"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kagari » Sat Mar 21, 2020 2:48 pm

emperior wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:46 am
The Undying wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:27 am
So I did some digging and found the raw version of the chapter I mentioned earlier (excuse my shitty MS Paint tier circle):

Image

Viz somewhat erroneously translated this line as "a sign of Goku awakening to Ultra Instinct", but the original Japanese text has Whis straight-up calling it [Ultra Instinct "Sign"]. Also note the quotation marks around 兆.

For reference, the full name in Japanese is 身勝手の極意”兆”.

I find that kind of amusing, given that a few western readers have been acting as if Toyotaro suddenly used that name for the incomplete form now when, as a matter of fact, it was called Ultra Instinct "Sign/Omen" since it was first introduced in the manga.

Just an interesting little observation.
Oh yes! Thanks for providing some facts! Now maybe people will shut up about this and move on.

Also, I do wholeheartedly agree with your take on how it was essential for Goku to show off his new power against Saganbo.
Really, what would be the point in Gohan and Piccolo defeating him? It would have added absolutely nothing to the story, it would have been just fanservice.

Not to mention how Goku coming and beating the best underling/henchmen his friends couldn’t beat is a trope that Toriyama used many times and to great results. I bet the same people complaining about this would also complain about Goku killing Drum (“Tenshinan is useless! He won the tournament!!!”) or Goku beating Nappa (“WTF Gohan should have beaten him”) or the Ginyus.

Like, really, it’s not hard to get that in order to not make Saganbo feel like pure filler it was absolutely needed to show Goku defeating him to show us how superior he is to everyone else now.
Also I find it silly how only now fans are realizing just how stronger than everyone else Goku and Vegeta are.
Wasting time on Goku showing off his power against Saganbo is absolutely fanservice, as is bringing back the fan favorite 'Omen' to begin with. Retreading tired tropes Toriyama used years ago is also fanservice. There's no need to cherry pick just because you didn't want to see Gohan and Piccolo beat the henchman.

And if they did, it would have added to the story. You know why? Because Toyotaro made the addition of said henchmen a major element of his story. He spent two chapters hyping up the wish to release them. He spent several chapters focusing on the Earth and its impending doom and the characters such as Gohan and Piccolo who would be there to help protect it. To say they add nothing to the story is ridiculous when the story spent time on their roles in it.

Goku showing off his power effectively could have been done just as well against Moro as has been said in this thread already. Or if he had to fight Saganbo, it should have been together with Piccolo and Gohan because we haven't seen anything like that from those characters before. Do new things!

As for "I find it silly how only now fans are realizing just how stronger than everyone else Goku and Vegeta are", the playing field was somewhat leveled in the Universe Survival arc by buffing characters like 17 and Gohan and having Freeza all be within that tier. I don't blame fans for being irritated it's been messed with so quickly, especially after characters like Piccolo and Gohan are also specifically said to have leveled up. Fans want more than two characters to do anything, it's not an unreasonable request given the history of the series.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Noitsnothim » Sat Mar 21, 2020 2:59 pm

emperior wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 7:46 am
The Undying wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:27 am
So I did some digging and found the raw version of the chapter I mentioned earlier (excuse my shitty MS Paint tier circle):

Image

Viz somewhat erroneously translated this line as "a sign of Goku awakening to Ultra Instinct", but the original Japanese text has Whis straight-up calling it [Ultra Instinct "Sign"]. Also note the quotation marks around 兆.

For reference, the full name in Japanese is 身勝手の極意”兆”.

I find that kind of amusing, given that a few western readers have been acting as if Toyotaro suddenly used that name for the incomplete form now when, as a matter of fact, it was called Ultra Instinct "Sign/Omen" since it was first introduced in the manga.

Just an interesting little observation.
Oh yes! Thanks for providing some facts! Now maybe people will shut up about this and move on.

Also, I do wholeheartedly agree with your take on how it was essential for Goku to show off his new power against Saganbo.
Really, what would be the point in Gohan and Piccolo defeating him? It would have added absolutely nothing to the story, it would have been just fanservice.

