, humanizing, and compassionate fashion that reflects the broader, nuanced reality of who they really are and why they are fundamentally not all that different from the rest of us in all the most important ways that matter the most – THAT HAS A REAL AND PROFOUND FUCKING IMPACT.

People, who otherwise have generally little contact in their real personal lives with various minority groups (whom they may or may not fear and demonize from afar based on stereotypes and political propaganda) get to know LGBTQ characters, black and brown characters, non-binary characters in a work of fiction - the more well-crafted and fleshed out, the better obviously- and suddenly they get to realize “Hey... maybe these people aren't so scary and so different after all!”

This happens a lot in adult-aimed media and has such a profound and positive impact on adult audiences... now imagine for a second the exponentially greater impact it has on children, who aren't as entrenched in their biases and prejudices, and are still developing and forming their outlook of the world.

And remember: I'm supposed to be the “95% of most children's media fucking sucks, stop over-focusing and over-obsessing so much on it as adults you fucking man-babies” guy here!

Putting aside the silliness, dumbness, and general frivolity of Dragon Ball, or Star Wars, or whatever the fuck silly & ridiculous children's nerd franchise of choice... what matters ultimately here is exposure and visibility to a broader mass of people who *aren't* exposed (at all or very much) to people that are different than them in some way, and are thus prone to believing and buying into dumbass stereotypes and propagandistic, hateful talking points about them.

This fucking matters. This helps *tremendously* in the long run. This is (at least partly) how stereotypes and misinformation and incorrect assumptions about people get broken the fuck down and moved past as a society.

I want to take a moment here right now to contrast two different and wildly clashing statements here for you SuperSaiyanZero (Note: I feel like such a stupid fucking jackass even typing that absurd-ass handle in this midst of this kind of real discussion) that gets right to the heart of why this particular post just royally and viscerally made something in my brain snap:
supersaiyanZero wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:44 pm
This is not a dismissal of socioeconimic problems that are specifically affecting minorities., which is a very real and systematic issue and the coalition of groups dedicated to this needs to be strengthened.


Which is about something that you clearly recognize that's REAL, something that gets right to the HEART of what is actually hurting people who are more vulnerable and what is actually wrecking and ruining people's lives.

Versus:
supersaiyanZero wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:44 pm
Me and many others are tired of certain groups forming their own off-brand political brand based on whatever identity they choose to be that day, and (speaking broadly here) claiming that because the status quo is oppressing them they have a right to reshape the world in their image no questions asked.
Which I have spent countless paragraphs in this one post ripping the fuck to shreds precisely why this is such a colossally ignorant, idiotic, nasty, revolting, insulting, and grotesque piece of toxic sewage to spew regarding a group of people in society who are right now (and for the past several generations now) going through some existential shit the likes of which neither you nor I can scarcely begin to comprehend.

In one quote, you demonstrate empathy, compassion, critical thinking and recognizing of genuine, reality-rooted facts that have tangible consequences to the lives and well-being of fellow human beings who aren't you.

And in the other quote, you uncritically spout and parrot absolutely moronic and stale stereotypes and misassumptions about the current political & social landscape that only have the cultural currency that they currently enjoy due to not just the concerted effort of bad-faith actors online (who have an actual insidious agenda) that are spreading them, but also because of gullible kids online just nodding along with it like fucking bobbleheads without thinking it through even mildly deeper.

This whole “any minority trying to use my previous nerd media to discuss real issues affecting them is using Identity Politics, and therefore are almost or roughly equivalent to the worst kinds of evil out there!” is a framing which, apart from being breathtakingly stupid in and of itself, its entire reason for existing in the first fucking place is to more or less shut down any and all empathy and compassion towards the problems and experiences of people who are seriously fucking *hurting* right now and absolutely need all of the humane compassion, understanding, and solidarity from the rest of us that they can get.

supersaiyanZero wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:44 pm
- there is a lot of ignorance on both sides.
And now we of course get to the “both side-ism” false equivalencies.

Yes, *clearly* in a conflict that is between:

A) Various minority groups (and their advocates) who are being oppressed both legislatively AND socially and are out there in the streets every single goddamn day fighting their guts out for their right to exist as who they are out in the open and without shame.

