Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 27 - DB episode 121-125

[Robo4900]

Hello, ladies, gentlemen, and everyone between and beyond, and welcome to week 27 of the first Dragon Ball rewatch of the decade.
We're doing five episodes a week, and we'll be watching every single episode of Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, and Dragon Ball GT. All 508 episodes. Plus the TV specials and the movies.
I encourage you all to watch in Japanese with subtitles, especially if you have never done so before, but watch along in whichever way brings you the most joy.

The next movie will be the week after next. Then after that, we're on the home stretch of the original Dragon Ball series... Not that DBZ episode 1 feels all that different to DB episode 153.
Still, looking forward to hearing Cha-La Head Cha-La... But I'll miss Makafushigi Adventure.
In any case, the next movie is in just a couple of weeks! Look forward to it!

Previous thread: Week 26 (DB 116-120)
Next thread: Week 28 (DB 126-130)

Anyway, without further ado...

Episode 121 - Son Goku’s Greatest Crisis!!
Dub title: The Biggest Crisis
Originally aired 3rd of August 1988
Episode director: Yoshihiro Ueda
Animation supervisor: Mitsuo Shindo

Goku says that this battle can’t end until one of them is in pieces. Even after Goku receives a leg wound, his power still slightly surpasses Daimaō’s. Growing pale, Daimaō tries to blow Goku and the entire city away with a Bakuriki-Maha, but Goku manages to escape through Tenshinhan’s Bukūjutsu. Daimaō unleashes another Bakuriki-Maha! Goku uses this opening to attack, but due to his leg injury it doesn’t have enough power. Unaffected by the attack, Daimaō blasts Goku at point-blank range!!

Anime-only/filler content: Filler after Daimao is hit with a Kamehameha, Yamucha and co. in the plane, anything with Sno and Hatchan.

Episode 122 - The Final Gamble!!
Dub title: Final Showdown / Goku Dethrones The King!
Originally aired 10th of August 1988
Episode director: Minoru Okazaki
Animation supervisor: Tomekichi Takeuchi

Goku is still alive even after having been directly hit by the Bakuriki-Maha. Startled at this, Daimaō uses the lowly tactic of taking the wounded Tenshinhan hostage. Unable to act, Goku does as Daimaō says and is beaten around. Attempting to deliver the finishing blow, Daimaō attacks from high in the air! But Goku flies up on a Kamehameha, and uses the energy to pierce through Daimaō!! But right before he dies, Daimaō lays a single egg, so that the blood of the Demon Clan will not be eradicated…

Anime-only/filler content: Yajirobe debating if he wants to stay, Yamucha and co. on the ground, anything with Sno.

Episode 123 - The Secret of the Nyoi-Bō
Dub title: Lost and Found / The Search for the Magic Stick
Originally aired 17th of August 1988
Episode director: Yoshihiro Ueda
Animation supervisor: Masayuki Uchiyama

Tenshinhan reunites with Yamcha and the others, who came to check out the situation. Goku has his wounds healed when he visits Karin-sama, and tells him that Daimaō killed Shenlong. Karin-sama is startled to hear this, but suggests that Goku ask God, the creator of the Dragon Balls, to fix things. Goku learns that the Nyoi-Bō is a tool for reaching the palace where God lives. Meanwhile, Daimaō’s reincarnation, Ma Junior, is born from the egg that he laid upon his death…

Anime-only/filler content: More Sno filler, as well as with Chichi and Gyuumao.

Episode 124 - The Temple Above the Clouds
Dub title: Temple Above the Clouds / The Palace above the Clouds
Originally aired 24th of August 1988
Episode director: Mitsuo Hashimoto
Animation supervisor: Ebisawa Yukio

Having brought back the Nyoi-Bō, Goku heads from the summit of Karin Tower towards the palace where God lives. Arriving at the temple once the stretching Nyoi-Bō latches onto it, Goku meets Mister Popo, who says he is God’s attendant. Popo says that he will let Goku meet God if Goku can beat him in a match. But Popo is stronger than he imagined, and toys with Goku like he was nothing. Popo says that Goku won’t be able to meet God with that level of ability. Goku is dumbfounded by Popo’s strength, but…

Anime-only/filler content: Filler at Kame House, Goku ascending through the thunderclouds, Ma-Junior encountering the family in the woods, Mr. Popo swallowing the Kamehameha. (Written by Toshiki Inoue)

Episode 125 - God Appears!!
Dub title: Earth's Guardian Emerges / Lord Kami Reveals Himself
Originally aired 31st of August 1988
Episode director: Minoru Okazaki
Animation supervisor: Minoru Maeda

