Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Magnificent Ponta]

I've stated repeatedly, the statement on Beerus and Broly is inconclusively left open.

I know what you've said about the statement - but that isn't what I just asked you. Please address that.

[Miracles]

I've stated repeatedly, the statement on Beerus and Broly is inconclusively left open.

I know what you've said about the statement - but that isn't what I just asked you. Please address that.

I stay within canon. That's all you are going to continue to get, canon.

[Magnificent Ponta]

I've stated repeatedly, the statement on Beerus and Broly is inconclusively left open.

I know what you've said about the statement - but that isn't what I just asked you. Please address that.

I stay within canon. That's all you are going to continue to get, canon.

Then to be completely clear and direct, if I may - are you saying that you personally have no position on whether Beerus is actually stronger than Broly?

[Miracles]

I know what you've said about the statement - but that isn't what I just asked you. Please address that.

I stay within canon. That's all you are going to continue to get, canon.

Then to be completely clear and direct, if I may - are you saying that you personally have no position on whether Beerus is actually stronger than Broly?

That's correct.

[Magnificent Ponta]

I stay within canon. That's all you are going to continue to get, canon.

Then to be completely clear and direct, if I may - are you saying that you personally have no position on whether Beerus is actually stronger than Broly?

That's correct.

Well, I have to be honest - this has been a very peculiar discussion indeed. But thank you for your time, all the same.

[Skar]

Then to be completely clear and direct, if I may - are you saying that you personally have no position on whether Beerus is actually stronger than Broly?

That's correct.

Honestly that would've saved a lot of time and several pages of back and forth if you clarified that from the beginning .

[Hugo Boss]

Honestly, I have no problem with considering Goku’s statement as evidence. But still, quite a bunch of people in the fanbase only see it as an educated guess, myself included. Obviously, Goku wouldn’t say it if he hadn’t any idea of Beerus’ strength, but his assessment can be easily disputed. He never saw Beerus fighting at 100%, right? History tells that Goku has made mistakes on strength comparisons (check Perfect Cell and Dabra examples), exactly because of not having full knowledge of the situation. This scenario of Goku and Beerus facing off again has been forashadowed for quite some time and almost every time he sees Goku using Ultra Instinct there is an internal conflict. It’s like he is seeing that fight happening in his heart.

[TheQuestioner]

In DB durability is power since it is backed by Ki level. It's called balance.

That is a misconception. Ki level alone does not determine the stats of someone, the body type does too. Broly has been shown to endure attacks far stronger than him consistently against Vegeta and Goku and it is not a new concept by any stretch either since characters such as Frieza have proven otherwise. Even in the BROLY movie Base Goku took hits from Ikari Broly.

[Miracles]

In DB durability is power since it is backed by Ki level. It's called balance.

That is a misconception. Ki level alone does not determine the stats of someone, the body type does too. Broly has been shown to endure attacks far stronger than him consistently against Vegeta and Goku and it is not a new concept by any stretch either since characters such as Frieza have proven otherwise. Even in the BROLY movie Base Goku took hits from Ikari Broly.

What is the key to winning in battle?

Akira Toriyama:In battle, the most important thing is the size of your ki, and your control over it. Ki as a concept of course includes such spiritual powers as energy [genki], courage [yūki], and right-mindedness [shōki]11. No matter how much you train, there are limits to physical strength, and the only way to overcome that is through ki. I think Goku was able to approach the mightiest warriors in the universe through strengthening his ki.

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... agon-ball/

[Dragon Ball Daisuki]

Usually that is the case, but there are exceptions to the rule. Generally an opponent that is especially durable is also especially powerful compared to the protagonist (ruling out those with certain physical attributes like Botamo, Magetta, and Majin Boo) but there are exceptions - recently Goku commented on Saganbo being exceptionally “sturdy” which seems to imply he is taking harder hits than he “should” be able to. I could see Broly being in the same camp.

