Does anyone else feel that much of the DB fandom enforces low standards?

[kemuri07]

Oh yes it is. Check out Chapter 173 on Kanzenshuu. https://www.kanzenshuu.com/manga/chp-173/

I had no idea it was official, much less from Toriyama himself. I'd love to get something like that.

I have that nifty DB cover art collection, and there are plenty of neat costumes that Toriyama puts Goku and crew in.

[UI Peter]

https://journal.transformativeworks.org ... ew/243/205

Paula Smith talks about how she coined and spread the term while dunking on teen Trek fangirls while she was a 20-something grad student.

The origin is literally "LOL, these dumb girls are just writing themselves into their shitty fan fics lulz lets make fun of them".

So mocking bad writing and dumb fans is sexist now smh?

When it's predominantly high school girls that are the focus of the original punch-down? Yeah. When the term is now predominantly only applied to female characters now? Yeah.

Hate to break it to you Peter but women can be shitty towards women, too.

And men are shitty towards men everyday, yet no one considers it misandry.....

You're still falsely assuming that those girls are getting shit now just for being female smh.

Here's a reality check Julie, sometimes people get treated like shit because they deserve it, like hilariously bad writers lol.

[kemuri07]

So mocking bad writing and dumb fans is sexist now smh?

When it's predominantly high school girls that are the focus of the original punch-down? Yeah. When the term is now predominantly only applied to female characters now? Yeah.

Hate to break it to you Peter but women can be shitty towards women, too.

And men are shitty towards men everyday, yet no one considers it misandry.....

You're still falsely assuming that those girls are getting shit now just for being female smh.

Here's a reality check Julie, sometimes people get treated like shit because they deserve it, like hilariously bad writers lol.

context. context. context. Context is always important because it makes all of the difrerence.

As in: are your criticisms directed at the work, or the writer themselves?

[UI Peter]

I think Toei/Toyotaro/Toriyama/whoever wants to keep things as safe and familiar as possible, which is why none of the child characters are allowed to age. It’s the same thing with Marron, who still looks like a toddler, even though she should be older than Goten and Trunks were during the Boo saga.

Forget about actual character design changes, we can't even get a simple outfit change for Goku and Vegeta. Changes to the characters outfits and appearances was one of the best things about the original manga, yet somehow they left that behind.

One of the things I liked about the OG Manga & Z was that we would get new character designs and/or outfits for each character per saga. It helps show the passing of time and may even show character development (like how many point out how throughout Z Vegeta wears less and less Saiyan armor as the series goes on to the point of not wearing any Saiyan clothes at all by the end of Z & in GT, showing him adapting to life on Earth).

[Magnificent Ponta]

Spoiler:

This isn't official is it ?

Oh yes it is. Check out Chapter 173 on Kanzenshuu. https://www.kanzenshuu.com/manga/chp-173/

I can't cite sources on this, but isn't this a fan design that won a contest, and that's why Toriyama drew it here? (EDIT: The Manga Costumes Thread also says this, and there's another dedicated thread about the competition, so I'm running with it...)

That said, I'd love to see some sort of End-of-Z/GT-period scene where adult Goten picks this out of some dusty corner in Goku's closet and thinks it's cool enough to wear - I'd love to see a reference like that.

[JulieYBM]

So mocking bad writing and dumb fans is sexist now smh?

When it's predominantly high school girls that are the focus of the original punch-down? Yeah. When the term is now predominantly only applied to female characters now? Yeah.

Hate to break it to you Peter but women can be shitty towards women, too.

And men are shitty towards men everyday, yet no one considers it misandry.....

You're still falsely assuming that those girls are getting shit now just for being female smh.

Here's a reality check Julie, sometimes people get treated like shit because they deserve it, like hilariously bad writers lol.

Hate to break it to you Peter but bullying teen girls and grown women out of fandom spaces because they're goofballs and you're a #SeriousFan is actually really shitty.

[LoganForkHands73]

I can't cite sources on this, but isn't this a fan design that won a contest, and that's why Toriyama drew it here? (EDIT: The Manga Costumes Thread also says this, and there's another dedicated thread about the competition, so I'm running with it...)