Versus:

B) Corrupt politicians who are pushing corrosive legislation against these various minority groups with the financial backing of various far right wing extremist think tanks with a variety of ties to outright white supremacist and Neo Nazi organizations and ideologies, further bolstered online by a slew of gullible, bitter, alienated, naive kids on various chan and gaming/anime forums who have been expressly targeted by these very same white supremacist interest groups throughout much of the past six/seven or so years now for indoctrination and disinformation campaigns.

On one side, historically and presently marginalized minority groups who've been waging a painful, uphill struggle of attrition for equal rights and protections under the law as well as societal acceptance of their basic humanity and decency... and on the other side, wealthy, bought-off politicians, white extremist hate groups, and emotionally immature, purposefully mislead, and historically illiterate mobs of embittered, socially isolated gamer/Otaku dorks, shut-ins, and Hikikomori-types dutifully regurgitating meme-ified and chan-ified repackagings of the aforementioned hate groups' propaganda on the internet day in and day out for other gullible, sheltered kids to latch onto and parrot.

Oh, but didn't you hear? Some blue-haired liberal arts college person said something dumb on Youtube once! Oh, and there's an LGBTQ content creator who wants to see MORE representation in children's cartoon shows! Including ones that I watch! So you see... clearly both sides are equivalent and comparable!

Image

But seriously: of course plenty of left-leaning people out there also say some mighty stupid and cringeworthy shit. Absolutely no one (myself included) is denying that. But the dumbness on that end of the spectrum *isn't* actively endangering people's lives or spreading toxic bigotry and hate on a mass scale (including among scores of young kids online).

Some well-meaning, but stupidly overzealous liberal arts college kid saying something ridiculous and moronic on tumblr is IN NO WAY analogous or equivalent to the grotesque anti-LGBTQ/black/latino/Muslim/etc. sewage that pours from the maw of the present-day internet nerd culture. Absolutely NO cis-white dude is in ANY danger of being beset on all sides by mobs of angry, weapon-wielding black transgender women and beaten to near-death in the streets for using the wrong pronoun or some shit.

On the overall broader, cumulative, and overarching grand scheme of things, this isn't even CLOSE to a fucking “Yeah, but BOTH SIDES...!” kind of situation we're dealing with here, and continuing to paint it as such is both a grotesque distortion of reality, a belligerently stupid and ahistorical reading of both the past and present political zeitgeists, as well as giving all the built-in advantage to the blatantly dishonest actors in all this.

For a fairly analogous illustration of what I mean here, imagine if there are two people engaged in a physical altercation out in the streets. One person (Person A) is a severe asthmatic and has had their inhaler stolen from them by the other person (Person B). As the two people are fighting over the inhaler, Person A is suffering a massive asthmatic attack and can no longer breathe properly. As such, the stakes of the conflict are that if Person A doesn't recover their inhaler from Person B in quick enough time, then Person A will eventually suffer respiratory failure and need to either be whisked quickly to an emergency room or else flat out die.

Along comes a police officer who sees the two people brawling with one another over the inhaler. The officer steps over, breaks up the physical fight, and asks the two people "What's all this about?" Both individuals relay their sides of the story: Person A tells the officer that they're asthmatic and that Person B stole their inhaler and they need it back right now this second or else they're going to be unable to breathe properly and will surely die. Person B claims this is a lie and that Person A is only faking that they're asthmatic and the inhaler actually belongs to Person B's younger brother who is the REAL asthmatic (in reality, Person B very well likely doesn't even have a brother at all, much less an asthmatic one).

Even as Person A is clearly having problems breathing and is clearly in great pain and physical distress, Person B still continues to insist to the officer that Person A is "just faking it to gain attention and sympathy". Obviously, Person A is speaking & acting in good faith, while Person B is speaking & acting in bad faith.

(And no, this little analogy is in many respects really not that terribly far off from what's been going on in both politics and across broader society today, even within online geek communities and discussions like this one, for much of the past several years now: take a look over in the Vic thread at some of the horrifying, blood-curdlingly moronic and asinine rationalizations for how we as a society ought to view and handle sexual assault/rape cases in a way that won't disturb or make uncomfortable the people who have the LEAST stakes in the matter for just a relatively very mild dose of it here in this community).