The way I see the “strength and ki” statement is kind of like a “push/pull” statement - almost like one picks up where the other leaves off. Once you hit a limit with physical training, you can only continue to strengthen yourself by raising your ki. But once you hit the ceiling for your ki, your physical ceiling is raised, and you have to find that new limit before you can increase your ki again.

For example, Goku’s maximum (safe) ki output was twice his base as a result of training in 10Gs, while his limit was 10x his base after training in 100Gs. There seems to be a correlation here - Goku can employ a 10-fold Kaioken after conditioning his body with 10x his previous physical maximum.

Likewise, afterwards beefing up SSJ by pumping more ki into your body eventually hits a limit where the supplementary power creates a net loss, and at that point physical training takes over once again by conditioning the body to the power of SSJ itself. Once you achieve that, your ki limit is raised and can take on the ki increase of SSJ2.

Continuing into Super, you got the shiny new God forms, but after a certain point you can only improve by conditioning your body to contain the full power of SSB. Just a little idea I’ve been workshopping.

[TheQuestioner]

In DB durability is power since it is backed by Ki level. It's called balance.

That is a misconception. Ki level alone does not determine the stats of someone, the body type does too. Broly has been shown to endure attacks far stronger than him consistently against Vegeta and Goku and it is not a new concept by any stretch either since characters such as Frieza have proven otherwise. Even in the BROLY movie Base Goku took hits from Ikari Broly.

What is the key to winning in battle?

Akira Toriyama:In battle, the most important thing is the size of your ki, and your control over it. Ki as a concept of course includes such spiritual powers as energy [genki], courage [yūki], and right-mindedness [shōki]11. No matter how much you train, there are limits to physical strength, and the only way to overcome that is through ki. I think Goku was able to approach the mightiest warriors in the universe through strengthening his ki.

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... agon-ball/

Yes. But it is also said in the manga the body type still plays a role. Ki and physicality both play a role in the end. It is even implied having the same Ki level does not mean your equal with someone else in stats. Recoome had the same ki level as Burter and Jeice yet Burter is the "fastest".

[Miracles]

That is a misconception. Ki level alone does not determine the stats of someone, the body type does too. Broly has been shown to endure attacks far stronger than him consistently against Vegeta and Goku and it is not a new concept by any stretch either since characters such as Frieza have proven otherwise. Even in the BROLY movie Base Goku took hits from Ikari Broly.

What is the key to winning in battle?

Akira Toriyama:In battle, the most important thing is the size of your ki, and your control over it. Ki as a concept of course includes such spiritual powers as energy [genki], courage [yūki], and right-mindedness [shōki]11. No matter how much you train, there are limits to physical strength, and the only way to overcome that is through ki. I think Goku was able to approach the mightiest warriors in the universe through strengthening his ki.

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... agon-ball/

Yes. But it is also said in the manga the body type still plays a role. Ki and physicality both play a role in the end. It is even implied having the same Ki level does not mean your equal with someone else in stats. Recoome had the same ki level as Burter and Jeice yet Burter is the "fastest".

I'm not saying similar Ki levels makes one equal in stats. However, it shows the stats are close, not disproportionate. Due to the close Ki levels.

[TheQuestioner]

I'm not saying similar Ki levels makes one equal in stats. However, it shows the stats are close, not disproportionate. Due to the close Ki levels.

It does not for Broly's case since he survived punishment he shouldn't have been able to if they were proportionate in the movie, why is this constantly being ignored here? Base Broly surviving SSG Vegeta's BBA, taking hits from SSJ Vegeta, SSG Vegeta are all good examples indicating he has a tanky body. What you said is also wrong. If you want to include the Kai anime, you have Mystic Gohan surviving the Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack from Bootenks. In the manga alone you have examples like Piccolo surviving the Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack point blank. There's not much significant evidence from the interview suggesting the gain is close for Broly. There's loads of evidence saying it isn't. Other people also have disproved that claim but for some reason they got ignored.

This is just some food for thought. But if the gain was that proportionate why are the characters consistently remarking beings with both great speed and power throughout the series?

[Miracles]

I'm not saying similar Ki levels makes one equal in stats. However, it shows the stats are close, not disproportionate. Due to the close Ki levels.

