Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Sadala Elite]

There's a lot that disproves it. Goku only uses Kaioken when he absolutely needs to. Both Gohan and 17 proved that they are at least a little better than SSB Goku at the start of the ToP through their fights with Goku. Plus, Manga Gohan matching Kefla is better than anything Freeza did in either version of the ToP. And Base Toppo had both characters struggling against him. There's no evidence that Golden Freeza could beat Base Toppo from the anime.

Herms said that in an old tweet back in early 2018.

This is nonsense. Gohan was said to rival Goku, not match or surpass him. 17 is around Gohan's level going by their fight with Toppo so both of them are weaker than Goku and by extention Freeza.

Manga Gohan was confirmed to still be Goku's lesser so by extention he is also inferior to Freeza.

Ofcourse Manga Gohan is lesser than MUI Goku, but nothing says he's weaker than Manga Freeza (who's in no way equal to MUI Goku, nor even CSSB Goku based on their Kale fight).

And there's nothing in the anime that says 17 & Gohan where weaker than Freeza, nor anything that says Freeza could take on Base Toppo (feats and statements don't support either).

[Koitsukai]

And there's nothing in the anime that says 17 & Gohan where weaker than Freeza, nor anything that says Freeza could take on Base Toppo (feats and statements don't support either).

Well this is not true, Ultimate Gohan fought Golden Freeza and although it was a make-belive fight, Gohan couldn't keep up with Freeza.

[Miracles]

This is false, because Herms said Jiren being weaker against Vegeta than he was against Goku in episode 109 was a mistranslation. What Vegeta was trying to say was something like "haha you were performing better against Kakarot", that's why Jiren got mad after he said that.

You also ignored Vegeta's training in the Rosat before the ToP started, while all Goku and Freeza did together was one short clash.

Got a source for that bold?

Its in an old tweet from January 2018

Well nothing has changed then. Vegeta's statement is unanimously translated as Jiren holding back against him.

[Sadala Elite]

Got a source for that bold?

Its in an old tweet from January 2018

Well nothing has changed then. Vegeta's statement is unanimously translated as Jiren holding back against him.

It isnt unanimously translated that way. Plus in that scene, Jiren was also fighting Post-2nd Omen SSB Goku at the same time, so Jiren couldn't have been holding back more than before.

[Miracles]

Its in an old tweet from January 2018

Well nothing has changed then. Vegeta's statement is unanimously translated as Jiren holding back against him.

It isnt unanimously translated that way. Plus in that scene, Jiren was also fighting Post-2nd Omen SSB Goku at the same time, so Jiren couldn't have been holding back more than before.

Doesn't change the facts that the story stated Jiren was holding back against Vegeta.

[Sadala Elite]

Well nothing has changed then. Vegeta's statement is unanimously translated as Jiren holding back against him.

It isnt unanimously translated that way. Plus in that scene, Jiren was also fighting Post-2nd Omen SSB Goku at the same time, so Jiren couldn't have been holding back more than before.

Doesn't change the facts that the story stated Jiren was holding back against Vegeta.

The point was that an accurate translation says Jiren didn't hold back more against Vegeta. What Vegeta was meant to say in that scene was like "haha you were doing better against Kakarot".

[Zarely]

How would people rank all these Saiyan in their Base form from strongest to weakest?

Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Cabba, Caulifla, Kale, Future Trunks.

[Sadala Elite]

How would people rank all these Saiyan in their Base form from strongest to weakest?

Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Cabba, Caulifla, Kale, Future Trunks.

Based on the anime and DBS Broly

1. Goku
2. Vegeta
3. Kale
4. Future Trunks
5. Caulifla
6. Cabba
7. Gohan

If its based on manga then:

1. Gohan
2. Kale
3. Future Trunks
4. Goku
5. Vegeta
6. Caulifla
7. Cabba

[Thani]

How would people rank all these Saiyan in their Base form from strongest to weakest?

Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Cabba, Caulifla, Kale, Future Trunks.

Well, since their power varies in each medium, I'll just list them both.

Anime

• Goku and Vegeta are roughly equals. That much haven't changed apart from Vegeta's training in the time chamber - still, since the power he used to own Black has not been relevant in the ToP, it was either a one-time deal or Goku caught up with him. Equals.

• Gohan was seen roughly on par with Goku in his normal form after recovering his Potential Unleashed state and training some more with Piccolo.

• Cabba didn't appear to have trained since the U6 Arc, but even if he has, let's assume he got a little behind everyone else.

• Caulifla simply matched Goku in equivalent forms, so they're equally matched, which means she's equal to Gohan and Vegeta.

• Future Trunks, in the anime, was able to somewhat match Goku's SSj2 with his own SSj2. Since then, I'd assume he got a little behind since they trained to prepare for the ToP.

• Finally, Kale. Outside of her Berserk/Legendary/Full Power form, she's a weakling. By far the weakest one here, and even weaker than the fodder in the Tournament of Power (which isn't supposed to say much, since they are the strongest in their universes). She's bottom of the list.

Manga

• Goku and Vegeta are once again regarded as equals. If anything, Goku might be a little bit stronger.

• Despite his showings in the ToP, Gohan is still regarded to be only second best without Goku around, even with his Ultimate state. So he might be overall weaker than Goku, transformations aside.

• Caulifla never fought Goku so we have no way of knowing. She IS stronger than Cabba, tho, who was evenly matched with Vegeta in the U6 Tournament.

• Future Trunks should be equal. He matched Goku in equivalent forms and even overwhelmed his SSj3 with his enhanced SSj2.

• Finally, manga Kale is a MONSTER. She, in her base, is stronger than Caulifla as a SSj. Let that sink in. It would be no surprise if she was actually stronger or as strong, in base, as Goku and Vegeta in SSj as well.

It isnt unanimously translated that way. Plus in that scene, Jiren was also fighting Post-2nd Omen SSB Goku at the same time, so Jiren couldn't have been holding back more than before.

Doesn't change the facts that the story stated Jiren was holding back against Vegeta.

The point was that an accurate translation says Jiren didn't hold back more against Vegeta. What Vegeta was meant to say in that scene was like "haha you were doing better against Kakarot".

Well, that is... Technically correct. Especially since Vegeta said it after dodging Jiren's barrage. Still, I would not use it as evidence to suggest that Vegeta is stronger than First Omen Goku or even SSBKK Goku..... Also, to be fair, the way I took it, his wording was referring to Jiren's fight against SSB Goku, since, you know... Jiren did better against SSB Goku than against SSB Vegeta, which would fit in the mocking narrative he spinned. Vegeta talking about First Omen Goku would make, well, Vegeta insanely more powerful than he needs to be, narratively speaking.

To me it sounded not that Jiren was holding back, but rather that Vegeta got the better of him at that moment - he studied his movements beforehand, after all, and after that solid blow he went on the offensive, forcing Jiren on the defensive, which didn't lasted long.

[ZombieVito]

Ofcourse Manga Gohan is lesser than MUI Goku, but nothing says he's weaker than Manga Freeza (who's in no way equal to MUI Goku, nor even CSSB Goku based on their Kale fight).

And there's nothing in the anime that says 17 & Gohan where weaker than Freeza, nor anything that says Freeza could take on Base Toppo (feats and statements don't support either).

Yes there is. Both Goku and Freeza were equally beat up after the latter arrives on Earth. Goku also tells Vegeta that he might not be able to beat him.

Freeza also says he will be able to beat Kale if he takes her seriously.

Freeza was said to be EQUAL to Blue Goku in the anime. That alone makes him stronger than Gohan and 17.

[Koitsukai]

How would people rank all these Saiyan in their Base form from strongest to weakest?

Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Cabba, Caulifla, Kale, Future Trunks.