Now if the police officer in our little analogy looks at this situation between these two persons over the inhaler and concludes "Well as an officer of the law, I'm a totally neutral party. I won't take either of your sides in this, and instead I'll just escort the two of you down to the police station and you can both tell your stories there."... between Person A and Person B, which of the two does the police officer's supposed "both sides neutrality" ACTUALLY benefit more in the end and whom does it actively HARM?

Because given the circumstances and the - wait for it - the CONTEXT of the situation at hand, being innately neutral and equivocating “both sides” is in NO WAY of equitable or proportionate treatment to the material needs, goals, and outcomes of both parties.

Taking the "non-political" (or the "centrist" position) is in no way inherently always the wise, correct, intelligent, or even the innately fairest move. Context always matters, and one of the most important aspects of ANY situational context is "what are the stakes and the ultimate end goals of the parties involved?"

When one side is clearly acting in bad faith and the other isn't, when one side's stakes are that of their very right to exist in the world and be treated with the barest modicum of decency by the broader populace, and the other side's stakes are maintaining their power & privilege over that of the other party while keeping them looked upon with fear and suspicion by the broader majority... THEN BEING NEUTRAL OR CENTRIST AND DRAWING FALSE EQUIVALENCIES BETWEEN THE TWO INHERENTLY AND INNATELY TAKES THE SIDE OF AND FAVORS THAT OF THE BAD FAITH ACTOR OVER THE GOOD FAITH ONE. Even if you don't actually purposefully *intend* for that to be the case, that's what the ultimate end result will end up being.

supersaiyanZero wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:44 pm
I wish we could deal with said problem much more directly that we do as a society, but unfortunately religion still has a stranglehold on the minds of people in the 21st century and religious zealots still run rampant in this country.
While religious zealotry certainly has been and remains a key problem in all this, it's far from the *only* culprit of all the societal horrors we've been enduring both in the past and present. Stubborn myopia and a refusal to think outside of one's own perspective and outside of one's own life experiences, and refusing to understand the broader gravity and ramifications of problems that aren't necessarily directly connected or tied to oneself or one's own personal life experiences - along with irrational, paranoid fear of “the other” and the unknown/unfamiliar – all remains a hugely central component in all this.

And while you may not be someone with any strong religiously motivated intolerance, that in no way precludes you from being someone who is nonetheless speaking *WAY* outside of your depth about a gravely serious set of problems for a vast subsection of people: problems and people of which you have clearly demonstrated here throughout this thread that you haven't thought of or regarded with any shred of serious depth or outlook beyond your own incredibly narrow and limited point of view on this particular matter.

supersaiyanZero wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:44 pm
You need to understand though, that I view these narrow minded divisive religious zealots the same way as I view a few narrow minded divisive LBGTQ zealots. They are two sides of the same coin as far as I'm concerned.
Again with the false equivocating between actual anti-LGBTQ bigotry that has serious, tangible life or death stakes for that community, and whatever silly, inconsequential nonsense you might've read in a stray twitter thread or tumblr post from some teenage or early 20-something kid (or just as likely, an inoffensive, sensible statement on the matter that you very well might've misinterpreted and got over-reactionary and defensive about). See above for my thoughts on the matter, and how unbelievably dense this crap is and how its helpful only to the more dangerous and dishonest actors out there.

And as a very important caveat, all of that certainly isn't to say that all LGBTQ people are innately, inherently, and unequivocally right and correct about everything they ever say - even with regards to their own specific issues - nor that cis/straight people can't openly disagree with them. LGBTQ people are nothing more or less than just regular-ass people, same as anyone else, at the end of the day: fallible to the same errors, mistakes, and imperfections as anyone else. But if you're going to openly engage in a debate with them about issues that pertain expressly to their own lived-in experiences with open hostility and bigotry to their existence, you should *at a bare minimum* come correct with at the very least a BASIC grasp of the history and gravity of the problems they're facing and what's at stake for which parties.

Coming at a couple of trans women, who are largely just saying some incredibly benign and basic truisms about recent dog whistle terms used to silence them as well as LGBTQ representation in media (on a dumb topic regarding a dumb children's martial arts anime no less) with nonsense “You're just as dishonest, dangerous, and scummy as the anti-LGBTQ bigots you're fighting against.” false equivocating and a dire misunderstanding of how a term like “identity politics” has been openly and blatantly weaponized against them and used as a tool to shut them up and shut them down anytime they ever so much as utter a peep about any topic that pertains to them...

