How to properly watch GT ?

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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by GoodboiRaditz » Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:44 pm

sunsetshimmer wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:40 pm
Matches Malone wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:36 am
sunsetshimmer wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:18 am
How else you'd have Baby Vegeta then ?
Keep Baby in his original body. What does him taking over Vegeta or anyone else's body add or take away from his personality or motives ? It was already established that vegeta's pride is too much for him to be controlled, so if anything it just contradicts the previous arc.
Vegeta's pride didn't have much to do here. Baby was controlling his body from inside, it weren't some mind tricks like Babidi did. Anyway, yeah it wouldn't take anything from his personality, but it would take something from his motives, at least the ones focused on taking revenge on saiyans. I mean would killing Vegeta be more satisfying revenge on his father than taking his son's body and turning him into "Tuffle" to rule over other people including saiyans? Living under someone's absolute control is more cruel than death, especially in DB where dragon balls can just fix anything. Also there's a pretty cool irony here other than using saiyan body despite seeing them as savages (like what Zamasu did with mortals). Baby had genes of king of tuffles, while Vegeta was prince, technically even a king, of saiyans, so Baby Vegeta kinda was both king of tuffles and saiyans. It's pretty cool idea.
So the tuffles were just as evil as the original saiyans based on Baby's character ? he got the cells of the king after all

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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by sunsetshimmer » Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:12 pm

GoodboiRaditz wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:44 pm
sunsetshimmer wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:40 pm
Matches Malone wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:36 am


Keep Baby in his original body. What does him taking over Vegeta or anyone else's body add or take away from his personality or motives ? It was already established that vegeta's pride is too much for him to be controlled, so if anything it just contradicts the previous arc.
Vegeta's pride didn't have much to do here. Baby was controlling his body from inside, it weren't some mind tricks like Babidi did. Anyway, yeah it wouldn't take anything from his personality, but it would take something from his motives, at least the ones focused on taking revenge on saiyans. I mean would killing Vegeta be more satisfying revenge on his father than taking his son's body and turning him into "Tuffle" to rule over other people including saiyans? Living under someone's absolute control is more cruel than death, especially in DB where dragon balls can just fix anything. Also there's a pretty cool irony here other than using saiyan body despite seeing them as savages (like what Zamasu did with mortals). Baby had genes of king of tuffles, while Vegeta was prince, technically even a king, of saiyans, so Baby Vegeta kinda was both king of tuffles and saiyans. It's pretty cool idea.
So the tuffles were just as evil as the original saiyans based on Baby's character ? he got the cells of the king after all
No, i think he mentions that Tuffles were very peaceful race. And he thinks his actions also lead to peace as everyone in universe will be turned into a Tuffle so there won't be any wars as they will be one united race. Also, he knows that being peaceful didn't work before so this time he wants to make sure that there won't by anyone in universe that would betray his race. Of course that's not the right way and it's just hypocrisy, just like Zamasu's actions were. But despite becoming bad, he had a somewhat understanadble reason for that. If he targeted saiyans only then i wouldn't even call him a bad person. His intentions weren't bad (rebuilding his race and providing peace to them), but his actions totally were bad.
"I will concede that your feelings are worthy of the mightiest of Saiyans. However, there is more to my power than just this. Before you die, I will show it to you. This is the difference in power, between the primitive Saiyans and the evolved Tsufruians." ~Baby Vegeta

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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by Vijay » Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:18 pm

GoodboiRaditz wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:44 pm
sunsetshimmer wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:40 pm
Matches Malone wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:36 am


Keep Baby in his original body. What does him taking over Vegeta or anyone else's body add or take away from his personality or motives ? It was already established that vegeta's pride is too much for him to be controlled, so if anything it just contradicts the previous arc.
Vegeta's pride didn't have much to do here. Baby was controlling his body from inside, it weren't some mind tricks like Babidi did. Anyway, yeah it wouldn't take anything from his personality, but it would take something from his motives, at least the ones focused on taking revenge on saiyans. I mean would killing Vegeta be more satisfying revenge on his father than taking his son's body and turning him into "Tuffle" to rule over other people including saiyans? Living under someone's absolute control is more cruel than death, especially in DB where dragon balls can just fix anything. Also there's a pretty cool irony here other than using saiyan body despite seeing them as savages (like what Zamasu did with mortals). Baby had genes of king of tuffles, while Vegeta was prince, technically even a king, of saiyans, so Baby Vegeta kinda was both king of tuffles and saiyans. It's pretty cool idea.
So the tuffles were just as evil as the original saiyans based on Baby's character ? he got the cells of the king after all
Baby unleashed his vengeance on Saiyans that destroyed his homeworld, dats all. Dude was never truly evil as most ppl think of him