It does not for Broly's case since he survived punishment he shouldn't have been able to if they were proportionate in the movie, why is this constantly being ignored here? Base Broly surviving SSG Vegeta's BBA, taking hits from SSJ Vegeta, SSG Vegeta are all good examples indicating he has a tanky body. What you said is also wrong. If you want to include the Kai anime, you have Mystic Gohan surviving the Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack from Bootenks. In the manga alone you have examples like Piccolo surviving the Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack point blank. There's not much significant evidence from the interview suggesting the gain is close for Broly. There's loads of evidence saying it isn't. Other people also have disproved that claim but for some reason they got ignored.

This is just some food for thought. But if the gain was that proportionate why are the characters consistently remarking beings with both great speed and power throughout the series?

SSJ Gogeta took blows from Green Broly that he wasn't suppose to take too. You guys use inconsistencies to try and prove your point. The fact is, if Toriyama wanted to demonstrate that Gogeta and Broly wasn't close in power he would of made Gogeta give Broly the Gohan and Cell Two-hitter quitter.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

That example further proves things. You don't have to be that close to your opponent to take several blows without sustaining too much serious damage.

Broly was a big, muscled guy who being driven almost entirely by blind rage and madness during that whole ordeal. He only showed hesitation near the end where Gogeta started to really showcase his true power, and that was when he stopped taking the blows as well as before and when Gogeta decided to really cut loose.

There's a mental aspect to these fights as well, hence why surprise attacks do so much better, especially now in the current paradigm.

[ankokudaishogun]

Freeza.

Freeza is absurdly sturdy and resilient compared to others in his same bracket of Power Level.

[BagetaSama]

Here's a possible power-chain for the manga:

Moro arc UI Goku>Full-Power Moro 73>Suppressed Moro 73>>Full-Power Moro>SSBE Vegeta post-Yardrat>Moro arc Full-Power UI Omen Goku>Moro arc Suppressed UI Omen Goku~ToP UI Goku>>Moro arc SSB Goku>>Saganbo post-Moro absorbed power>>Moro arc Gohan>ToP arc SSB Goku>ToP arc Gohan

[Koitsukai]

Freeza lasted for like an hour, in his base form too, vs SS Broly, the Broly that forced the saiyans to go fuse... and that happened like 5 real-life minutes before Broly did something similar with Gogeta.
We also have Goku doing impossible stuff against Ikari Broly in base and as SS.

The movie has a lot of that going on, yet only Broly is considered to be "close" to his executioner.

[Noah]

How strong would be a hypothetical Golden God Cell?

Cell has Freeza genes, so training 4 months like the latter would not just make him strong but able to reach its further evolution.

Also he has the genes of the Saiyans that were able to reach the level of the Gods. Don't know what Cell could do to have use of the God Ki and not only having a power similar to SSJG but also increase to SSJB.

But considering he could, not just by tapping, but combining these unexplored potentials.

Would he WRECK characters like Black and Zamasu?

[Koitsukai]

How strong would be a hypothetical Golden God Cell?

Cell has Freeza genes, so training 4 months like the latter would not just make him strong but able to reach its further evolution.

Also he has the genes of the Saiyans that were able to reach the level of the Gods. Don't know what Cell could do to have use of the God Ki and not only having a power similar to SSJG but also increase to SSJB.

But considering he could, not just by tapping, but combining these unexplored potentials.

Would he WRECK characters like Black and Zamasu?

The gap between Cell and Golden Freeza should be like the gap between Perfect Cell and Namek Freeza, or something like that. If Golden Freeza is blue level, then Golden Cell should be above that, SSBKK(x10? x20?) tier I'd say. Zamasu isn't a threat, without his immortality he sucks in every media, and Black would be surpassed as well. They would have to fuse to take him out, IMO. Merged Zamasu wouldn't need immortality to deal with Golden Cell.
I'm not taking into account the god thing, so he should be even stronger with that. Probably Merged Zamasu would indeed need his immortality to face him. Jiren effortlessly knocks him out, though