… within THAT kind of context (as we have here), you only end up painting yourself as a painfully stupid, clueless idiot (who is woefully under/midinformed about a number of current, pressing developments in present political discourse), and a callous, condescending prick to boot.

supersaiyanZero wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:44 pm
For you to claim that I assaulted your existence is so damn shameless, so fucking low I can't even think to imagine what kind of person you are.
For the record: I've known Kendamu personally – and quite well - for a very good number of years now. She and I have spoken and gotten to know one another quite extensively off the forums for a very long time now.

She is without the slightest question one of the smartest, sharpest, most deeply caring, warmhearted, thoughtful, and compassionate people I've ever had the privilege of meeting on this entire fucking community in all the past 15+ years of my having been a part of it. To say nothing of unbelievably fearless and possessing more raw guts and resilience in the face of existential crisis the likes of which a VAST chunk of this community couldn't even scarcely begin to comprehend the gravity of.

She laid out for you more than clearly earlier in this thread exactly why your views and comments about trans-folk are deeply misguided and ignorant (to put it politely) - and I'm here now going the extra mile to lay it out in even vastly more gross detail, in no small part because as a cis guy, I don't have to deal with NEARLY the levels of bullshit about the subject literally *day in and day out* that she has to, and thus I can afford to expend the extra mental energy on the endeavor.

You on the other hand, have been nothing but an arrogant little spitball of unearned smugness to her every inch of the way, and have had the temerity to then question HER basic intelligence and integrity as a person while simultaneously showing a palpably unreal lack of self-awareness about your very own (blatantly and glaringly obvious) deficits in those areas throughout this thread, at least with regards to this particular topic.

And lest you think I have some ingrained bias for defending anything and everything ever said by a trans person simply because they're trans, please rest assured: when it comes to Julie here, there are a vast preponderance of topics upon which I vehemently disagree with her on (including some regarding general, non-queer-focussed, sexuality), and haven't been the least bit shy about confronting her on them in the past.

Regardless of all that however: when it comes to the subject of her trans identity and the myriad of insufferably moronic and hurtful bullshit she too has to deal with regarding it, Julie will without a doubt get nothing but my absolute express support on the matter when it comes to dealing with nonsense like the dumbass crap that's polluting this thread, including from the likes of you.

supersaiyanZero wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:43 am
It's only a dogwhistle for homophobia because you disagree with anything that doesn't align your world view.
Once more, for the cheap seats:

The term “identity politics” being a dogwhistle for “shutting up any minority voices who dares to speak one iota about an issue that pertains to their own problems as a minority in an online discussion – especially within nerd communities about representation in media” is, once again, a very well-known and well-worn phenomenon from the past several years of online discourse. To a great number of people out there at this point. Once again, that you personally are in the dark about this is * means that it isn't actually the case.

Yes, of course it has a MUCH older, longer, and vastly more nuanced history than this throughout countless decades of political discourse: that *doesn't* however preclude its current popular use – particularly in online discussions, more so within “nerd” spheres like this one - as a right-wing cudgel to basically tell minorities “Stop talking about your problems, you're making everyone/me uncomfortable!”

Let it set in for a moment that all of this nonsense invective you've been throwing at Kendamu and Julie throughout this thread (necessitating in my wasting my fucking time and mental energies – to say nothing of Kenadmu and Julie having to waste theirs - picking it all apart for the potential benefit of both yourself, and any other uninformed/ignorant young kids full of misdirected anger out there who might be lurking and reading all this shit) is due merely to the fact that you happen to be ignorant about a development in basic contemporary political terminology and discourse that has been very much decidedly old news to a LOT of people at this point. Which is topped off and only made all the more migraine-inducing by you accusing THEM of being the ones who are “ignorant”.

supersaiyanZero wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:43 am
When someone shouts from the top of the building "I don't feel represented, change this character to align with my projections" for some reason they sound much louder than those that are shouting "There is a staggering increase in black families without fathers". One deals with someones selfish desire to feel important, while the other deals with a very complicated, extremely systematic problem that requires a lot of attention and unpacking. But people like you take away from that.
Okay. This is such an unmitigated crock of shit, that I don't even know where to begin.