As Popo tells him to go home, Goku declares that he wants to train at the temple. Seeing Goku’s earnestness, God reveals himself. Goku is startled when he sees God. It turns out that he looks just like Piccolo Daimaō, of all things. God says that Daimaō’s true identity is the portion of evil that he expelled from his own heart long ago. God promises to revive the Dragon Balls, on the condition that Goku stays to train in the Heavenly Realm…

Anime-only/filler content: Kame House filler, Ma-Junior encountering two soldiers in the forest, Goku training with Mr. Popo using Karin's bell. (Written by Yoshiyuki Suga)

-

Interesting trivia:

• Several shots of Daimao's second explosive attack depict bushes and buildings, which should have been destroyed by his first, much larger explosion.
• Episode 121 is the first time since episode 87 that the Funimation and Blue Water dubs both used the same title for an episode. This is in contrast to the early run, where Blue Water tended to basically reuse all Funimation's episode titles. This also reflects the way their scripting changed over the run; the early run had Blue Water basically use Funimation's scripts with some minor corrections, rewordings, and adjustments, but by this point, near the end of the run, Blue Water seem to only be referencing Funimation's scripts a little, mostly rewriting things entirely, to be more faithful to the Japanese version. (Though a few oddities, like "The Magic Stick" in episode 123's title, creep in from time to time, which are borrowed from AB Groupe, who provided Blue Water with their production materials, and had previously produced the French dubs, and the infamous Big Green dub)
• Funimation's dub of Episode 122 has King Piccolo say "I've fought all over the universe and I've never met anyone with the strength to face me in hand-to-hand combat!". This is an obvious contradiction because A) The reveal that Piccolo is an alien hadn't been revealed yet, B) When he DID travel through space, he was the Nameless Namekian, and C) As far as we know, he went straight from Namek to Earth, and didn't leave the planet once he arrived.
  The Blue Water dub does not have this line; it errs closer to the original Japanese intent.
  • Funimation's dub of episode 125 is the first time Shen Long's name is rendered as "Shenron", rather than their translation, "The Eternal Dragon". "Shenron" is henceforth treated as his name, while "Eternal Dragon" is treated more as a descriptor/title.
• While it has been established in his first fight with Goku, Daimao here has red blood, which would later be changed to purple during Z.
• After killing Piccolo, Goku wouldn't take another life until the Boo arc, in episode 223 of Z.
• Bizzarely, Toei considers Episodes 123-126 as the start of the Heavenly Training Arc rather than the aftermath of the Piccolo Daimao Arc. This suggests that they consider the anime filler to be as much a part of the story as the manga material, or that they wanted to pad out the numbers of the Heavenly Training Arc from 6 to 10 episodes.
• Notably, the anime depicts much more of Ma-Junior than the manga does. In the manga we only see him immediately after exiting his egg, while in the anime there are several scenes of him encountering people.
  • Neither explain where he got his robes from.
• Piccolo's egg being found by the old couple is likely a reference to the Japanese fable Momotaro, or Peach Boy, telling the story of a boy born from a peach. I bet you thought it was a Superman reference.
• The title page of Chapter 163 depicts Goku in boxer shorts. This was for a competition where fans could design a new outfit for him. The winner would be revealed in Chapter 173, the irony being that by that time Goku was an adult!
• The moment where Goku bursts into Kame House looking for Nyoi-bo is used at the end of the Cell Arc, when the gang reflect on how much of an oddball Goku was even in his youth.
• The Nyoi-Bo would remain at God's Lookout for the rest of its life, as Goku discards it by this point. The only time it's shown away from its resting place is at the end of GT when Goku holds it in the final shot, although whether this was real or not is debatable.
• Goku climbing the ladder when arriving at Kami's Lookout is the only time in the franchise's history it's actually used. Despite this it'll be depicted in every wide shot of the Lookout in the future, as would Nyoi-Bo.
• Here, we first encounter the more serious problems with the decision in both the dub and the subtitles to render "Kami-sama" as a romanisation, rather than translating it to "God"; even watching subtitled, the conversation where the gang wonder "Could Kami-sama be real?" makes no sense unless you happen to know that Kami-sama means God. You also completely miss the joke of Goku retrieving the Nyoi-Bo then running out the door shouting "BRB, gonna go see God!" There's never a translation note, as far as I can tell. The English dubs obfuscate this further by specifically rendering it as "The Guardian of the Earth", which gives it SOME meaning, but it's kind of a strange, unrelatable, fantasy meaning, as if the characters are discussing an in-universe mythos that the audience isn't privy to.
• In the Funimation dub, when God sees the broken Shen Long model, he disparigingly comments that Mr. Popo hasn't been taking care of it. In the original dialogue it's actually that Shen Long was blasted into multiple pieces by Daimao, the idea being that the model reflects the state of the actual Shen Long.