That said, I'd love to see some sort of End-of-Z/GT-period scene where adult Goten picks this out of some dusty corner in Goku's closet and thinks it's cool enough to wear - I'd love to see a reference like that.

Ah, nice piece of trivia, I never knew that! It did always strike me as odd because whenever Toriyama draws cover art that puts Goku and the gang in new clothes that never show up in the stories themselves, they're usually placed in totally different contexts (e.g. Goku and Bulma in khaki fatigues piloting an army tank, Gohan driving a F1 car) just for fun. But to make such a cool, elaborate redesign with no wacky non-DB backdrop just for a cover always felt strange, so now it makes more sense.

I always saw this costume as more regal than Goku's other gi, fitting since he'd been training under literal God at this point in the series. It makes sense that Kami or Mr. Popo would give him something a bit more stylish. I love the contrasting orange and brown, that's definitely the most striking thing about it. Considering that Goku's training under Whis now, a fashionista himself, there can hardly be a more fitting time to bring it back. Goten wearing it would be cool too, especially since he grows up to be the swaglord of the Son clan, lol.

[Skar]

I think Toei/Toyotaro/Toriyama/whoever wants to keep things as safe and familiar as possible, which is why none of the child characters are allowed to age. It’s the same thing with Marron, who still looks like a toddler, even though she should be older than Goten and Trunks were during the Boo saga.

Yeah that seems to be the case. I'm glad there's still a minor passage of time and it didn't become like some anime that don't have any characters age and stuck in the same year until the end of the series. What I loved about DB was seeing the characters grow and develop over several years. DBS is a little different since it's a midquel but time still moves forward slowly. Pan and Bra were born and look a little older with each arc. We're also getting closed and closer to the EoZ. I assume Goten, Trunks, and Marron will probably look the same until that final timeskip to EoZ though.

[Matches Malone]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vxm_QdQ ... =emb_title

This is what Super could've looked like if the dragon ball community had...I'm not even going to say high standers at this points, just any standards. This anime is from the same studio, Toei, and if I'm not mistaking some of the same people who worked on Super. Unlike DB however, other anime communities (generally speaking of course) don't accept, support, and defend...I want to keep things civil, so I'll just say low quality products. This is why Toei gave the team behind Dragon Quest the time and resources they needed to put out a respectable looking and animated product. With that said, I'm sure there are people here who will say Super looked just as good, if not better than DQ, which will just prove my point about how low our standards have fallen.

[ABED]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vxm_QdQ ... =emb_title

This is what Super could've looked like if the dragon ball community had...I'm not even going to say high standers at this points, just any standards. This anime is from the same studio, Toei, and if I'm not mistaking some of the same people who worked on Super. Unlike DB however, other anime communities (generally speaking of course) don't accept, support, and defend...I want to keep things civil, so I'll just say low quality products. This is why Toei gave the team behind Dragon Quest the time and resources they needed to put out a respectable looking and animated product. With that said, I'm sure there are people here who will say Super looked just as good, if not better than DQ, which will just prove my point about how low our standards have fallen.

DB has always been a cheaply produced anime. The time they put in a lot of time and resources gave us DBS: Broly. Looks fine but the story was garbage.

[Matches Malone]

DB has always been a cheaply produced anime.

The time they put in a lot of time and resources gave us DBS: Broly.

DB has had issues in the past, I won't deny that, but never as many or as bad as what it had in Super. All you have to do is look at the pre-production time it got, which was 3 months or even less. DB, Z, GT got the average 6 months time, which is basically what every anime gets. When it comes to Z, keep in mind that alongside the anime, they were working on 2 movies per year, with 2 years including the Bardock and Trunks specials on top of that. They at least had a reason for why it looked off during certain parts.

I'm not expecting anything to look like Broly, I just want it to look like any other Shonen made today, including those made by Toei. Why this is such a high request for DB fans to accept is something I'll never understand. It's very unfortunate that we're to the point where all it takes to make us happy is the Dragon Ball name put on something, regardless of how bad it is.

[ABED]

the show had far bigger issues than the lead time.