First of all for starters: fucking no one in this thread is calling for Piccolo to be changed into something he never was previously. Its already been hammered upon relentlessly (and it needn't have to be in the first place, since this is thuddingly basic Dragon Ball lore regarding Namekians: so if you didn't somehow know this, you automatically lose a ton of Dragon Ball nerd cred on top of being a fucking belligerent moron on LGBTQ issues) that Piccolo was ALREADY effectively an asexual identifying as masculine since literally goddamn 1990 at the very latest.

So lets right up front acknowledge that this ENTIRE fucking mind-deadening protracted argument in this thread has quite literally been over absolutely goddamned ****NOTHING.****

Just because Toriyama never uses those express terms in no way alters the fact that they exactly and directly describe precisely what the fuck Piccolo is in terms of his sexuality (or lack thereof) with literal dictionary definitional precision. The use of those terms in their proper and correct goddamn context is in NO WAY tantamount to “identity politics” in ANY context whatsoever.

Which is all the more so why several people throughout this thread have been - quite correctly – calling you out on using what is basically a dogwhistle term (whether you realize and understand it to be such or not) that's often used in recent years online to simply get minorities, including LGBTQ people, to just shut the fuck up and stop reminding people about any of their problems.

The heart of this right here is that you inherently associate terms like “asexual” and “gender identification” as “politically charged” terms, when they in no way fucking are, certainly not in this specific context where they're simply being used in their literal, dictionary definition.

And the very fact that people like yourself (non-LGBTQ people who have NO real or tangible stakes in this matter) DO see such terms as innately and inherently “politically loaded” regardless of the context of their use is EXACTLY part of the fucking broader problem with discrimination against LGBTQ people (because when you cordon off any and all use of terms that directly and expressly define who they are, then how the fuck else are they going to discuss anything regarding who they are in any detail?) and is EXACTLY WHY the term “identity politics” has been corrupted and mangled into the hideously bigoted dogwhistle that its become of late.

And if you cannot allow yourself to comprehend this incredibly basic and unavoidable fucking logistical reality, then I am simply at a total fucking loss of what else to tell you. The way that this rhetorical quagmire specifically puts a disproportionate and unfair degree of onus on minorities fighting for fair representation, that it inherently (and by design) restricts and constrains their ability to communicate effectively about their concerns and perspectives... it truly isn't THAT difficult of a logistical concept to wrap one's head around. If you are unable or unwilling to see and acknowledge at least THIS much of it, then we are fundamentally at an impasse here.

Regardless of your intentions or cognizance of the broader issues at play here, in parroting this crap uncritically you are helping, if in however small a way, to use the dogwhistle for exactly its intended purpose in this particular regard, no matter how unaware you may be of this. The unaware, ignorant parroting of a dogwhistle term by Joe/Jane Average individuals (who aren't politically savvy or focused in their day to day lives) is EXACTLY how & why dogwhistle terms proliferate and why they're used and are effective as propaganda.

By you operating within this framework – in this particular case, that any or most attempts made by an LGBTQ person to call for increased/better visibility and representation across mainstream media, so as to better help dispel ignorance and soothe discomfort regarding their very existence and thus help gradually tamp down on hostilities towards them, is inherently bad because its “too politically loaded” and that it serves as part of a shady, malicious, and ill-defined “agenda” on their end...

...you are both helping to normalize and spread (within “nerd community discourse” like this one) a bad-faith dogwhistle meant to stifle the ability for LGBTQ (and other minority groups) to communicate their concerns and perspectives, and are basically being made a total and complete fucking fool of by the bad-faith actors (which tends to be various right wing extremist hate groups who, again, have been specifically targeting gaming, comic book, and anime “geek” communities to help spread this crap) who initiated this in the process.

Just because you yourself are clueless and in the dark about this in NO WAY takes away from the overall net effect that this rhetorical paradigm has on people like Kendamu and Julie on a wider, broader basis. This is precisely how and why the impact and stakes of this stuff are simply NOT AT ALL the same or equal between LGBTQ people like them, and cis/straight folks like us.

Because there simply ISN'T some rash of anti-cis/white male hate mobs made up largely or entirely of trans women of color who are all just itching to pick up guns, knives, and baseball bats and go to town brutalizing the living fuck out of guys like you and I if we call them the wrong pronoun. There ARE however a fairly sizable portion of VERY real hate mobs of incredibly frightened and insecure cis/hetero guys who are looking for almost any fucking chance or excuse available to lash out violently against LGBTQ folks.