Episode summaries, airdates, and titles courtesy of Kanzenshuu's episode guide. Filler breakdowns and Dragon Ball logo provided, and trivia co-written, by KBABZ.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

With this we reach the conclusion of the Piccolo Daimao arc, and an exciting conclusion it is because they make it seem as though Goku is all but crippled and defenseless but then reveals his left arm is still unaffected. Fortunate for sure, because that was a huge mistake on Daimao's part and makes it all the more of a "psyche" moment and Piccolo's WTF expression as he stops in his tracks makes it all the more better and funny. Goku's final attack with ramming straight through him is by far one of my personal favorite moments of the original series.

Other notes:

- In terms of the Nyoibo/Power Pole, this is the last we see of it in the series itself until the bit at the end of GT episode 64 though it would also subsequently reappear in DBZ movies 1 and 2 where both Goku and Gohan use it at points in battling against the villains respectively. Of course, given the iffy times in which the movies take place apart from the manga and anime's timeline it is up for interpretation.

- Piccolo Daimao's "All over the universe" thing in the FUNi dub of episode 122 makes no sense, especially considering that the Namekian race and Planet Namek by extension wouldn't be written into the manga by Toriyama for almost a full year at this point then further in the anime and even then the first hints don't come about until the 23rd Budokai during Piccolo Jr and God-disguised-as-Hero/Shen's battle when they speak that weird language later revealed to be Namekian, plus of course as mentioned above with him having once been part of one whole being prior to their splitting apart and the good side becoming God/Kami thus making this impossible to have happened.

[KBABZ]

- In terms of the Nyoibo/Power Pole, this is the last we see of it in the series itself until the bit at the end of GT episode 64 though it would also subsequently reappear in DBZ movies 1 and 2 where both Goku and Gohan use it at points in battling against the villains respectively. Of course, given the iffy times in which the movies take place apart from the manga and anime's timeline it is up for interpretation.

Hey, I do the trivia here and included this!

- Piccolo Daimao's "All over the universe" thing in the FUNi dub of episode 122 makes no sense, especially considering that the Namekian race and Planet Namek by extension wouldn't be written into the manga by Toriyama for almost a full year at this point then further in the anime and even then the first hints don't come about until the 23rd Budokai during Piccolo Jr and God-disguised-as-Hero/Shen's battle when they speak that weird language later revealed to be Namekian, plus of course as mentioned above with him having once been part of one whole being prior to their splitting apart and the good side becoming God/Kami thus making this impossible to have happened.

You've got your timelines crossed. Remember that Funimation dubbed OG-DB in 2001, so that reveal was a DECADE old, and more importantly it was while they were dubbing the Buu arc, five years after the first started dubbing DBZ and this reveal was made in the first place. It's just stupid and disrespectful that they would make a dumb plot-hole like this.

[Robo4900]

With this we reach the conclusion of the Piccolo Daimao arc, and an exciting conclusion it is because they make it seem as though Goku is all but crippled and defenseless but then reveals his left arm is still unaffected. Fortunate for sure, because that was a huge mistake on Daimao's part and makes it all the more of a "psyche" moment and Piccolo's WTF expression as he stops in his tracks makes it all the more better and funny. Goku's final attack with ramming straight through him is by far one of my personal favorite moments of the original series.

Yeah.

And I think it is a fitting end to Piccolo that he gets cocky and doesn't immobilise Goku's right arm.

- In terms of the Nyoibo/Power Pole, this is the last we see of it in the series itself until the bit at the end of GT episode 64 though it would also subsequently reappear in DBZ movies 1 and 2 where both Goku and Gohan use it at points in battling against the villains respectively. Of course, given the iffy times in which the movies take place apart from the manga and anime's timeline it is up for interpretation.

Yep. Noted in the trivia.
It's worth noting, though, that its use in episode 64 of GT may just be symbolic.

Piccolo Daimao's "All over the universe" thing in the FUNi dub of episode 122 makes no sense, especially considering that the Namekian race and Planet Namek by extension wouldn't be written into the manga by Toriyama for almost a full year at this point then further in the anime and even then the first hints don't come about until the 23rd Budokai during Piccolo Jr and God-disguised-as-Hero/Shen's battle when they speak that weird language later revealed to be Namekian, plus of course as mentioned above with him having once been part of one whole being prior to their splitting apart and the good side becoming God/Kami thus making this impossible to have happened.

Indeed. KBABZ and I had a few things to say about that in the trivia.

The thing is, if we take Funi's added line there seriously, then realistically, when could it have happened?
The son of Katatsu left Namek on a ship in peace, to escape a tragedy (IIRC a drought or something?); he goes directly to earth, as far as we know, and then doesn't leave earth once he arrives. At some point, he climbs up Karin tower, then goes up further, to the lookout, and meets the God of the time. The Namekian eventually splits into two, one is Piccolo, who goes down to earth and as far as we know, set his sights on conquering/ruining earth, meanwhile the other half became the new God. Presumably not too long after this, Piccolo is sealed in the rice cooker...