But that didn't mean dude wasn't selfish, self-serving (dude slaughtered countless lives & engineered Myuu, Rildo, Luud, MotchiMuthchi, Machine Mutants just to power him up), power-mongering, maniacal (esp as Oozaru Baby) and sly dude who'd go to any extent to accomplish his mission: to avenge his fellow Tuffles

Funny to think, had dude not been a Tuffle...he wud've been a great anti-hero without a doubt. Despite GT being crap series & has tons of writing & tonal inconsistencies, Baby's development were truly some of GT's best moments

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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by ABED » Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:45 pm

Seeking revenge even if it's for an injustice doesn't absolve you of evil.
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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by Kodoshin » Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:46 pm

Back on the subject on the original post I agree with the TC that the series is an absolute pain to watch. It does seem like a drop in "maturity" from a show aimed at 10 year olds to a show aimed at 5 or less in my opinion. One thing that seems to happen anytime people criticize GT though is that someone mentions it's supposed to be more like the original Dragon Ball than Z, and well, yeah that's great and all. I think original Dragon Ball is superior to Z, but GT isn't really that much like original Dragon Ball.

Dragon Ball GT is similar to DB in that the characters are on a quest for the Dragon Balls and that, at least initially, there is less focus on fighting, but it's just pumped so full of fluff and most of the characters aside from the main trio have little screen time and virtually no development.

The praise of the final arc is the most baffling thing to me. It seems like the most lazy, obvious, cliche story idea possible but people enjoy it somehow. To each their own, but I'm not sure how anyone can call that the least bit creative or, especially, good.

I'm gonna stop myself here because I could quite literally go on all day (Don't get me started on how stupid the Super 17 arc made Goku look or how wrongly it represented his fighting style) but I just needed to post my once a decade mini-rant about this series. Thanks for your time.

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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by ABED » Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:02 pm

Kodoshin wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:46 pm
Back on the subject on the original post I agree with the TC that the series is an absolute pain to watch. It does seem like a drop in "maturity" from a show aimed at 10 year olds to a show aimed at 5 or less in my opinion. One thing that seems to happen anytime people criticize GT though is that someone mentions it's supposed to be more like the original Dragon Ball than Z, and well, yeah that's great and all. I think original Dragon Ball is superior to Z, but GT isn't really that much like original Dragon Ball.

Dragon Ball GT is similar to DB in that the characters are on a quest for the Dragon Balls and that, at least initially, there is less focus on fighting, but it's just pumped so full of fluff and most of the characters aside from the main trio have little screen time and virtually no development.

The praise of the final arc is the most baffling thing to me. It seems like the most lazy, obvious, cliche story idea possible but people enjoy it somehow. To each their own, but I'm not sure how anyone can call that the least bit creative or, especially, good.

I'm gonna stop myself here because I could quite literally go on all day (Don't get me started on how stupid the Super 17 arc made Goku look or how wrongly it represented his fighting style) but I just needed to post my once a decade mini-rant about this series. Thanks for your time.
What cliche?

I like that the cast is focused. I don't know how you develop other characters beyond the main trio when for the bulk of the series, they're on Earth. It's really unsatisfying to keep cutting back and forth.

No, please go on about how the Super 17 arc misrepresented his fighting style.

Look, there's something to be said about faulty execution but a lot of the ideas are good.
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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by Matches Malone » Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:17 pm

ABED wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:02 pm
I like that the cast is focused.
I don't think the issue is a focused cast as much as the lack of chemistry between them. Pan more or less doesn't get along with anyone, Trunks has nothing in common with Goku or Pan, and Goku doesn't really work well with them.

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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by Vijay » Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:24 pm

ABED wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:45 pm
Seeking revenge even if it's for an injustice doesn't absolve you of evil.
Diff ppl have diff interpretations. We're talking abt Baby's motivations within context of GT's in-universe discussion. If you're relating to rl scenario, imma out. Cuz I believe in concept of payback.

In Baby's case, Saiyans were barbaric creatures that eradicated original inhabitants of Planet Plant, the Tuffles. Outmatched in strength, escaping was only choice. But meticulous planning to return the favor isn't wrong if you view it from Baby's perspective. The Saiyans may not had seen it coming, but that's not issue here. You reap what you sow. Crimes/genocide committed by ya ancestors have left a trail in the form of Baby & it's a battle for survival.