1) Goku (he is Goku)
2) Vegeta (he is Vegeta)
3) Gohan (he held his own against base Goku while also dealing with Tenshinhan)
4) Trunks (his SS2 made Goku go SS3)
5) Caulifla (as SS2 she couldn't overwhelm a tired base Goku, so I have her behind the U7 saiyans)
6) Cabba (while seemed pretty much on par with Vegeta in base, he didn't seem to go through everything Geets went on the way to the ToP)
7) Kale (she depends on her LSS form)

[Sadala Elite]

Ofcourse Manga Gohan is lesser than MUI Goku, but nothing says he's weaker than Manga Freeza (who's in no way equal to MUI Goku, nor even CSSB Goku based on their Kale fight).

And there's nothing in the anime that says 17 & Gohan where weaker than Freeza, nor anything that says Freeza could take on Base Toppo (feats and statements don't support either).

Yes there is. Both Goku and Freeza were equally beat up after the latter arrives on Earth. Goku also tells Vegeta that he might not be able to beat him.

Freeza also says he will be able to beat Kale if he takes her seriously.

Freeza was said to be EQUAL to Blue Goku in the anime. That alone makes him stronger than Gohan and 17.

"Might" doesn't equal definitely. And there's nothing in the manga feat-wise to suggest Freeza could have beaten Kale if even SSJ1 Kale could throw him around.

You second argument fails too because NOTHING says SSB Goku at the start of the ToP was stronger than 17 (who forced Goku into SSB and was holding back) nor Gohan (who forced Goku into SSBKK).

[ZombieVito]

Ofcourse Manga Gohan is lesser than MUI Goku, but nothing says he's weaker than Manga Freeza (who's in no way equal to MUI Goku, nor even CSSB Goku based on their Kale fight).

And there's nothing in the anime that says 17 & Gohan where weaker than Freeza, nor anything that says Freeza could take on Base Toppo (feats and statements don't support either).

Yes there is. Both Goku and Freeza were equally beat up after the latter arrives on Earth. Goku also tells Vegeta that he might not be able to beat him.

Freeza also says he will be able to beat Kale if he takes her seriously.

Freeza was said to be EQUAL to Blue Goku in the anime. That alone makes him stronger than Gohan and 17.

"Might" doesn't equal definitely. And there's nothing in the manga feat-wise to suggest Freeza could have beaten Kale if even SSJ1 Kale could throw him around.

You second argument fails too because NOTHING says SSB Goku at the start of the ToP was stronger than 17 (who forced Goku into SSB and was holding back) nor Gohan (who forced Goku into SSBKK).

Freeza says he can BEAT HER. Jesus Christ.

Goku was also hodling back against 17 and Gohan didn't force Goku into Kaioken.

Why are you ignoring that both of them failed to do anything to Toppo? That alone proves there's a significant gap between them and SSB Goku.

And if you are still being stubborn about this. In 109, Kai suggest that SSB Goku is the current strongest in the ToP besides Jiren since the defeat of the former will make the rest of the fighters lose the will to fight and this is before he even uses Kaioken.

[Sadala Elite]

Yes there is. Both Goku and Freeza were equally beat up after the latter arrives on Earth. Goku also tells Vegeta that he might not be able to beat him.

Freeza also says he will be able to beat Kale if he takes her seriously.

Freeza was said to be EQUAL to Blue Goku in the anime. That alone makes him stronger than Gohan and 17.

"Might" doesn't equal definitely. And there's nothing in the manga feat-wise to suggest Freeza could have beaten Kale if even SSJ1 Kale could throw him around.

You second argument fails too because NOTHING says SSB Goku at the start of the ToP was stronger than 17 (who forced Goku into SSB and was holding back) nor Gohan (who forced Goku into SSBKK).

Freeza says he can BEAT HER. Jesus Christ.

Goku was also hodling back against 17 and Gohan didn't force Goku into Kaioken.