Not to mention how Goku coming and beating the best underling/henchmen his friends couldn’t beat is a trope that Toriyama used many times and to great results. I bet the same people complaining about this would also complain about Goku killing Drum (“Tenshinan is useless! He won the tournament!!!”) or Goku beating Nappa (“WTF Gohan should have beaten him”) or the Ginyus.

Like, really, it’s not hard to get that in order to not make Saganbo feel like pure filler it was absolutely needed to show Goku defeating him to show us how superior he is to everyone else now.
Also I find it silly how only now fans are realizing just how stronger than everyone else Goku and Vegeta are.
It took 6 months of training for Goku to Achieve UI Omen (Sign whatever) and I'm perfectly fine with that I guess. Fans wanted to see the struggles Goku endured while severing the ties between his mind and body ngl I wanted to see that too but you can tell it took a bit of a toll on him and made him significantly stronger than he was during the beginning of this saga (Goku might've power creeped just like Freeza back in RoF)

What I can kinda see happening is Moro is gonna get into Goku's head during this battle and try to make him think and that's gonna disable UI Moro is gonna get the jump on Goku beat the utter shit out of him (that'd cause real tension) then Vegeta will pop in and swat away Moro with his new techniques and it'll be a greater fight than the one Vegeta had against Golden Freeza

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by batistabus » Sat Mar 21, 2020 3:17 pm

Aside from the creative tactics, I like Gohan and Piccolo working together here because at least SOMEONE absorbed the lesson of teamwork from the Tournament of Power.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Sat Mar 21, 2020 3:54 pm

batistabus wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 3:17 pm
Aside from the creative tactics, I like Gohan and Piccolo working together here because at least SOMEONE absorbed the lesson of teamwork from the Tournament of Power.
I like how they were written in this chapter. That's completely fine. Seeing them working together against Saganbo (and failing to defeat him) is beneficial for the story because it allows us to properly gauge the main character's growth. It works because it functions as payoff for Goku's training, and it works because Goku is one of the main vehicles of the arc.

It's the suggestions I'm reading in this thread that make no sense. Using Moro as the benchmark doesn't work because fighting Moro will obviously require Vegeta's assistance. Having Gohan and Piccolo defeat Saganbo doesn't work because it's just wanking secondary characters at the expense of characters that actually matter to the progression of the plot, and for no apparent reason other than appeasing fanboys.

The characters should always serve the story, not the other way around. Serving characters that have no centrality in the story is vapid fanservice that means nothing and wastes the reader's time.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Michsi » Sat Mar 21, 2020 4:14 pm

Gauge Goku's strength? Do we really need to see him defeat Saganbo to know he is at another level? He was just training with an Angel, whereas Gohan&co just did your regular Earth training. This isn't anything like Nappa, where him steam rolling the Earth fighters and then getting easily beaten by Goku actually meant something.
Either the writers are unaware of how well established Goku and Vegeta's superiority is (which given Piccolo's line could be the case) or they really do intend to have Goku get his ass handed to him now against Moro and he has to secure a win before that.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kagari » Sat Mar 21, 2020 4:17 pm

The Undying wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 3:54 pm
batistabus wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 3:17 pm
Aside from the creative tactics, I like Gohan and Piccolo working together here because at least SOMEONE absorbed the lesson of teamwork from the Tournament of Power.
I like how they were written in this chapter. That's completely fine. Seeing them working together against Saganbo (and failing to defeat him) is beneficial for the story because it allows us to properly gauge the main character's growth. It works because it functions as payoff for Goku's training, and it works because Goku is one of the main vehicles of the arc.

It's the suggestions I'm reading in this thread that make no sense. Using Moro as the benchmark doesn't work because fighting Moro will obviously require Vegeta's assistance. Having Gohan and Piccolo defeat Saganbo doesn't work because it's just wanking secondary characters at the expense of characters that actually matter to the progression of the plot, and for no apparent reason other than appeasing fanboys.