I'm not even a fan of Baby. It's just the writing of him using Saiyans as a tool to achieve his ultimate goal was done quite well. Only for it to be blown skyhigh as soon as dude becomes Oozaru😏wtf...

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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by ABED » Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:36 pm

Vijay wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:24 pm
ABED wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:45 pm
Seeking revenge even if it's for an injustice doesn't absolve you of evil.
Diff ppl have diff interpretations. We're talking abt Baby's motivations within context of GT's in-universe discussion. If you're relating to rl scenario, imma out. Cuz I believe in concept of payback.

In Baby's case, Saiyans were barbaric creatures that eradicated original inhabitants of Planet Plant, the Tuffles. Outmatched in strength, escaping was only choice. But meticulous planning to return the favor isn't wrong if you view it from Baby's perspective. The Saiyans may not had seen it coming, but that's not issue here. You reap what you sow. Crimes/genocide committed by ya ancestors have left a trail in the form of Baby & it's a battle for survival.

I'm not even a fan of Baby. It's just the writing of him using Saiyans as a tool to achieve his ultimate goal was done quite well. Only for it to be blown skyhigh as soon as dude becomes Oozaru😏wtf...
There's payback and then there's in-discriminant payback. Not to mention, Baby takes away people's choice, so no, his interpretation is not valid. The people of Earth had literally NOTHING to do with the Saiyan/Tsufurian conflict. Goku also had nothing to do with it. Vegeta is the only one who there's some ambiguity. It's not a battle for survival since Baby was the one that instigated the takeover of Earth and plenty of other innocent people.

Yes, his goals are interesting and so are his motives, but that's a separate discussion from "Is he justified?"
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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:42 pm

If I am not mistaken Baby also wanted to conquer the entire universe, which would have surely led to further death and destruction. Not at all what the tuffles would have wanted, since they were not a warmongering race.
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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by sunsetshimmer » Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:54 pm

His actions were not completely justified for sure, but compared to all other villains in franchise, he still has the most justified actions. Most villains do not even justify their actions to begin with and they are evil because they chose it. There was Piccolo who also wanted to take a revenge for his father's dead, but the difference is Piccolo Daimao was evil and was killed in good cause. There was also Zamasu who believed his actions are justified, but they weren't as no one has ever did anything against him and his evil actions came only from his own point of view at mortals as observator. There's no denying Baby was evil, but in his case you could at least understand why he became what he was and do not blame him for everything he has done as big portion of it was consequence of saiyans actions against his race.
"I will concede that your feelings are worthy of the mightiest of Saiyans. However, there is more to my power than just this. Before you die, I will show it to you. This is the difference in power, between the primitive Saiyans and the evolved Tsufruians." ~Baby Vegeta

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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:34 pm

Watch it while drunk and high. :P

But seriously, the singles and Green bricks are good if you really wanna watch and own GT. Maybe the FUNimation streaming service.
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DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
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I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by GoodboiRaditz » Thu Jun 04, 2020 4:17 pm

Kodoshin wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:46 pm
Back on the subject on the original post I agree with the TC that the series is an absolute pain to watch. It does seem like a drop in "maturity" from a show aimed at 10 year olds to a show aimed at 5 or less in my opinion. One thing that seems to happen anytime people criticize GT though is that someone mentions it's supposed to be more like the original Dragon Ball than Z, and well, yeah that's great and all. I think original Dragon Ball is superior to Z, but GT isn't really that much like original Dragon Ball.

Dragon Ball GT is similar to DB in that the characters are on a quest for the Dragon Balls and that, at least initially, there is less focus on fighting, but it's just pumped so full of fluff and most of the characters aside from the main trio have little screen time and virtually no development.

The praise of the final arc is the most baffling thing to me. It seems like the most lazy, obvious, cliche story idea possible but people enjoy it somehow. To each their own, but I'm not sure how anyone can call that the least bit creative or, especially, good.

I'm gonna stop myself here because I could quite literally go on all day (Don't get me started on how stupid the Super 17 arc made Goku look or how wrongly it represented his fighting style) but I just needed to post my once a decade mini-rant about this series. Thanks for your time.
I am watching the 17 arc and i felt what you said about making Goku seems stupid , the entire arc is dumb , it's like a bad fanfiction animated , 17 being made in hell made no sense and that next world and Earth portal idea was just stupid , but once i stopped thinking stuff and turn off my brain it was just 5/10 barely , the baby arc is the est thus far .