It simply doesn't make sense.
I get that, at this stage, Funi were making some effort to make DB try to feel something like their Z dub, but this was not a good way to go about it.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

The Heavenly Training episodes are another good example of filler, much like the Solo Training material before the 22nd Budokai which i thought expanded the story and did stuff which was only briefly touched upon in the manga and serves as a great transition over to the next tournament and Goku as an adult. It's stuff like this that i feel actually adds to the manga's events already adapted into the other episodes and flows together well with them, unlike a good portion of Z's filler which really feels thrown in and not adding much with exceptions like Gohan's wilderness training.

[MyVisionity]

Episode 121

This must have been a fun episode to record with Nozawa and Aono going back and forth at each other. It's a fun fight to watch. It's also interesting to watch because of the size difference between Goku and Daimao. I imagine fighting in such a way has its advantages and disadvantages.

Piccolo's Bakurikimaha is a cool attack. The pacing is interesting here. Had it been a Z-episode, this probably would have been two episodes, at least.

Episode 122

Piccolo threatening Tenshinhan's life and torturing Goku was both evil and funny. I laughed when he reached down for the rocks!

Goku's final attack is a classic. I like the Oozaru image in the background. Goku punching himself right through Daimao's chest is a fun choice. Piccolo's agony and Goku's joy were done just right.

I always enjoy Piccolo's death scene. It features the return of one of my favorite tracks, "Legend of the Dragon Balls" from the opening of Movie One. I like how it seems that Piccolo giving birth is his body's natural response to his dying, and not a conscious decision. And then after his parting words, he explodes which is a nice touch.

I enjoyed Goku and Tenshinhan laughing together at the end. Those were nice moments between those two.

Episode 123

If I'm not mistaken, the outfits that Bulma and Yamcha start wearing here and for the next few episodes reappear during the Garlic Junior saga.

It's unfortunate that Mandelin leaves "God" untranslated. It really hurts the subtitled dialogue and takes away the meaning. It's too bad for viewers new to the series.

I like the Nyoibo's true purpose being revealed. It's fitting. I'm guessing Toriyama was sick of drawing it.

That scene where Goku rushes into Kame House looking for the Nyoibo while the gang is happy to see him is done just right. It clicks in all the right places. And then they part ways for three years!

I enjoyed the sequence with Goku flying through the city as the public cheers while the theme music plays. Great energy.

Nice sense of foreboding as we see Piccolo 2.0 emerge. He is appropriately menacing. Also, I don't think she's credited but I believe that's Hiromi Tsuru (Bulma) voicing Little Piccolo.

Episode 124

I'm always reminded that this show might be tough to watch for people who are scared of heights or afraid of flying.

The bell that Karin gives Goku as a symbol of approval will also reappear during the Garlic Junior saga. Seems like they rewatched the Daimao saga before doing the Garlic Junior saga.

Good perverted Oolong scene.

It looks like Pansy's Dad from Movie One was living a double life, complete with a secret family!

Goku reaches the temple where we meet God's slave attendant, Mr. Popo.

Episode 125

Lunch: "There was a Daimao, so it wouldn't be strange for there to be a God, too." I imagine that was Toriyama's entire thought process when creating the God character.

I liked the visual effect when Piccolo stops the soldier's bullets with his finger, how it was made up of squares. Watching Little Piccolo's scenes in the woods discovering his powers reminds me of that manga special "In the Name of Piccolo Daimao".

Popo's martial arts philosophies are both interesting and easy to understand. These are good lessons to impart to the children watching.

We finally meet God who turns out to be Piccolo's not-evil twin. He too is voiced by Takeshi Aono.

I believe Toriyama once stated that Piccolo was his favorite character in the series. That makes sense considering that after Piccolo dies he immediately gives birth to another Piccolo. Then a couple episodes later we meet yet another "Piccolo" in the form of God. Then a couple of arcs later we visit an entire planet full of Piccolos! Clearly there must have been something about the character that Toriyama couldn't get enough of.

Whose idea was it to stick Namu in that closing shot?

Funimation's dub of episode 125 is the first time Shen Long's name is rendered as "Shenron", rather than their translation, "The Eternal Dragon". "Shenron" is henceforth treated as his name, while "Eternal Dragon" is treated more as a descriptor/title.

The first time I remember hearing "Shenron" was at the end of Funimation's Cell Saga in 2000, which was before their dub of the first series. Although I suppose within the series' chronology itself, you would be correct.