LGBTQ people simply have far infinitely more to gain or lose in trying to make the world less fearful and hostile towards them (whether its through activism, legislation, community outreach, and yes, even fucking art and mainstream media representation and visibility) than some fucking sheltered, insulated man-children on the internet who are mildly uncomfortable and perturbed that their favorite kids' movies & cartoons might remind them of reality a hairline more often now than they'd like.

And for fuck's sake dude:

supersaiyanZero wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:43 am
When someone shouts from the top of the building "I don't feel represented, change this character to align with my projections" for some reason they sound much louder than those that are shouting "There is a staggering increase in black families without fathers". One deals with someones selfish desire to feel important, while the other deals with a very complicated, extremely systematic problem that requires a lot of attention and unpacking. But people like you take away from that.
Reducing all this down to a “selfish desire to feel important”? Really? After all the insane amounts of physical and sexual violence that LGBTQ people endure (which is once again statistically MUCH more higher and severe in proportion to us cis/hetero folk, and its not even fucking close), after all the relentless, day to day hatred and viciousness that they often endure, the likes of which so many straight people are still woefully ill-equipped to fathom the depths of...

...boiling down their desire for fair and increased media representation and visibility, when that has had a proven and demonstrably positive impact in increasing wider societal comfort and acceptance of them... as being born out of a “selfish desire to feel important” is about as shamefully, breathakingly idiotic and thoughtless a statement regarding the broader status of the LGBTQ community as I've ever seen expressed on this particular forum.

Yeah, statements like this are exactly the reason why the tone of this whole post here is as harsh towards you as its been. For all the myriad of reasons elucidated at length here, this is *such* a callous, cold, and spectacularly short-sighted and narrow-minded reduction of what is, at its deeper core, a MUCH more serious and impactful problem than you're in any which way cognizant of.

Don't misunderstand: I'm incredibly glad that you at least seem to understand the existence (much less the gravity) of things like oppressive forms of legislation, systemic/economic inequality, and so forth. Those are all INCREDIBLY key, important issues to have a baseline grasp of, and I extend to you all the credit in the world for maintaining a healthy degree of insight and perspective on the realities of those matters.

But when it comes to the realities dealt with by the LGBTQ community on a day to day, moment by moment basis, as well as how mass public & media perspective directly impacts them and their very safety and survival among us (which is effectively the topic that this ridiculously stupid thread has morphed into) you very, very much decidedly don't know what the shit you're saying.

Its doubly more angering and frustrating when its coming from someone like yourself who *clearly* has the capacity for deeper, more intelligent, and more compassionate critical thought on such subjects, and is simply electing not to put it to use here and instead lazily and mindlessly regurgitate Gamergate-caliber “anti-SJW” bullshit nonsense for god only knows what reasons.

There was literally nothing said in this thread by Kendamu that “takes away from” the importance and severity of what LGBTQ people, or any other minority groups, have to deal with in terms of the broader gravity and scope of the societal ills they still face. For you to make that claim is beyond childish, infantile, falsely equivocating, and lacking in any *hint* of perspective in what's ultimately at stake for which groups of people in all of this “culture war” nonsense.

supersaiyanZero wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:43 am
I'll lay it for you what I believe in so you can call me whatever you want: I believe there are two genders (with the rare genetic aberration every now and then) Male and Female. Biologically speaking, anywho.
Not to be a pedant here but: gender has literally NOTHING at all to do with biology. And I mean in a basic and literal dictionary definitional sense.

From Merriam Webster:
Merriam Webster Dictionary wrote:a subclass within a grammatical class (such as noun, pronoun, adjective, or verb) of a language that is partly arbitrary but also partly based on distinguishable characteristics (such as shape, social rank, manner of existence, or sex) and that determines agreement with and selection of other words or grammatical forms

the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex
The word you're looking for with regards to biological makeup is sex.
Merriam Webster Dictionary wrote:either of the two major forms of individuals that occur in many species and that are distinguished respectively as female or male especially on the basis of their reproductive organs and structures
This is an incredibly basic, key thing that often gets COMPLETELY glossed over whenever idiots (almost always cis idiots) on the internet discuss transgenderism: Sex and Gender are in NO WAY the same fucking thing, *at all*, and merging the two together into one concept is both baseline factually incorrect as well as contributes to all manner of grotesque mischaracterizations and basic misunderstandings about what transgender people mean when they talk about gender being fluid and a societal construct.

