Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

Wouldn't Kefla at least be Blue-tier?

Yes Kefla was. People don't get it...Power escalates in DB...Saganbo is just stronger than TOP Kefla/Gohan.
Since this current Gohan; who only got stronger after the TOP, is no comparison to Saganbo.

No, Kefla WASN'T!
Kefla was much weaker than most of people think, at least in the manga, because she was the product of a fusion between two very injured and weakened fighters.
His power at that point being at the same level as Mystic Gohan is credible. Still enough to beat the weakest fighters on Jiren's team, at the same level of serious Gohan, MUCH BELOW any SSJGod form in strength.

Regrds.

But it was never stated that Kefla was weakened. She was perfectly clean and healthy when fused.
Not to mention right after her fusion the narration states that she might be unmatched in the TOP. That means she is among the Top tier.

[Koitsukai]

While nothing implied Kefla was weaker or anything, Kale was pretty much out when Cabba put the Potara on her. Like her eyes weren't open and she wasn't even standing up and when they merge she looks like deadweight.
I wouldn't say Kefla was weakened because she looked all neat and clean but fusing while you are out can suggest the fusion won't be at its fullest.

[Thunderbird]

So is Piccolo stronger than Android 17 now?

Could Saganbo have beat Super Saiyan Blue Goku before his training?

[Hugo Boss]

A lot of people, both here, and at other places, are saying stuff like Gohan, 17, or Kefla aren’t “SSJ Blue Level”. I have no idea what they mean by that, since as early as the Revival of F arc does “SSJ Blue Level” exist.

I always assume they are talking about SSBlue from Jiren Arc or SSBlue range in general. Not exactly what you say.

So is Piccolo stronger than Android 17 now?

Could Saganbo have beat Super Saiyan Blue Goku before his training?

17 getting away of the fight before Piccolo and Goku complimenting Piccolo’s strength makes it a fair assumption.

We don’t know exactly, but Goku probably wouldn’t perform much better than Gohan. At certain point, Saganbo could withstand enough power to beat that level.

[Thunderbird]

So then is Piccolo stronger than Goku's (not current) Super Saiyan 3 then? Because Android 17 seemed to be at at least that level.

[Sora Saiyan]

While nothing implied Kefla was weaker or anything, Kale was pretty much out when Cabba put the Potara on her. Like her eyes weren't open and she wasn't even standing up and when they merge she looks like deadweight.
I wouldn't say Kefla was weakened because she looked all neat and clean but fusing while you are out can suggest the fusion won't be at its fullest.

I basically agree with this, except in universe we know 100% that she is not at FP due to the fact we now know fusion isn't at FP if the fusees are weakened. It's been shown in both the anime and manga now. The manga does a piss poor job of portraying this, and I'm not sure if Toyo just forgot, but in universe Kefla is definitely not at full power.
We shouldn't rely on statements when we've been shown this stuff in the past, but Toyo kinda fucked up with the Vados statement so I can kinda get why this is awkward. Although, Vados was miles off when she claimed that Kefla may be unmatched. Honestly that part was an absolute mess, and now that Goku has gotten stronger in general it may be impossible to know for sure if Gohan was ever truly close to Blue Goku at that time.

[wolflonnie]

So then is Piccolo stronger than Goku's (not current) Super Saiyan 3 then? Because Android 17 seemed to be at at least that level.

I assume he is, maybe even stronger. He's more than capable of teaming up with Gohan. He wouldn't be if he was that much weaker than him. Also Goku's comment extended to him as well.

[CortoMaltese]

Piccolo act more like a support character.
Against Seven-Three, he rest behind Gohan.
However, C17 find the cyborg really weak and beat him physically whith ease.
So he appear C17 is far stronger than Piccolo.

In the chapter 58, Saganbo fight Gohan face to face when Piccolo kick Saganbo from behind...
It's just Gohan and Piccolo's training is based on a perfect teaming.
Piccolo is efficient with Gohan as a support Character, alone he's weaker than C17.

[Thunderbird]

I assume he is, maybe even stronger. He's more than capable of teaming up with Gohan. He wouldn't be if he was that much weaker than him. Also Goku's comment extended to him as well.

Well he was a lot weaker than him two months ago what with Gohan easily smacking around Seven-Three with Piccolos powers. Maybe Piccolo improved faster.