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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by JulieYBM » Thu Jun 04, 2020 4:31 pm

There were some odd time-constraints going on with the Super #17 arc. Maekawa Atsushi--the writer of every episode of that arc--wanted to spend more time on Gohan's return to battle and his feelings but didn't have the time. So, like, yeah: the arc sucks but not because a lack of intention or know-how for what would make it better.
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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by WittyUsername » Thu Jun 04, 2020 4:37 pm

Baby was definitely a pretty evil dude. Even ignoring the fact that he brainwashed the people of Earth into becoming his slaves, and planned on doing the same thing to the rest of the universe, he also made it clear that he viewed said slaves as expendable toys. He casually blasted away Gohan, Goten and Trunks simply for being in his way, and when he transformed into a Great Ape, he threatened to destroy the Earth purely for fun.

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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by sunsetshimmer » Thu Jun 04, 2020 4:45 pm

GoodboiRaditz wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 4:17 pm
I am watching the 17 arc and i felt what you said about making Goku seems stupid , the entire arc is dumb , it's like a bad fanfiction animated , 17 being made in hell made no sense and that next world and Earth portal idea was just stupid , but once i stopped thinking stuff and turn off my brain it was just 5/10 barely , the baby arc is the est thus far .
Entire hell thing gets a bit explained in last episode of GT. Still, this arc is pretty disappointing with really dumb plot, although Super 17 was badass imo. And it's very unique arc since despite taking place before next arc, it's next arc what gave it birth, kinda. You will get it once you finish series. Doesn't really save entire arc, but it's still interesting concept for one arc being a result of two previous arcs and next arc as well.
"I will concede that your feelings are worthy of the mightiest of Saiyans. However, there is more to my power than just this. Before you die, I will show it to you. This is the difference in power, between the primitive Saiyans and the evolved Tsufruians." ~Baby Vegeta

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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by MyVisionity » Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:50 pm

ABED wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:36 pm
The people of Earth had literally NOTHING to do with the Saiyan/Tsufurian conflict. Goku also had nothing to do with it. Vegeta is the only one who there's some ambiguity.
Vegeta and Goku are both Saiyans, so they are still connected to the Saiyan/Tsufuru conflict. And Earth is Vegeta and Goku's home, so the people of Earth are connected as well. So it can't really be said that they have absolutely nothing to do with anything. What they might actually deserve or don't deserve is one question, but at least in Baby's eyes they are fair game for his vengeance.

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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by ABED » Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:57 pm

Goku is a Saiyan by birth who has no real connection beyond genetics. He grew up on Earth. Yes in Baby's eyes he was justified, but his logic is flawed. It's little more than a rationalization As for vegeta who knows if he was even born when the Tsufruian were massacred?
Last edited by ABED on Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by WittyUsername » Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:10 pm

The idea that Baby’s conquering of Earth was supposed be a misguided form of revenge against the Saiyans kind of rings hollow when you remember that Baby wanted to infect the entire universe. The simple explanation to Baby’s motives is that he’s a power hungry maniac who just uses the destruction of his planet as an excuse.

Funnily enough, there were one or two lines in the FUNimation dub that seemed to try and paint Baby as more of a well intentioned extremist.

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Re: How to properly watch GT ?

Post by sunsetshimmer » Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:38 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:10 pm
The idea that Baby’s conquering of Earth was supposed be a misguided form of revenge against the Saiyans kind of rings hollow when you remember that Baby wanted to infect the entire universe. The simple explanation to Baby’s motives is that he’s a power hungry maniac who just uses the destruction of his planet as an excuse.

Funnily enough, there were one or two lines in the FUNimation dub that seemed to try and paint Baby as more of a well intentioned extremist.
If it was only an excuse, he would simply kill everyone he saw as a threat or rule over them like Frieza. He wanted to make everyone one united race though (with awfully wrong actions to achieve that of course). Even though he called them servants, he threated them as part of race, not just some slaves. He even said to Trunks (after he was healed from infection) that he is a fool as he could've lived as a Tuffle if he was loyal to him. When he lost control after becoming Oozaru even Goku was disgusted by a fact he attacked Earth despite earthlings being his followers at this time. His reaction wouldn't be the same if it was Frieza killing his people as no one would expect him to feel any sympathy for them, except for his closest soldiers like Ginyu who he actually respected. But in RoF arc, he wiped out his entire army when they started to lose. Afterall, Baby still kept Bulma as his girlfriend and when fighting Uub ordered his people to step back so they won't be killed.
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