[ArmenianPepsi]

The Heavenly Training episodes are another good example of filler, much like the Solo Training material before the 22nd Budokai which i thought expanded the story and did stuff which was only briefly touched upon in the manga and serves as a great transition over to the next tournament and Goku as an adult. It's stuff like this that i feel actually adds to the manga's events already adapted into the other episodes and flows together well with them, unlike a good portion of Z's filler which really feels thrown in and not adding much with exceptions like Gohan's wilderness training.

I myself prefer the Heavenly Training episodes over the Solo Training episodes.

With HT, it actually feels like training. Goku is basically put back to square one after Popo totally dismantles all his techniques and mops the floor with him. He is forced to relearn everything from the bottom up in order to reach a new level of martial artist. You spend more time in one location, get to know quite a bit about Popo and Kami who are interesting characters, and it actually feels like Goku progresses. You see him put his nose to the grindstone, and slowly get to see the results of his hard work. Goku before and Goku after HT are in two different leagues.

Don't get me wrong, ST is still entertaining, but to me I feel like the "Training" part of the name doesn't come into play as much. The episodes feel more like random scenarios that Goku just happens to stumble into along his journey. My favorite of the five episodes is 79. The one with Kinkaku and Ginkaku. But the other four aren't as interesting. Goku in the 22nd Budokai is more or less the same from the Baba arc.

Anyways, thanks KBABZ and Robo for the thread as always.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

The Heavenly Training episodes are another good example of filler, much like the Solo Training material before the 22nd Budokai which i thought expanded the story and did stuff which was only briefly touched upon in the manga and serves as a great transition over to the next tournament and Goku as an adult. It's stuff like this that i feel actually adds to the manga's events already adapted into the other episodes and flows together well with them, unlike a good portion of Z's filler which really feels thrown in and not adding much with exceptions like Gohan's wilderness training.

I myself prefer the Heavenly Training episodes over the Solo Training episodes.

With HT, it actually feels like training. Goku is basically put back to square one after Popo totally dismantles all his techniques and mops the floor with him. He is forced to relearn everything from the bottom up in order to reach a new level of martial artist. You spend more time in one location, get to know quite a bit about Popo and Kami who are interesting characters, and it actually feels like Goku progresses. You see him put his nose to the grindstone, and slowly get to see the results of his hard work. Goku before and Goku after HT are in two different leagues.

Don't get me wrong, ST is still entertaining, but to me I feel like the "Training" part of the name doesn't come into play as much. The episodes feel more like random scenarios that Goku just happens to stumble into along his journey. My favorite of the five episodes is 79. The one with Kinkaku and Ginkaku. But the other four aren't as interesting. Goku in the 22nd Budokai is more or less the same from the Baba arc.

Anyways, thanks KBABZ and Robo for the thread as always.

Yeah, Goku's training at Kami/God's place with Mr. Popo is the better of the two and works more as a training arc because it really increased him tenfold in strength and did more in terms of bridging the gap from between the end of the Piccolo Daimao arc and the start of the 23rd Budokai where he is now full grown.

[Robo4900]

It's unfortunate that Mandelin leaves "God" untranslated. It really hurts the subtitled dialogue and takes away the meaning. It's too bad for viewers new to the series.

Funnily enough, this one is likely Steve Simmons' fault!!

Mandelin did write the subs for DB, but he was beholden to any and all pre-established naming conventions that Simmons may have set out in Z and the movies at this point. And unfortunately, Simmons had rendered God's name as "Kami-sama", so Mandelin had to keep it.

Goku reaches the temple where we meet God's slave attendant, Mr. Popo.

I briefly considered writing up a little blurb in the trivia about Japan's unique position as far as racial sensitivity is concerned... But I'm not even remotely the right person to do that writeup, so I'm just going to assume that we all collectively understand that, while Popo is definitely an uncomfortable, racist piece of imagery (made even worse by the broken way he speaks in Japanese, and thus in the subs too), there was no ill intent behind it originally, just ignorance... Doesn't make it okay, but it makes it just slightly more tolerable as a viewer to know that there's no malice intended here.

Let's all collectively hope that when Toei inevitably reboot Dragon Ball with a new, young voice cast in a couple of decades, they change Popo out for something less racist.

Popo's martial arts philosophies are both interesting and easy to understand. These are good lessons to impart to the children watching.

Yeah. I find this is the case with a lot of the martial arts in the show; there are great lessons for kids to learn about patience, living well, etc.

Funimation's dub of episode 125 is the first time Shen Long's name is rendered as "Shenron", rather than their translation, "The Eternal Dragon". "Shenron" is henceforth treated as his name, while "Eternal Dragon" is treated more as a descriptor/title.

The first time I remember hearing "Shenron" was at the end of Funimation's Cell Saga in 2000, which was before their dub of the first series. Although I suppose within the series' chronology itself, you would be correct.

I believe that is what he was going for, yes.

If you can remember which episode specifically Funi's first mention in Z was, though, I can make a note of it for trivia when we get there in Z.