The characters should always serve the story, not the other way around. Serving characters that have no centrality in the story is vapid fanservice that means nothing and wastes the reader's time.
Fighting Moro can also serve as a payoff for Goku's training though. Rehashing the tired "Goku saves his friends" device doesn't work because none of the drama or atmosphere that made those old scenes work is present. Goku beating on Saganbo is just throwaway wankery to, as you said, appease fanboys.

The Dragon Team characters were serving the story, the henchmen were absolutely part of the story like it or not. Like Goku, they too were training so it would have made sense to see more of their payoff play out rather than have it be just a line on the page.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Noitsnothim » Sat Mar 21, 2020 4:34 pm

So

let's say this isn't the last saga of 'Super' and they were to continue what are somethings that you'd like to see explored? (Ex. Broly and the gang returning, Freeza returns, Gods of Destruction assault on U7 similar to BBM in Heroes except they're out to fight Broly because his power is becoming greater than theirs, Planet Sadala arc, Namekian book of legends Yamoshi) What would make the perfect end and tying up loose ends that you can look back and be satisfied years or generations from now?

I don't want super to suffer a similar fate to GT because at least Super has given us awesome characters like Hit Jiren Kefla Toppo & Dyspo the GoDs Broly and actually tried to add more to DB's lore while also sacrificing a lot of what's already been establish

For me an ideal sendoff and end for Super would be Beerus wanting to target Broly after being Manipulated and paranoid by Freeza after saying Broly's destructive power is greater than Beerus' and he tries to kill him by destroying Vampa (Killing Baa) causing Broly to want revenge and Goku & Vegeta get involved soon all the 11 Gods began to join and it's an all GoD war in U7 against the Saiyan Trinity and Goku activates MUI (true UI) and Beerus goes 100% and they fight till U7 is destroyed

that'd be epic (Sorry if I'm all over the place)

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Sat Mar 21, 2020 4:42 pm

GT >>>>>> Super

So if you get anything resembling GT's finale you'd better be god damned grateful. Super has been a clusterfuck since day one with increasingly boring characters that wouldn't fly in any other fandom.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Noitsnothim » Sat Mar 21, 2020 4:44 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 4:42 pm
GT >>>>>> Super

So if you get anything resembling GT's finale you'd better be god damned grateful. Super has been a clusterfuck since day one with increasingly boring characters that wouldn't fly in any other fandom.
The executions aren't great (you right) but at least it isn't god awful I feel like Super has a lot of good moreso than GT (GT gave us cool stuff like SS4 and SS4 Gogeta/The Shadow Dragons) but that's legit it

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Sat Mar 21, 2020 4:53 pm

Kagari wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 4:17 pm
Fighting Moro can also serve as a payoff for Goku's training though.
And I believe I adequately just explained why Moro isn't a sufficient benchmark.
Kagari wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 4:17 pm
Goku beating on Saganbo is just throwaway wankery to, as you said, appease fanboys.
Did you miss the part where I said Goku is one of the main vehicles of the arc?

I think you missed the part where I said Goku is one of the main vehicles of the arc.

Goku is the central protagonist of this particular story. Vegeta is also the central protagonist of this story. All of these things were established right from the get-go, right from the start of the Moro arc, with mostly everything else building off of that crucial premise. Demonstrating the main hero's growth needed to combat the main antagonist isn't "throwaway wankery", it's basic story progression.

Gohan, Piccolo, Yamcha, and everyone else were thrown right into the climax of the plot at the last minute to fight off a bunch of mook henchmen that barely mattered to the story (don't take my word for it, Moro himself said they didn't matter) and had very little to do with the main conflict. That's derivative character writing. That's throwaway fanservice. On very few occasions were they actually utilized in a manner that benefited the main characters.

Again, characters serve the story. The story doesn't serve characters. If you want a story about Gohan or whoever, that's fine, but he needs to be crucial to that story from the start - otherwise he's just a secondary character, and secondary characters exist to supplement the main characters.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kagari » Sat Mar 21, 2020 4:59 pm

The Undying wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 4:53 pm
Kagari wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 4:17 pm
Fighting Moro can also serve as a payoff for Goku's training though.
And I believe I adequately just explained why Moro isn't a sufficient benchmark.
Kagari wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 4:17 pm
Goku beating on Saganbo is just throwaway wankery to, as you said, appease fanboys.
Did you miss the part where I said Goku is one of the main vehicles of the arc?