[Koitsukai]

I'm not so sure about Piccolo being stronger than 17. When the twins jumped in, 7-3 was using Moro's abilities so only androids could fight him. And 17 trashed him, so 7-3 must've been using Moro's power from before becoming much stronger. Probably Gohan could've done the same if he could prevent 7-3 from getting his power.

Vs Saganbo, they all get beaten up but somehow Piccolo is still standing maybe because of a great strategy and teamwork with Gohan? IDK but we don't get to see what battered the androids so much, again Toyo having decisive moments of a fight off-screen.

So if 17 could beat up Moro's previous power, and if Piccolo can last longer against the same enemy than 17, then this Piccolo would be stronger than the previous Moro? or am I missing something here?

[Kagari]

It's more that 17 was written like a coward who just gives up. Piccolo and Gohan's strategy and teamwork make up for the lack of strength Piccolo has compared to Gohan.

[Koitsukai]

So, I've been wondering about Base Black in the manga

We've seen him stomp SS2 Trunks who was too much for SS2 Goku and most likely a match for SS3 Goku. According to Trunks, that gigantic power of his was no match for Black, so Base Black should be stronger than SS3 Goku, or at least even.

But then they go to the future and SS2 Vegeta fights Black. BoG laid out that SS2 Vegeta's max power might even surpass SS3 Goku, and by the FT arc they both should be relatively on same grounds because both where receiving the same training. But the fight doesn't go as you would expect from a SS2 Vegeta/SS3 Goku/SS2 Trunks tier. Even assuming SS2 Vegeta> SS3 Goku, he procedes to stomp SS Black! SS2 Vegeta is doing something to SS Black that SS3 Goku wouldn't have done even to base Black.

What's the explanation for this? The only explanation I see is Vegeta being leagues above Trunks who happens to NOT be behind Goku(god forms aside), but I don't remember the manga implying Vegeta is the top dog of the saiyans now.

[Zamasu55]

Piccolo > 17 was HEAVILY implied.

If this is the case, then the Namekian is Ssj3 tier now.

[Thani]

So, I've been wondering about Base Black in the manga

We've seen him stomp SS2 Trunks who was too much for SS2 Goku and most likely a match for SS3 Goku. According to Trunks, that gigantic power of his was no match for Black, so Base Black should be stronger than SS3 Goku, or at least even.

But then they go to the future and SS2 Vegeta fights Black. BoG laid out that SS2 Vegeta's max power might even surpass SS3 Goku, and by the FT arc they both should be relatively on same grounds because both where receiving the same training. But the fight doesn't go as you would expect from a SS2 Vegeta/SS3 Goku/SS2 Trunks tier. Even assuming SS2 Vegeta> SS3 Goku, he procedes to stomp SS Black! SS2 Vegeta is doing something to SS Black that SS3 Goku wouldn't have done even to base Black.

What's the explanation for this? The only explanation I see is Vegeta being leagues above Trunks who happens to NOT be behind Goku(god forms aside), but I don't remember the manga implying Vegeta is the top dog of the saiyans now.

Yeah, that is one of the weird parts of the manga. By all means, SSj Black should be too much for Vegeta's normal transformations, if he's supposed to be stronger than SSj3 Goku in Base (even if we assume Vegeta has the same improved SSj2 Trunks has that matched SSj3).

[Hugo Boss]

I think the manga established that Goku Black couldn’t let out his true Super Saiyan powers until his fight with Vegeta. That’s why it seems his vanilla Super Saiyan isn’t strong in comparison to Vegeta, but after being “revived” he managed to match the imperfect SSBlue.

[Sadala Elite]

Also, to everyone else here, there is no set “SSJ Blue level”.

I don’t see anyone advocating for this opinion. Super has kept a good record of making SSBlue consistently stronger.

You’re wrong. A lot of people, both here, and at other places, are saying stuff like Gohan, 17, or Kefla aren’t “SSJ Blue Level”. I have no idea what they mean by that, since as early as the Revival of F arc does “SSJ Blue Level” exist.

To add to this, i'd even go as far as the say ToP SSG > RoF SSB (especially in the anime)

[GodVegetto91]

I don’t see anyone advocating for this opinion. Super has kept a good record of making SSBlue consistently stronger.

You’re wrong. A lot of people, both here, and at other places, are saying stuff like Gohan, 17, or Kefla aren’t “SSJ Blue Level”. I have no idea what they mean by that, since as early as the Revival of F arc does “SSJ Blue Level” exist.