I'm going to put this as bluntly and simply as I possibly can: literally NOT ONE SINGLE SOLITARY transgender public figure of note that I can conceivably think of, nor one single cisgender expert on the subject of any shred of credibility that I can possibly call to mind, nor even any or all transgender people whom I've merely personally known throughout my own life, not a single blessed fucking one of them has EVER come within motherfucking lightyears of claiming that either:

A) Sex and Gender are one and the same thing.

Or B) That biological sex from birth is every bit as arbitrarily fluid a social construct as gender identity.

The ONLY people who EVER seem to routinely make EITHER of the above unwaveringly textbook factual mistakes/misunderstandings about these concepts as a matter of repeated habit are:

1) Right wing (and sometimes occasionally even centrist) political players with a clear and purposeful agenda for gaslighting and muddying the waters of reality and fact for random Joe or Jane Average normies (and the alienated, directionless, angry gamer/Otaku/4chan dorks online). The Ben Shapiros of the world, and those far, far worse than his like: your Richard Spencers and Milo Yiannopolous, and so forth.

Just so we're as iron-clad clear as can be here regarding who *actually* has the sinister and deceptively underhanded “agenda” in all of this when it comes to the concept of what things like “gender identity” actually means in reality.

or 2) Absolute fucking dumbshit morons on the internet who've almost unanimously have almost NEVER had a single personal interaction or relationship of substance or note with a transgender person in their lives.

supersaiyanZero wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:43 am
Enter the trans. I don't know. Like, I really don't. I don't begin to think that I can understand what it feels like to be born in a female body but really feel like you are male.
Apart from some of the earlier points you've made regarding insidious anti-LGBTQ/minority legislation and systemic inequality (which again, all the credit in the world for putting out there), this is by far and away without question the other most pinpoint accurate and correct statement you've made in this entire thread. Easily.

What I'm simply saying in all of this Niagara Falls worth of text here is that you might want to take this line of thinking here a step or two further into:

“I also don't think I can even begin to understand or comprehend the kinds of day to day abuses, indignities, belittling, and general dehumanizing misery and shaming that countless random non-trans people often subject trans people to on a regular basis, nor can I begin to fathom the deeper ramifications regarding how we as a broader society both think about, talk about, and portray transgender people (and all other LGBTQ folk) and how it *dramatically* impacts the day to day, lived in experiences of these people in ways that are totally beyond and outside of the lived in experiences of the rest of us, and clearly I haven't put NEARLY the level of deeper thought, critical understanding, or baseline human compassion into the matter as I probably ought to have.”

supersaiyanZero wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:43 am
And you know what? That's fine. To me, that person is still biologically a female. Do they identify as a dude? Sure. Who cares. It's really a bigger deal to you than it is to me.
If it truly wasn't that big of a deal to you, then you wouldn't have been *nearly* as “triggered” by some of the points raised in this thread as you clearly have been: such as having Piccolo's asexual status, of all fucking things, being expressly named and pointed out as such set you off into a “Rrrrrr IDENTITY POLITICS BAD!!!” screed.

supersaiyanZero wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:43 am
But I don't for a second question the validity of their existence or experience.
Except... you have. You've done exactly so *repeatedly* ad nauseam just within the span of this one single post that I've spent nearly 30 fucking pages dissecting now. And seemingly without even trying to on your end.

That its taken me roughly 30 goddamn pages to drain out (like an over-sized, puss-filled zit) all the oodles upon oodles of raw, overpowering vapidity, condescending arrogance, and ignorance from it shows precisely the hideously dense and multi-layered degrees to which you HAVE not only questioned, but have also belittled, shamed, mocked, trivialized, sneered at, looked down upon, and otherwise made a sick joke out of their existence and experience.

That you clearly aren't the least bit even consciously aware that you've done *exactly that* all throughout this thread – without even intending to - only serves to highlight how DEEPLY ingrained all of these poor assumptions, ingrained biases, and yes layers of outright ignorance regarding the LGBTQ community actually are.


(Concluded in Part 3)
http://80s90sdragonballart.tumblr.com/

Kunzait's Wuxia Thread
Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

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