I think you missed the part where I said Goku is one of the main vehicles of the arc.

Goku is the central protagonist of this particular story. Vegeta is also the central protagonist of this story. All of these things were established right from the get-go, right from the start of the Moro arc, with mostly everything else building off of that crucial premise. Demonstrating the main hero's growth needed to combat the main antagonist isn't "throwaway wankery", it's basic story progression.

Gohan, Piccolo, Yamcha, and everyone else were thrown right into the climax of the plot at the last minute to fight off a bunch of mook henchmen that barely mattered to the story (don't take my word for it, Moro himself said they didn't matter) and had very little to do with the main conflict. That's derivative character writing. That's throwaway fanservice. On very few occasions were they actually utilized in a manner that benefited the main characters.

Again, characters serve the story. The story doesn't serve characters. If you want a story about Gohan or whoever, that's fine, but he needs to be crucial to that story from the start - otherwise he's just a secondary character, and secondary characters exist to supplement the main characters.
Yes, the same Goku who sat around on Namek while Vegeta did everything. Goku was literally a vehicle until Toyotarou decided halfway through "oh hey, I'm gonna have UI come back!"

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Sat Mar 21, 2020 5:12 pm

The Undying wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 4:53 pm
Again, characters serve the story. The story doesn't serve characters. If you want a story about Gohan or whoever, that's fine, but he needs to be crucial to that story from the start - otherwise he's just a secondary character, and secondary characters exist to supplement the main characters.
But that's also true of Goku. He's been a side character doing very little and adding no tension or drama to the broader story. He's basically Zeno at the end of the Zamasu Arc. All the drama and character moments happen with him not there, then he sweeps in at the end to kill the BBEG before vanishing again. That's been his role since the Saiyan Arc. How is no one else tired of it?
Kagari wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 4:59 pm
Yes, the same Goku who sat around on Namek while Vegeta did everything. Goku was literally a vehicle until Toyotarou decided halfway through "oh hey, I'm gonna have UI come back!"

Exactly! Goku's a side character in this story too. More so than the humans/Galactic Patrol as at least they have the excuse of being the peace keeping force responsible for solving this problem. I may not like Vegeta but so far the story points to him being the hero. If anyone was going to sweep in to finish the peons before moving on to Moro it should have been him.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Sat Mar 21, 2020 5:18 pm

I don't think Saganbo losing to Goku was an absolute need for the story. Specially not the dragged-out fight it ended up being which is my main issue. He is just a goon like any other, not even the main one, after Goku put him down (so many times) I didn't learn anything that I didn't know already from the DBZ experience and from following his training this past few months: that Goku is on another level now.


There is another goon that is passing right by us and that according to Moro is going to be needed in the near future. So what if 7-3 grabs the neck of Goku and fights Goku? or Moro makes him fight Vegeta's new power when he finally arrives? or maybe Moro and 7-3(Moro'd) vs Goku and Vegeta?
I think there is potential for a different and new type of final fight, maybe Goku AND Vegeta can both have their win?

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Sat Mar 21, 2020 5:26 pm

But Goku was always involved in this conflict from the start, even if at first he was being in Vegeta’s shadow the plot still had Goku as central as Vegeta and Merus. About Merus, he will most likely have to return in this very arc to complete his character arc and I expect that to be over once he fights at full power against Moro and is then erased by the Daishinkan.

While Gohan and Piccolo only joined halfway through, and nothing pointed to them becoming as important as Goku and Vegeta are in this story, which is why their training was completely skipped.
If Toyotaro had built Gohan and Piccolo up to do some incredible training and preparation for the battle (for example by hyping up Gohan’s potential and by having Piccolo power-up a lot too) then maybe I would agree with the idea of them being main contributors to the fight. But this didn’t happen, and as The Undying has correctly pointed out, the most logical thing was for Goku to show his power on Saganbo and to establish Gohan and Piccolo as too outclassed to join the main fight.