To add to this, i'd even go as far as the say ToP SSG > RoF SSB (especially in the anime)

Exactly! Both Manga aswell as Anime versions of Gohan (Current! Gohan) are now far stronger than the initial SSJ Blue Goku and Vegeta against Golden Frieza. And that easily includes 17 and Kefla, and I suppose quite a few others aswell.

People have to understand the power creep with each new Arc. Goku and Vegeta (even with the same new forms) don’t stay the same in strength.

[Koitsukai]

I think the manga established that Goku Black couldn’t let out his true Super Saiyan powers until his fight with Vegeta. That’s why it seems his vanilla Super Saiyan isn’t strong in comparison to Vegeta, but after being “revived” he managed to match the imperfect SSBlue.

But even so, base Black shouldn't be that overpowered by SS2 Vegeta. That would make SS2 Vegeta way stronger than SS3 Goku, because apparently SS3 Goku wouldn't be enough for Base Black. At best, base Black vs SS2 Vegeta should've been an evenly matched fight.

[MechaTrunks]

Yes Kefla was. People don't get it...Power escalates in DB...Saganbo is just stronger than TOP Kefla/Gohan.
Since this current Gohan; who only got stronger after the TOP, is no comparison to Saganbo.

No, Kefla WASN'T!
Kefla was much weaker than most of people think, at least in the manga, because she was the product of a fusion between two very injured and weakened fighters.
His power at that point being at the same level as Mystic Gohan is credible. Still enough to beat the weakest fighters on Jiren's team, at the same level of serious Gohan, MUCH BELOW any SSJGod form in strength.

Regrds.

But it was never stated that Kefla was weakened. She was perfectly clean and healthy when fused.
Not to mention right after her fusion the narration states that she might be unmatched in the TOP. That means she is among the Top tier.

It was stated by the consolidated facts of the series.
Vegetto also appeared without injuries in the fight against Zamatsu, but he still took the senzu bean to recover his strength.

Since it's established canon that a Fusion of two injured characters results in a weaker result, there's no doubt that Kefla was always at a much lower level than if Kale and Caulifla had fused in normal conditions.

Toyotarou plays with those details like Toriyama did un Z, he's a good writter.

So far, this has only been a fan assumption. The manga doesn’t confirm it.

Nope, this is not a fan assumption.
In the Black saga It was made pretty clear that Vegetto still had to eat the senzu to regain his strength because Vegeta and Goku were beaten when they fused.

The sole fact that Vegetto took the senzu proves that he was weakened, and the same has to apply to Kefla.

[Miracles]

So is Piccolo stronger than Android 17 now?

Could Saganbo have beat Super Saiyan Blue Goku before his training?

No, Saganbo was stated to be weak. Even before Goku's training they were getting boosts from Moro.
Vegeta claimed even Trunks could waste him. Therefore Saganbo was nothing until Moro boosted him.

Also, no, Piccolo is not stronger than 17, when only Gohan and 17 BEAT 7-3 HEAD UP? Piccolo never did that and only served as Gohan's SUPPORT as they fought.

Gohan/17 > 7-3 > Piccolo.

No, Kefla WASN'T!
Kefla was much weaker than most of people think, at least in the manga, because she was the product of a fusion between two very injured and weakened fighters.
His power at that point being at the same level as Mystic Gohan is credible. Still enough to beat the weakest fighters on Jiren's team, at the same level of serious Gohan, MUCH BELOW any SSJGod form in strength.

Regrds.

But it was never stated that Kefla was weakened. She was perfectly clean and healthy when fused.
Not to mention right after her fusion the narration states that she might be unmatched in the TOP. That means she is among the Top tier.

It was stated by the consolidated facts of the series.
Vegetto also appeared without injuries in the fight against Zamatsu, but he still took the senzu bean to recover his strength.

Since it's established canon that a Fusion of two injured characters results in a weaker result, there's no doubt that Kefla was always at a much lower level than if Kale and Caulifla had fused in normal conditions.

Toyotarou plays with those details like Toriyama did un Z, he's a good writter.

Except Vados stating Kefla being among the top tier in the TOP defeats that assessment.
Even the Pride Troopers stated Kefla was in a different league from Kale.
The point of narration was to make Kefla a heavy hitter.