Why are you ignoring that both of them failed to do anything to Toppo? That alone proves there's a significant gap between them and SSB Goku.

And if you are still being stubborn about this. In 109, Kai suggest that SSB Goku is the current strongest in the ToP besides Jiren since the defeat of the former will make the rest of the fighters lose the will to fight and this is before he even uses Kaioken.

Just because a character says they can beat someone doesn't mean they could (especially an arrogant one like Freeza, who said in both versions that he could beat Jiren lmao).

And while we're at it, SSB Goku didn't really do much to Base Toppo (who was supressed) at the preliminaries either, so nothing says Freeza would have done any better against Base Toppo than Goku did.

And your last point about ep.109 says nothing about Freeza allegedly being Goku's equal.

[Zarely]

Didn't Krillin mention that Gohan could become as strong as Goku? He should be weaker than Blue Goku in the manga.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

To me, it always seemed obvious. Goku, Vegeta, Freeza, and Toppo are all around the same SSB/Golden Freeza level, while Ultimate Gohan and 17 are around the same "below Blue" level.

How they compare to SSG is a more interesting question in my book.

[Thani]

To me, it always seemed obvious. Goku, Vegeta, Freeza, and Toppo are all around the same SSB/Golden Freeza level, while Ultimate Gohan and 17 are around the same "below Blue" level.

How they compare to SSG is a more interesting question in my book.

Pretty much the impression I always had. I'd assume they're stronger than SSG at their full power (Gohan DID manage to land a solid blow on SSB Goku, enough to convince Goku to show his "full power" in the form of the kaioken), perhaps even enough to actually fight SSB Goku for an extended time. In that regard, perhaps they're on the same level as Wrathful Broly? Like, able to fight SSB Goku but unable to properly beat him?

[ZombieVito]

Just because a character says they can beat someone doesn't mean they could (especially an arrogant one like Freeza, who said in both versions that he could beat Jiren lmao).

And while we're at it, SSB Goku didn't really do much to Base Toppo (who was supressed) at the preliminaries either, so nothing says Freeza would have done any better against Base Toppo than Goku did.

And your last point about ep.109 says nothing about Freeza allegedly being Goku's equal.

No contradiction was ever said or shown so it's true.

Whis said SSB Goku = Golden Freeza...

[wolflonnie]

It is worth nothing that the new game DBZ: Kakarot has BP for the characters, that get progressively higher. They're just for fun and don't increase with, example, food boost, but still they're very on spot and surprisingly accurate in some cases (ex.: 53k for Vegeta after Recoome battle, 1 mil and half for Vegeta vs Frieza, 3 mil for base Goku vs Frieza, etc.).
They seem to be following semi-official numbers to some degree. Might be worth do a list of these.

Some stuff I noticed while playing. It's all after the Frieza saga, before Trunks' arrival.

- Gohan's BP is very low (24k or something), We all know that Gohan's should be dramatically higher than 24k, but maybe the devs thought that it stays low and it only skyrockets when he's enraged/in danger, which is actually what Vegeta says when he fights Frieza. This brings to mind Gohan being ragdolled by Cooler's goons.

- The earthlings are barely on the Ginew Force's radar. Tien is 70k, Krillin 30k and Yamcha 12k something.

- Chaotzu is barely stronger than Nappa. He's sitting at 6000. Again... oddly believable.

Keep in mind that the Gohan in my game is lv.35ish while the Tien lv.12 at most. The difference in BP between, say, Vegeta and Krillin, even though they're around the same in-game level, is astronomical as it should be. So BP don't scale with level and are made up by devs.
They don't seem to be influecing stats so they're merely fanservice.
I didn't take notes so I might remember something wrong, but I think I will take some notes now that I'm post Frieza saga.

[ZombieVito]

Gohan and Kuririn are terribly low lol.

They are suppose to be the strongest after Vegeta and Piccolo when Mecha Freeza arrives.