The only thing I can agree with is that yes, a teamwork between Goku and Gohan and possibly Piccolo too to defeat Saganbo could have been cool but, again, very fanservicey even if “new” as Goku alone was more than enough to beat Saganbo, obviously, or else he would be way too weaker than Moro.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Sat Mar 21, 2020 5:30 pm

emperior wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 5:26 pm
But Goku was always involved in this conflict from the start, even if at first he was being in Vegeta’s shadow he plot still wanted us to know Goku was as central as Vegeta and Merus.
Don't change your criteria just to carve out a special case for Goku. Goku was window dressing, much like the Galactic Patrol. And unlike them Goku doesn't have an immediate in story reason to be proactive about this threat. Vegeta has carried this story.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Kagari » Sat Mar 21, 2020 5:37 pm

emperior wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 5:26 pm
But Goku was always involved in this conflict from the start, even if at first he was being in Vegeta’s shadow the plot still had Goku as central as Vegeta and Merus. About Merus, he will most likely have to return in this very arc to complete his character arc and I expect that to be over once he fights at full power against Moro and is then erased by the Daishinkan.

While Gohan and Piccolo only joined halfway through, and nothing pointed to them becoming as important as Goku and Vegeta are in this story, which is why their training was completely skipped.
If Toyotaro had built Gohan and Piccolo up to do some incredible training and preparation for the battle (for example by hyping up Gohan’s potential and by having Piccolo power-up a lot too) then maybe I would agree with the idea of them being main contributors to the fight. But this didn’t happen, and as The Undying has correctly pointed out, the most logical thing was for Goku to show his power on Saganbo and to establish Gohan and Piccolo as too outclassed to join the main fight.

The only thing I can agree with is that yes, a teamwork between Goku and Gohan and possibly Piccolo too to defeat Saganbo could have been cool but, again, very fanservicey even if “new” as Goku alone was more than enough to beat Saganbo, obviously, or else he would be way too weaker than Moro.
You could have removed Goku from those portions and the only thing that would have changed is how they got to Namek. Boo was supposed to be central too but he's now no where in sight.

As for the training, it's not like we really saw any of Goku's outside of a few panels either. Same with Vegeta other than some vague meditation. And it's not necessary to hype up Gohan's potential when that's been the foundation of his character for decades. The reader should already know that is true of him.

Training in Super has been mostly off-screen for a long time now, even for characters like Goku. It's just how it is and shouldn't really be considered a factor of a character's value to the story. Especially since last arc we had 17 win the ToP and his growth was entirely footnotes on the page.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by The Undying » Sat Mar 21, 2020 5:53 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 5:12 pm
But that's also true of Goku.
Is Luke Skywalker a "side character" because he spent most of his time in Empire Strikes Back training, growing, and preparing for the main conflict?

Is Arya Stark suddenly a "side character" for struggling as a Faceless Man trainee in Braavos for an enormous portion of her entire plotline?

I don't know how to respond to this. It's such a bizarre take on how narrative structure works that I don't think any reader or self-respecting writer is going to use this criteria for what constitutes primary protagonists, or walk away from entire arcs thinking "Yep, this hero's jouney totally wasn't a journey about the hero because he had a sometimes-offscreen training montage!".

This just feels like engaging in mind olympics for the sake of propping up actual side characters.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Tai Lung » Sat Mar 21, 2020 9:53 pm

that gohan and piccolo fight together in the anime makes sense because gohan does not use all his power .. he contains himself to save energy and later he shows his true power when he defeat dyspo but in the manga ...

Gohan and Piccolo are using all their power and fight together. Does that mean that Gohan and Piccolo have the same level or what? :crazy:
The Undying wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:33 pm
I thoroughly enjoyed what this chapter did with Ultra Instinct. Instead of being some grand demonstration of big flashy attacks, its speed is highlighted and has this subtle, super swift ninja-esque trick that stealthily throws Saganbo off-guard and leaves him wide open to strikes that Gohan and Piccolo otherwise failed to achieve with more head-on ki blasts. I like when pre-established abilities are applied in fresh ways, and using the flawed Ultra Instinct "Omen" to do this is smart because it retains the full Ultra Instinct as a plateau that Goku can't easily reach by himself. That's a good compromise.