I myself prefer the Heavenly Training episodes over the Solo Training episodes.
[...]

Personally, I like both. I like how Solo Training has Goku basically go on a bunch of fun standalone adventures, but Heavenly Training is also great for the reasons you say... IDK. I like both.

Anyways, thanks KBABZ and Robo for the thread as always.

My pleasure.

[MyVisionity]

I like how God's background mirrors Goku's, with him having been a martial artist who sought out the previous God. It's interesting to imagine what his life had been like prior to his ascent. Also interesting that God chooses Goku to succeed him later on.

[*]Notably, the anime depicts much more of Ma-Junior than the manga does. In the manga we only see him immediately after exiting his egg, while in the anime there are several scenes of him encountering people.

• Neither explain where he got his robes from.

My guess would be that Ma Junior conjured up the outfit himself, as a result of his Mazoku/Namekian abilities.

I briefly considered writing up a little blurb in the trivia about Japan's unique position as far as racial sensitivity is concerned... But I'm not even remotely the right person to do that writeup, so I'm just going to assume that we all collectively understand that, while Popo is definitely an uncomfortable, racist piece of imagery (made even worse by the broken way he speaks in Japanese, and thus in the subs too), there was no ill intent behind it originally, just ignorance... Doesn't make it okay, but it makes it just slightly more tolerable as a viewer to know that there's no malice intended here.

I understand what you mean, although I'm not as willing to give Japan or Toriyama the benefit of the doubt on this one. That aside, I think that the racist imagery of the character far outweighs any one person's intentions, good or bad. And while some may be willing or able to tolerate the racism, I imagine that there are many viewers out there who would have a much different and much stronger reaction to the character than one might expect.

For anyone interested, there is a Twitter thread I read some time ago that covers just a little bit of Popo's racist connections.
https://mobile.twitter.com/pspiq3/statu ... 6496812038

If you can remember which episode specifically Funi's first mention in Z was, though, I can make a note of it for trivia when we get there in Z.

The episode I recall is 192. Yamcha says "Shenron" just after they summon him. To be fair, it is possible that it may have been used earlier and I forgot, however that moment stuck in my mind because I remember being a bit surprised that they used that name.

[KBABZ]

[*]Notably, the anime depicts much more of Ma-Junior than the manga does. In the manga we only see him immediately after exiting his egg, while in the anime there are several scenes of him encountering people.

• Neither explain where he got his robes from.

My guess would be that Ma Junior conjured up the outfit himself, as a result of his Mazoku/Namekian abilities.

That's plausible given that he makes some for Gohan later. Huh, Ma-Junior's very first spell!

[Robo4900]

My guess would be that Ma Junior conjured up the outfit himself, as a result of his Mazoku/Namekian abilities.

That's plausible given that he makes some for Gohan later. Huh, Ma-Junior's very first spell!

Indeed! I didn't think of that!

If you can remember which episode specifically Funi's first mention in Z was, though, I can make a note of it for trivia when we get there in Z.

The episode I recall is 192. Yamcha says "Shenron" just after they summon him. To be fair, it is possible that it may have been used earlier and I forgot, however that moment stuck in my mind because I remember being a bit surprised that they used that name.

Alright, I'll make a note of that for later.

I understand what you mean, although I'm not as willing to give Japan or Toriyama the benefit of the doubt on this one. That aside, I think that the racist imagery of the character far outweighs any one person's intentions, good or bad. And while some may be willing or able to tolerate the racism, I imagine that there are many viewers out there who would have a much different and much stronger reaction to the character than one might expect.

For anyone interested, there is a Twitter thread I read some time ago that covers just a little bit of Popo's racist connections.
https://mobile.twitter.com/pspiq3/statu ... 6496812038

That's fair.

And fwiw, I'm not trying to justify racism, in case anyone feels that needs to be said; Popo is, and always was, a bad idea. I do think it would be nice if there were blurbs about cultural context on the DVDs, though, much like you get on DVDs of old western cartoons that have some racist content; the kind that doesn't try to justify the racism, because it was always wrong, people were just less aware of how wrong it was at the time (or just didn't care, in several cases), but that takes the opportunity to acknowledge that it is wrong, but that censoring it, and retroactively making your own history look a little more convenient from a modern point of view, is silly, and it's better to learn from history, than to pretend it didn't happen. And if you're gonna see something that has some racist content in it, there should at least be a learning opportunity from it. Maybe a kid or teenager somewhere sees it and becomes more aware of the presence of casual racism in some otherwise-seemingly-innocent art. And I dunno, maybe by acknowledging it, and recognising that it's wrong and uncomfortable, we're not just glossing over it, and maybe that's more okay than just refusing to acknowledge it.