[Skar]

With that said, I'm sure there are people here who will say Super looked just as good, if not better than DQ, which will just prove my point about how low our standards have fallen.

Luckily, I think it's only a small part of the fan base that's willing to accept or defend anything. Based on what AnimeAjay posted, Toei is definitely trying to improve it and this wasn't the quality they were striving for at least compared most of the recent anime they've worked on.

I hope more production time will also improve the writing. If they have more time to plan, maybe they would have the anime that takes its timeslot prepared so they wouldn't need to make the next DBS anime as long. It was 131 episodes to adapt two screenplays and three outlines that may have been shorter based on what we know Toriyama wrote. DB took 153 episodes to adapt almost the first 200 chapters of the manga and that was with additional filler. DBZ covered over 300 chapters but suffered from too much filler. That was a different time back then since the vast majority of anime adapting an ongoing manga now are seasonal.

Every seasonal anime I've seen covers several volumes in one or two cours with good pacing so I definitely don't think Toei needs that many episodes to cover Toriyama's short outlines. Better planning might allow for more time to be spent with Toriyama completing the outline with only what's necessary. They could be more concise stories closer to how he envisions them with fewer writers. It wouldn't fix everything since a lot of the issues come from it being a series that had already ended but an improvement if it's going to continue a while longer.

[goku the krump dancer]

Fans dont dictate budget and effort from big companies like Toei, hell even for smaller Indi Companies, fan feedback plays probably the smallest part in the production of a product.

So whether fans have low standards or not when it comes to animation qualit, that's not go gonna stop Toei from doing what they want, how they please.

[Matches Malone]

Based on what AnimeAjay posted, Toei is definitely trying to improve it and this wasn't the quality they were striving for at least compared most of the recent anime they've worked on. I hope more production time will also improve the writing. If they have more time to plan, maybe they would have the anime that takes its time slot prepared so they wouldn't need to make the next DBS anime as long.

Whatever Toei did behind the scenes, it seems to have worked. If DB is allowed the same time, talent, and resources, then whatever issues Super had will be gone, at least production wise. When it comes to the writing, I expect the extra time will allow the writers to prevent things like Vegeta saying he's out of power in one episode, only to be in full power the very next. If this is Toei's strategy moving forward, then DB has a very bright future on TV if it ever returns.

Whether fans have low standards or not when it comes to animation quality, that's not go gonna stop Toei from doing what they want, how they please.

Of course not, but it's annoying constantly being told that you're expecting too much when you've got basically every other show doing things better.

[Magnificent Ponta]

I do feel sorry for the frustration felt by the staff who worked on Super - feeling like you botched the modern iteration of a global icon in your industry (as some of them surely must, irrespective of whatever the facts of the case may be) must really sting.

[Matches Malone]

I do feel sorry for the frustration felt by the staff who worked on Super - feeling like you botched the modern iteration of a global icon in your industry must really sting.

The staff aren't to blame at all, it's the higher up at Toei who rushed it into production. Based on what we know from behind the scenes, I give the staff major credit for putting out a product as good as they did. Being able to work under such circumstances and still pull it off shows just how talented they were.

[ABED]

Isn't Toei's business model all about cheap content? They are essentially fast food.

[Skar]

Isn't Toei's business model all about cheap content? They are essentially fast food.

They are varying degrees of cheap though. One of Toei's animators talked about the low quality of the anime for the first few arcs due to lack of preparation. It was also said that Toriyama complained about the quality of the anime which he probably wouldn't have done if that was their usual standard. It might be cheap in comparison to the highest quality anime in the industry but Toei's own usual standard for most of their recent anime would still be an improvement.

[ABED]

Isn't Toei's business model all about cheap content? They are essentially fast food.

They are varying degrees of cheap though. One of Toei's animators talked about the low quality of the anime for the first few arcs due to lack of preparation. It was also said that Toriyama complained about the quality of the anime which he probably wouldn't have done if that was their usual standard. It might be cheap in comparison to the highest quality anime in the industry but Toei's own usual standard for most of their recent anime would still be an improvement.

They do episodes year round often for years on end. Look at Super Sentai. It's inherently cheap. Even with greater lead time, that's still an ambitious schedule.