Pretty solid use of dialogue here as well. It's interesting to see Goku and Moro engaged in some sort of bargaining game, with Moro ultimately getting his way by pressuring Goku to use his new ability. That's a nice bit of character writing that contrasts how these two opponents see their allies while emphasizing how much of a skilled manipulator Moro can be, attempting to force his enemy's hand with minimal effort. Definitely appreciate how effective Moro is as an antagonist, with Saganbo being a useful scapegoat to illustrate those personality traits.
that's not personality that's "i'm evil because i'm evil ..." we already knew that moro was manipulative and he didn't care about his minions the moment he lies and killed Cranberry
it just shows how flat he is as a villain ... doing the same things cell and frieza did before and in a way better
The Undying wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 3:33 pm
Oh, and to be clear, Goku taking the spotlight is absolutely fine. He should be taking the spotlight - this story arc revolves firmly around Goku and Vegeta, not the Earthlings that were introduced haphazardly into the plot a few chapters ago. Having him successfully fend off baddies that other characters struggled with is great; it displays the results of his training by contrasting his performance with that of the secondary heroes, avoids all this useless filler that was so abundant in previous chapters, and shows off new applications of a coveted technique. This should have happened months ago.

I don't care about superfluous "moments", and I don't want to see Toyotaro throwing a bone to fighters that have little to no bearing on the progression and themes of the arc. That's bad storytelling and should stay where it belongs: Toei's scripts. Good on him for trimming the fat.

If the manga keeps this up and does something worthwhile with Vegeta, the arc is at least set to conclude on a high note.
If you don't want unnecessary filler why goku fighting Saganbo, a filler character? that does not contribute anything useful and is pathetic for goku and other warriors z
we do not need to check the power of goku ... gohan makes it clear that he already surpassed it ... just make goku and moro fight in a fucking way

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Sat Mar 21, 2020 9:55 pm

The Undying wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 5:53 pm
It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote:
Sat Mar 21, 2020 5:12 pm
But that's also true of Goku.
Is Luke Skywalker a "side character" because he spent most of his time in Empire Strikes Back training, growing, and preparing for the main conflict?

Is Arya Stark suddenly a "side character" for struggling as a Faceless Man trainee in Braavos for an enormous portion of her entire plotline?

I don't know how to respond to this. It's such a bizarre take on how narrative structure works that I don't think any reader or self-respecting writer is going to use this criteria for what constitutes primary protagonists, or walk away from entire arcs thinking "Yep, this hero's jouney totally wasn't a journey about the hero because he had a sometimes-offscreen training montage!".

This just feels like engaging in mind olympics for the sake of propping up actual side characters.
You don't know how to respond because you have no idea what you're talking about.

Luke wasn't just gaining new super powers in Empire Strikes Back. He was having his entire world view brought in to question by Yoda. And before he runs off to face Vader he's outright warned that he isn't ready for this fight and that Vader will hurt him with much more than mere physical injuries. Luke in Ep 5 is like Vegeta in this arc. While he isn't the character driving the action, he's the one we're seeing grow/change as a person. That adds an emotional subtext to what would otherwise be a straight forward story (although, Luke shares that role with Han who fully complete his character arc in Empire).

And, more importantly, that emotional growth ties right back into the villain of the story. In Vegeta's case he saw Moro mirror his own past actions on Namek and was powerless to stop it. Moro not only rubs Vegeta's evil legacy in his face, he also denies Vegeta the oppurtunity to make amends with past victims. Goku has no such connection. This isn't even analogous to the Freeza Arc where Goku's best friend and son were in danger. Goku does not belong in the spotlight in this specific arc.
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Zamasu55
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Zamasu55 » Sat Mar 21, 2020 11:03 pm

73 and that Shiromekka guy are still around anyway.

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