Though, talking about the historical context feels less important when Toriyama and Toei are still using Popo in Super to this day. As you note, whether the intentions are good or bad, the imagery is there, and it ain't good!!...

Frankly, I'm surprised there hasn't been a big kerfuffle about Popo's design in the west at any point (or, if there has, I've not heard anything of it other than the occasional remark by someone from TeamFourStar in a behind the scenes feature or something). I know the CW4Kids edit of Kai made Popo's skin blue, but surely something similar should have been applied to the general TV edit too?... It's weird how little this gets talked about.
I guess it's hard to acknowledge something deeply problematic about something you love, so a lot of people just don't think/talk about it, a lot of the time, and because there's not really any backlash, Toei/Toriyama don't consider making things better. See also: Oolong attempting to sexually assault Bulma in episode 6, those Red Ribbon soldiers attempting to sexually assault her at one point, Roshi's various perverted antics involving her, Lunch, and various others up to and including in the most recent arc of Super, in which there was a "comedy" scene revolving around Roshi being implied to be attempting to rape a girl. I do not understand how anyone at Toei could have possibly thought that was okay to do, at any time period, and this aired... Four years ago, was it?

IDK. I feel Popo being a bad, uncomfortable thing in Dragon Ball is something that should be acknowledged, but I don't think I'm qualified to delve into this much further than "Racism is bad, and Dragon Ball still struggles with problematic elements to this day, which it really shouldn't have ever had in the first place. And that sucks."

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

Spoiler:

My guess would be that Ma Junior conjured up the outfit himself, as a result of his Mazoku/Namekian abilities.

That's plausible given that he makes some for Gohan later. Huh, Ma-Junior's very first spell!

Indeed! I didn't think of that!

If you can remember which episode specifically Funi's first mention in Z was, though, I can make a note of it for trivia when we get there in Z.

The episode I recall is 192. Yamcha says "Shenron" just after they summon him. To be fair, it is possible that it may have been used earlier and I forgot, however that moment stuck in my mind because I remember being a bit surprised that they used that name.

Alright, I'll make a note of that for later.

I understand what you mean, although I'm not as willing to give Japan or Toriyama the benefit of the doubt on this one. That aside, I think that the racist imagery of the character far outweighs any one person's intentions, good or bad. And while some may be willing or able to tolerate the racism, I imagine that there are many viewers out there who would have a much different and much stronger reaction to the character than one might expect.

For anyone interested, there is a Twitter thread I read some time ago that covers just a little bit of Popo's racist connections.
https://mobile.twitter.com/pspiq3/statu ... 6496812038

That's fair.

And fwiw, I'm not trying to justify racism, in case anyone feels that needs to be said; Popo is, and always was, a bad idea. I do think it would be nice if there were blurbs about cultural context on the DVDs, though, much like you get on DVDs of old western cartoons that have some racist content; the kind that doesn't try to justify the racism, because it was always wrong, people were just less aware of how wrong it was at the time (or just didn't care, in several cases), but that takes the opportunity to acknowledge that it is wrong, but that censoring it, and retroactively making your own history look a little more convenient from a modern point of view, is silly, and it's better to learn from history, than to pretend it didn't happen. And if you're gonna see something that has some racist content in it, there should at least be a learning opportunity from it. Maybe a kid or teenager somewhere sees it and becomes more aware of the presence of casual racism in some otherwise-seemingly-innocent art. And I dunno, maybe by acknowledging it, and recognising that it's wrong and uncomfortable, we're not just glossing over it, and maybe that's more okay than just refusing to acknowledge it.

Though, talking about the historical context feels less important when Toriyama and Toei are still using Popo in Super to this day. As you note, whether the intentions are good or bad, the imagery is there, and it ain't good!!...

Frankly, I'm surprised there hasn't been a big kerfuffle about Popo's design in the west at any point (or, if there has, I've not heard anything of it other than the occasional remark by someone from TeamFourStar in a behind the scenes feature or something). I know the CW4Kids edit of Kai made Popo's skin blue, but surely something similar should have been applied to the general TV edit too?... It's weird how little this gets talked about.
I guess it's hard to acknowledge something deeply problematic about something you love, so a lot of people just don't think/talk about it, a lot of the time, and because there's not really any backlash, Toei/Toriyama don't consider making things better. See also: Oolong attempting to sexually assault Bulma in episode 6, those Red Ribbon soldiers attempting to sexually assault her at one point, Roshi's various perverted antics involving her, Lunch, and various others up to and including in the most recent arc of Super, in which there was a "comedy" scene revolving around Roshi being implied to be attempting to rape a girl. I do not understand how anyone at Toei could have possibly thought that was okay to do, at any time period, and this aired... Four years ago, was it?

IDK. I feel Popo being a bad, uncomfortable thing in Dragon Ball is something that should be acknowledged, but I don't think I'm qualified to delve into this much further than "Racism is bad, and Dragon Ball still struggles with problematic elements to this day, which it really shouldn't have ever had in the first place. And that sucks."

The thing with Mr. Popo's design sort of reminds me of the similar unfortunate implications in hindsight of Jynx's original design in Pokemon, although in that case there actually was a fairly significant stink made about it to where they went back and retroactively recolored her in older episodes to a shade of purple and over here the episodes that have Jynx appear stripped out from re releases in recent years of the Indigo League and Orange Islands DVD sets effectively in an "out of sight" fashion by TPCI.

[ArmenianPepsi]

I briefly considered writing up a little blurb in the trivia about Japan's unique position as far as racial sensitivity is concerned... But I'm not even remotely the right person to do that writeup, so I'm just going to assume that we all collectively understand that, while Popo is definitely an uncomfortable, racist piece of imagery (made even worse by the broken way he speaks in Japanese, and thus in the subs too), there was no ill intent behind it originally, just ignorance... Doesn't make it okay, but it makes it just slightly more tolerable as a viewer to know that there's no malice intended here.

Let's all collectively hope that when Toei inevitably reboot Dragon Ball with a new, young voice cast in a couple of decades, they change Popo out for something less racist.

Perhaps with the same breath we talk about Popo's, let's say, unfortunate design and character, we could also remember that earlier on General Blue was a not so subtle jab at the expense of homosexual men. Depicted as semi flamboyant at times, feminine in the way he is concerned about his looks, how he gets overly emotional over the nose bleed Krillin gives him in battle, the way he's put off by Bulma's attempt at seduction, etc.

Hell Krillin and Bulma basically spell it out with their confrontation with him in the pirate's cave, and it's not like they have Blue say anything to object when Krillin says stuff like "So come at me already, you flaming homo" , or Bulma says "Crap! I forgot this guy's gay!"

[KBABZ]

There's also General Black who is a classic blackface character design long before Mr. Popo came onto the scene. At least Black was a competent character with power and initiative at the end of the story; Popo is Kami's slave assistant.

[ArmenianPepsi]

This may not be 100% on topic but I come with good news, I have gotten a friend of mine into Dragon Ball a couple of days ago, and he's enjoying it just as much as I am

[Robo4900]

This may not be 100% on topic but I come with good news, I have gotten a friend of mine into Dragon Ball a couple of days ago, and he's enjoying it just as much as I am

Yay!

Always nice to hear about new fans being welcomed into the fold. (Especially if they're introduced the correct way, starting at the beginning)

[ArmenianPepsi]

This may not be 100% on topic but I come with good news, I have gotten a friend of mine into Dragon Ball a couple of days ago, and he's enjoying it just as much as I am

Yay!

Always nice to hear about new fans being welcomed into the fold. (Especially if they're introduced the correct way, starting at the beginning)

I did my best to set them in the right direction. Giving them the kind of advice you, KBABZ, and Matches Malone gave to me. My approach went like "As long as you start with OG DB, it's hard to go wrong. Feel out and find whatever flavors of the series works best with you, and roll with it. Sub or dub. DB + Z +GT. DB + Kai + Super. Etc."

[KBABZ]

This may not be 100% on topic but I come with good news, I have gotten a friend of mine into Dragon Ball a couple of days ago, and he's enjoying it just as much as I am

Yay!

Always nice to hear about new fans being welcomed into the fold. (Especially if they're introduced the correct way, starting at the beginning)

I did my best to set them in the right direction. Giving them the kind of advice you, KBABZ, and Matches Malone gave to me. My approach went like "As long as you start with OG DB, it's hard to go wrong. Feel out and find whatever flavors of the series works best with you, and roll with it. Sub or dub. DB + Z +GT. DB + Kai + Super. Etc."

Well, I wouldn't go that far simply because Z is its own particular beast thanks to how that dub was bad then and is worse today.

• If you're watching in Japanese, then Z is the way to go. The Japanese VAs are in their prime and give the performances of their lives, and you get the original Kikuchi score.
• If you're watching in English, Kai + The Final Chapters is your selection. They're working on a MUCH improved (if still not perfect) script, and the music still connected to Dragon Ball if you watch Kikuchi Kai.

The decision on GT vs Super can be decided on if they want to stick with classic material, or move on to more modern tales. BOTH can also be achieved by watching Super and then GT, since Super is before EoZ after all (but this comes with the understanding that GT doesn't work with Super in many places).

[Robo4900]

Well, I'm enjoying these episodes immensely. Piccolo's defeat is brilliant, and I love the feeling of "WE SURVIVED!!" after he dies.

But, fun thing I noticed in episode 123: Right at the end, we see shots from Goku's POV as he's flying around on Kinto Un; these shots are reused from episode 14.